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Mangrove Jack Empire Ale M15

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cederbusch

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There seem to be little written and reviewed about this yeast. I'm currently fermenting an English Bitter with it. Smells like arse, but tastes really awesome so far.

Any experience from this string out there?
 

GurraG

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It is most probably the same strain as the discontinued M03 Newcastle dark ale.
 

stpug

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It is most probably the same strain as the discontinued M03 Newcastle dark ale.
If that's the case then be prepared for pretty low attenuation. I used Newcastle dark a couple years ago and saw ~67-69% AA on low mashes (147-148°F). The yeast was fine enough, and certainly suitable for various styles, but grist composition and fermentability of the wort needed to be taken into account if you wanted much over 70%AA.

Edit: Then again, maybe they selectively breed or isolated higher attenuating cells and that's what makes the 'Empire' different. I've love to hear about the attenuation on this newer strain.
 
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cederbusch

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So, It´s been fermenting 2 weeks at this time. Last week in room temp. And it seems to be settled at 1.022. Question is, is there more suger to ferment and should I then pitch some Notty?

Or should I just accept that this one became a "Folköl", as it´s called in Swedish: a low alcohol beer. Just over 3 %.
 

stpug

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So, It´s been fermenting 2 weeks at this time. Last week in room temp. And it seems to be settled at 1.022. Question is, is there more suger to ferment and should I then pitch some Notty?

Or should I just accept that this one became a "Folköl", as it´s called in Swedish: a low alcohol beer. Just over 3 %.
I will assume from your post that you experienced pretty low attenuation. If so, then I guess M15 my be purely a rebranded Newcastle Dark Ale. Back then I also ended up with 2.9% dark mild ale. While not the exact beer I was after, it was an excellent drinker for 2.9% ABV. You could drink 3 in a row; they were quite flavorful; and continue with your day as normal. I personally chalked it up as a learning experience and know how to use this strain in the future.

The problem with low attenuation strains is that they consume nearly all of the simplest sugars in the wort leaving only the most complex. From a flavor and body standpoint, this is great. From the standpoint of trying to finish the ferment, it's hard for any non vigorous yeast to do much with those complex sugars without some kind of headstart from simple sugars. You may be able to coax a couple point attenuation using a maltotriose-capable yeast strain that's at peak activity, but aside from that I don't think it's worth the effort. If you really want to then I would look at Saflager 34/70 pitched into a 1.040OG 1.5 liter starter at ~65F (no stir plate); let it hit high krausen (12-36 hours); and pour that into your fermenter at that time. That should give you the best bet of attenuation to a higher degree.
 

MyQuL

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As others have said, this is probably the Newcastle Dark Ale rebranded. I was aware tha this yeast had a lowish attenuation when I used it so I added some golden syrup (a partially inverted sugar which is very common over here in the UK) and ended up with an attenuation in the low 70s but it made a really nice bitter as these GS added it's own flavour as well as bumping the attenuation a bit
 
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cederbusch

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Well, that´s not what Mangrove themselves told me in a written email. They said it´s a close match, but not just renamed. But, maybe that´s what they should say according to their product manual. :)

Anyhoo, couple of more days has passed and it´s now down to 1.016-17. Hard to say with manual readings. Decided to let this sit some more time and see if there´s more to ferment.
 

amcclai7

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How's the flavor? Reading the description its says, "dark fruit" This is the main thing I'm after with English strains. Does this ester come through, similar to the 002?
 
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cederbusch

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Only just got this beer on keg. I'll give it a couple more days and then I'll give my report. It's very yeasty right now.

My plan is to try this yeast with other types of beer to learn how this yeast tastes.
 

amcclai7

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Great! Please report back when you've gotten a taste. I love dried yeast but as of yet have not been able to find a dried English strain that I like (S-04 and Windsor I've tried but don't like either)
 

henrikson

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I've used the M15 once for a "brownish ale" with quite nice results, went from 1.052 to 1.012 so 76% AA. It did take bit more than a month and having read about the yeast I was a bit scared waiting for it... :D I mashed at 66.5 C (~152F).

Thinking back my recipe wasn't the best but it did become a lot better when it got a few months older. Also definitely some dried fruit esters, but I did ferment quite warm, around 23C (~73F).
 
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cederbusch

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So i´ve evaluated 2 liters of that beer now. It´s definitely some dark fruit going on. I had to google what to look for, and then I could taste it.

The beer has a "sulfury" tone. I don´t know if the yeast is to blame. Rather the high volumes of sulfates I think. This needs to mature some what more, and then I hope that taste fades.

I will try this yeast more to determine if I´m going to keep it in my stock or not.
 
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cederbusch

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Some more thought on this yeast. That sulfury taste is still present, but much less intense. This beer now tastes pretty darn good.

I made a clone of NewCastle Brown Ale two weeks ago. And this time a fermented half of it with M015, and half with Whitbread (WLP1099), just to see the difference. It´s not finished yet, but I only needed the small sample recovered for a refractometer measurement, to tell that this "sulfury" taste is a signum for M015.

I have yet to decide if I like it or not. But I think that as a thumb rule, this strain needs quite some time to get to it´s peak.
 

Jens_H

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Can you tell us about the results of your New Castle Brown Ale split batch? I'm excited to learn more about the Empire Ale yeast, as I am considering using it in a Christmas Ale.
 

QoB

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I report that this yeast is a slow starter and stalled on my batch of Porter.
I now put it in the hate ingredients category next to Pride of Ringwood and Fuggles hops.
 

rmeskill

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Just started an English Bitter with this strain. I've had horrific experiences with S04 (terribly off-flavors to the point where I've probably dumped 4 batches at this point) so I'd used Liberty Bell (M35) for the last run and it came out good if a bit thin-flavored, so MLHBS suggested this one (M15) to make up for it. I didn't read up on it, though, so it took a full 24 hours to get going at 17C/65F and now it seems I'm looking at about 3.2% instead of 3.6%. I'm so used to S05 I don't know what to do with low-attenuation yeasts! Not sure if anyone's still following this thread, but I'll update with my results and, if it turns out well, a recipe.
 

thehaze

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Low attenuating yeast usually require a lower mash temp. and possibly some sugar in the last minutes of boil. English strains - but this is not a general thing - will require some sugar, low mash temp. and maybe some elevated ferm. temps. to properly ferment and attenuate.
 

Smellyglove

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It's weird that they write that it's a higly flocculent strain and has high attenuation. I've used it once and that was the last time I've used MJ yeast. Poor attenuation (comparing to that statement that it should have "high"), and hazy. Just the opposite of what MJ states it should be.
 

Northern_Brewer

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Well, that´s not what Mangrove themselves told me in a written email. They said it´s a close match, but not just renamed. But, maybe that´s what they should say according to their product manual. :)
According to internet rumour, M03 has been linked to White Labs WLP038 Manchester and the discontinued Lallemand/Danstar Manchester strain. If they were rebadging the Danstar version and it got discontinued, then that might explain the change to M15 - but we don't know if they just grew it up from another source or started using something different. Or the change might involve adding additional strains to stop it growing true when repitched.

If it is the Newky Brown strain, then that would link it to Brewlab F40, which is meant to be very estery, and with weak attenuation might be suitable as a dry yeast for NEIPAs?

If it _is_ WLP038 then that means it's a member of the saison family and probably POF+, might be interesting to take a jamjar of it and ferment it hot just to see what it smells like?
 

fredoinjapan

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There seem to be little written and reviewed about this yeast. I'm currently fermenting an English Bitter with it. Smells like arse, but tastes really awesome so far.

Any experience from this string out there?
I've found a recipe for Brewdog's Jet Black Heart milk stout that calls for the Jack Mangrove Empire yeast. I can't get it here in Japan so far and it looks like you do not recommend it anyway. Have you experimented further and can you recommend a different strain that might be more common and might help with a milk stout? Thanks
 

Northern_Brewer

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Given that (almost) all MJ strains are repacks of other yeast, one has to look around and think what it might be. The low attenuation and ABV tolerance makes me think Windsor, but I’ve not tried it myself yet.
 

Miraculix

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Brewed a dark mild with it, went from 1.035 to 1.016 in about 5 days, weak attenuation, about 54%. It is Ok for this beer, as I overshot my gravity anyway. Bottled it, let's see how it goes, so far it smells really good (alc free week, no taste test though). I mashed quite high, did not think that the yeast has THAT low of an attenuation. Anyway, 2.5% is ok for the beer I was after.
 
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