Making Traditional rice Wine. Cheap, Fun, and Different

[Gar]

ok guys here is a experiment i put together 2 days ago. 8 cups of thai jasmine rice 4 cups water 4 cups apple cider. used the rest of the gallon of cider in a 2 gallon glass cookie jar put the rice in one large scoop at a time and stirred it in. this left about 3 fingers from the top then saw 3 bananas on the counter and pilled mashed them to a paste put them in mixed it up and let cool. i then put some yeast on top red star pasteur champagne and let it ride for about 1.5-2 hours then crushed up 2 large yeast balls and about 4 tbl spoons of ryr mixed it in. this took off very quick less then a day i saw liquid. in 1.5 days there 4 fingers of liquid with some rice on top and some on the bottom noticed the stuff on top looked a little more solid so i mixed it in. tried what was on the spoon it was sweet but the bananas overpowered everything. a few questions
1 do you think by putting the yeast in early there is a chance i can get away from the high liquid to rice ratio?
2 i understand alot of the liquid on the bottom my be apple cider but the rice soaked this all up at first. could this have caused the fermintation to happen everywhere else faster?

 

[Gar]

o
1 do you think by putting the yeast in early there is a chance i can get away from the high liquid to rice ratio?

sorry guys i meant to say do you think i can get away from the off tastes from the high liquid to rice ratio

 

[FatDragon]

ok guys here is a experiment i put together 2 days ago. 8 cups of thai jasmine rice 4 cups water 4 cups apple cider. used the rest of the gallon of cider in a 2 gallon glass cookie jar put the rice in one large scoop at a time and stirred it in. this left about 3 fingers from the top then saw 3 bananas on the counter and pilled mashed them to a paste put them in mixed it up and let cool. i then put some yeast on top red star pasteur champagne and let it ride for about 1.5-2 hours then crushed up 2 large yeast balls and about 4 tbl spoons of ryr mixed it in. this took off very quick less then a day i saw liquid. in 1.5 days there 4 fingers of liquid with some rice on top and some on the bottom noticed the stuff on top looked a little more solid so i mixed it in. tried what was on the spoon it was sweet but the bananas overpowered everything. a few questions
1 do you think by putting the yeast in early there is a chance i can get away from the high liquid to rice ratio?
2 i understand alot of the liquid on the bottom my be apple cider but the rice soaked this all up at first. could this have caused the fermintation to happen everywhere else faster?

Well, the scientific method of experimentation exemplified by Leadgolem is to compare multiple batches with one or two variations to a control batch. Your experiment is more of a point-and-shoot with a bunch of variations and no control, so many things could change the outcome.

Steaming your rice with diluted apple cider is a very interesting idea as it will flavor the rice before fermenting, and add some extra sugar to boot.

Adding apple cider to the steamed rice should increase your yield and lower your sweetness as it allows the yeast to ferment more alcohol out of the rice sugars before reaching its terminal percentage, and it should change the flavor profile by adding apple. Whether the sweetness it adds with its own sugars balances out the sweetness that is lost by fermenting more of the rice sugars will be interesting to see.

I'm not so excited about the bananas - that sounds like a good way to infect your whole batch. That won't necessarily make it unhealthy, but could make it gross enough to dump.

As for the way you pitched your yeast, I don't really know enough about that to have an intelligent comment. Maybe since it's a different strain it will ferment some of the apple sugars that the rice yeasts might not be able to deal with.

All told, I'd say you've got a decent chance of ending up with a large yield of tasty wine, and a smaller chance of ending up with something infected or just kind've off-putting.

As for the four fingers of liquid already, I'd be surprised if you've got that much alcohol fermented out of the rice so soon, but it could happen. My guess would be that a lot of that is the cider.

 

[Gar]

mmmm not to much of a scientific guy more of a lets slap this together and see what happens. mostly i pitched the yeast packet early to see if that might get rid of the off flavors people are getting from the higher then 1.5 water ratio.

 

[Leadgolem]

mmmm not to much of a scientific guy more of a lets slap this together and see what happens. mostly i pitched the yeast packet early to see if that might get rid of the off flavors people are getting from the higher then 1.5 water ratio.

I believe that's due to the growth of something in the rice wine that produces an acid. A previous experiment I ran indicated that high alcohol levels in the solution would inhibit that growth, even with the rice fully submerged in liquid. With the high liquid, sugar, and additional yeast, it is possible you will get enough alcohol fast enough that the bug producing the acid will be inhibited before it gets going. It's also possible that it will love the sugar and just go nuts with acid production. I don't think we know exactly what it is that produces the acid at this point.

It should be interesting to see what happens.

 

[trbig]

The rice wine we have been making is sweet because there's so much left-over sugar after the yeast gets the alc % up to where it becomes dormant and the starches continue to get broken down.

So by adding something sweet, you'll just end up with even more sugar left over. After sitting a bit and clearing out, the batch I made with dried mango is really .. really... REALLY sweet. Almost too sweet for me to drink. It's like a cheap Moscoto wine sweet. That prompted me to try a batch with added water at 1.3 times the weight of the rice. I steamed the rice with 1.5 cups water per cup of rice and cooked up 10 pounds, then added 13 pounds of water (Along with a package of RYR and 10 yeast balls) It's been bubbling tremendously out of the air lock. I took a peek this morning, and there's no traces of mold, just a cake on top full of little CO2 escape holes. All the rice was covered by a LOT of water when I first put the lid on this.









What I'm trying to do, is find the point where the rice starch is fully broken down and the sugar is fully consumed by the yeast. Too much water, and you don't get the alcohol potential you could have had. Too little water, and you leave residual sugar behind that could have been made into alcohol. When/if that happens, as per the Cinese recipe I'm following, you should have a wine with no sweetness at all and a high alcohol volume. Imagine a shot of 80 proof whiskey that you've diluted exactly in half with water. That's the taste I get from my Chinese friend's rice wine. If that point is found, and if NO sugar left is not what you desire, then maybe you can play with the amount of added water between none and 1.3 to come up with something flavored to your liking?

If you like it how it is, then "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I like it how it is, but I also liked his rice wine.

 

[trbig]

I believe that's due to the growth of something in the rice wine that produces an acid. A previous experiment I ran indicated that high alcohol levels in the solution would inhibit that growth, even with the rice fully submerged in liquid. With the high liquid, sugar, and additional yeast, it is possible you will get enough alcohol fast enough that the bug producing the acid will be inhibited before it gets going. It's also possible that it will love the sugar and just go nuts with acid production. I don't think we know exactly what it is that produces the acid at this point.

It should be interesting to see what happens.

Talking with that Chinese friend, he said they don't make rice wine in the summer months because it makes it sour. So apparently there's something going on with temps..

 

[Leadgolem]

Talking with that Chinese friend, he said they don't make rice wine in the summer months because it makes it sour. So apparently there's something going on with temps..

True. I've run across two different methods for controlling the acid level. The first is by limiting the water, which is where the amount of water used to cook the rice becomes very important. The second was by taking the rice wine through a series of temperature swings.

You also need a little warmth to get good starch conversion. First warm, then a long sit at lower temps, then warm again for a little while, then back to cool, lather rinse repeat. That's pretty much the sake method. Along with phased introduction of additional starch and water.

The benefit of controlling the temp is you can use more water and yield more wine from the same amount of input starch. The benefit of controlling the water is that you don't have to worry nearly as much about temperature.

RYR also seems to inhibit whatever bug it is that produces the acid.

 

[edds5p0]

True. I've run across two different methods for controlling the acid level. The first is by limiting the water, which is where the amount of water used to cook the rice becomes very important. The second was by taking the rice wine through a series of temperature swings. You also need a little warmth to get good starch conversion. First warm, then a long sit at lower temps, then warm again for a little while, then back to cool, lather rinse repeat. That's pretty much the sake method. Along with phased introduction of additional starch and water. The benefit of controlling the temp is you can use more water and yield more wine from the same amount of input starch. The benefit of controlling the water is that you don't have to worry nearly as much about temperature. RYR also seems to inhibit whatever bug it is that produces the acid.

I have to give you props, your work throughout the various experiments you have done has been been very helpful to me. Thanks for sharing your findings!

 

[Leadgolem]

I have to give you props, your work throughout the various experiments you have done has been been very helpful to me. Thanks for sharing your findings!

Not a problem. It's not like we are in competing businesses. Sharing data helps everybody.

Does anyone care to make a suggestion for a new series of experiments?

 

[Gar]

The rice wine we have been making is sweet because there's so much left-over sugar after the yeast gets the alc % up to where it becomes dormant and the starches continue to get broken down.

So by adding something sweet, you'll just end up with even more sugar left over. After sitting a bit and clearing out, the batch I made with dried mango is really .. really... REALLY sweet. Almost too sweet for me to drink. It's like a cheap Moscoto wine sweet. That prompted me to try a batch with added water at 1.3 times the weight of the rice. I steamed the rice with 1.5 cups water per cup of rice and cooked up 10 pounds, then added 13 pounds of water (Along with a package of RYR and 10 yeast balls) It's been bubbling tremendously out of the air lock. I took a peek this morning, and there's no traces of mold, just a cake on top full of little CO2 escape holes. All the rice was covered by a LOT of water when I first put the lid on this.









What I'm trying to do, is find the point where the rice starch is fully broken down and the sugar is fully consumed by the yeast. Too much water, and you don't get the alcohol potential you could have had. Too little water, and you leave residual sugar behind that could have been made into alcohol. When/if that happens, as per the Cinese recipe I'm following, you should have a wine with no sweetness at all and a high alcohol volume. Imagine a shot of 80 proof whiskey that you've diluted exactly in half with water. That's the taste I get from my Chinese friend's rice wine. If that point is found, and if NO sugar left is not what you desire, then maybe you can play with the amount of added water between none and 1.3 to come up with something flavored to your liking?

If you like it how it is, then "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I like it how it is, but I also liked his rice wine.

i would think the addition of apple cider will dilute the sugars from the rice wine even though there is sugars in the cider i do not think there is anything close to the fermented rice.
a little update the liquid level is now 7 fingers high smells very fruity mostly banana most of the rice is now on the bottom about 1 finger thick still on top.

 

[Leadgolem]

Please keep us updated. I'm toying with the idea of doing a water addition experiment. Though I'm still open to suggestions.

 

[Gar]

Please keep us updated. I'm toying with the idea of doing a water addition experiment. Though I'm still open to suggestions.

very good im interested in making it a lot less sweet the added bonus of making more alcohol would kick azz. ill pull some to the side if this works and add some water to see what happens

 

[Leadgolem]

very good im interested in making it a lot less sweet the added bonus of making more alcohol would kick azz. ill pull some to the side if this works and add some water to see what happens

Actually I was thinking of doing the experiment somewhat like what you are doing. Only with more levels of water additions.

Cook the rice like normal. Pitch like normal. Then add, 50%, 100%, 130%, and 150% of the weight of the cooked rice in water. Then observer the results. If the results are poor, then I could see running a second series at 10%, 20%, 30%, and 40%.

I believe my last experiment showed that the organism that saccharifies the rice doesn't have any trouble with the extra liquid. The real question would be in acid level. Once we have a series with good flavor with the additional water, the same series would need to be rerun with the RYR.

It would be nice to run both RYR and white rice wine sets at the same time, but that's a fairly cumbersome experiment to run. Not setting it up, but harvesting that many small batches all at once.

 

[Leadgolem]

Hmm, guess what I'm cooking rice for now.

 

[Gar]

kinda makes you wish you could make 20 pounds of rice at once. but none the less i gotta give you and many others on this thread thanks for the insane amount of sharing tips and tricks.

 

[Leadgolem]

kinda makes you wish you could make 20 pounds of rice at once. but none the less i gotta give you and many others on this thread thanks for the insane amount of sharing tips and tricks.

True, but rice cookers that big are really expensive.

So I cooked 1.5 cups of sweet rice with the typical 1:1.5 ratio of rice to water. It weighted 716 grams. I'm worried that a full 1.5 cups of dry rice plus the extra water isn't going to fit in my jars. So I'll be running half the usual experimental batch size. .75 cups of dry rice or 358 grams of cooked rice. Here are the intended batch contents. Of course, I'll likely be off by a few grams. I'll record the actual numbers when I do the batches. I'll cook all of the rice tonight, and then weigh it out into the jars tomorrow.

1. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. (Control)
2. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 179 grams water. (50%)
3. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 358 grams water. (100%)
4. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 465 grams water. (130%)
5. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 537 grams water. (150%)
6. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 4.5 tsp crushed RYR. (RYR Control)
7. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 179 grams water. 4.5 tsp crushed RYR. (50%)
8. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 358 grams water. 4.5 tsp crushed RYR. (100%)
9. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 465 grams water. 4.5 tsp crushed RYR. (130%)
10. 358 grams cooked sweet rice. 0.5 grams ARL. 537 grams water. 4.5 tsp crushed RYR. (150%)

This time I'm numbering the jars, or I'll never be able to keep them straight.

I know I said I wasn't going to post them here anymore, but I also remembering somebody booing that idea.

 

[Leadgolem]

That's very odd. I just checked on the rice and the cooker shut off before it was done. Stirred it up and I'm running it through another cycle. Hopefully it will gelatinize all of the starch this time.

 

[Leadgolem]

Well, the second time around all of the starch gelatinized. The cooker even managed not to burn any of the rice. I'm not sure what the problem was the first time, but I don't think it's going to throw the experiment off. I've got a total of 9 cups of cooked sweet rice cooling now.

 

[Leadgolem]

So, I cooked a total of 9 cups of dry sweet rice. Inoculated the entire thing with 6 grams of ARL. Weighed out the rice into the first five jars. Added the powdered RYR to the remaining rice. Weighed those 5 jars out. Labeled all the jars, and added the water. I hit all of my intended weights within 3 grams, so I didn't find it nessary to record those slight differences. I ended up with a jar full of sweet rice and RYR as leftovers. That was expected as I made more rice then the batches called for. I didn't want any of the experimental jars to be under weight.

We then took a family photo and I tucked them all back into the case of mason jars. You will probably notice a difference between some of the batches with the same weights. Not all the jars are the same brand, so the rice+water comes up to different points on a few of the jars. I'm somewhat concerned that the 150% jars are going to make a mess once they start fermenting. I'm thinking of moving the 130% and 150% batches into a 5 gallon bucket. That would mean keeping then in another location, and at a slightly different temperature though. So, I'm reluctant to do so.

Something that struck me when I was doing this, is that even a 50% addition of water by weight is a lot of water to add to this process.

 

[jak1010]

Very impressive! I love all of the ARL batches and experiments..

It paves the way for me since all of my batches are now done with ARL.

Please let me know if/when you need more and I'll be glad to sponsor more tests. You must be running low by now.

 

[Leadgolem]

Very impressive! I love all of the ARL batches and experiments..

It paves the way for me since all of my batches are now done with ARL.

Please let me know if/when you need more and I'll be glad to sponsor more tests. You must be running low by now.

Will do. I'm actually not that low yet though. I've got 2 unopened packets and a couple of grams in an opened packet. That's why I ran the ratio experiment first. ARL is some really concentrated stuff.

 

[Leadgolem]

Ok, I just moved batches 4,5,9, and 10 to 1 gallon cracker jars. I kept having visions of the kind of mess these things make when they spill over. Especially the RYR. That's capable of making a truly impressive, and red, mess. Since I had to agitate the jars a good deal to get everything out, I'm also going to shake the rest of the jars.

 

[Gar]

Update the rice is completely submerged took the lid off it smelled boozy took a taste very hot the alcohol is blazing in this batch. the fruit smells and tastes are taking a back seat to it.

 

[FatDragon]

Should've taken a picture, but I put my first batch in two jars. The one I've been sipping on remained cloudy, but there's a slow settling of the cloudy rice solids in the second jar and what's left on top is a clear yellow liquor, slightly less sweet and tastier than the cloudy stuff (though that stuff's really nice too). Now I'm really tempted to make a huge batch in my extra fermenting bucket and bottle it so I can age a couple gallons and let the whole batch settle clear. Biggest downsides: I can only do 3 1/2 cups of rice at a time in my rice cooker, and my girlfriend would definitely think I'm an alcoholic (not even close - I maybe average a drink a day) and maybe put the nix on homebrewing - it's a new hobby for me so her support/acceptance is still very volatile.

 

[Roughster]

ok going to try this for sure

 

[MarcusKillion]

I was just out looking for some gallon jars and they are pricey if you can find them . so I went to Walmart and bought a half gallon jar of pickles for about 3.50 . Not bad .toss the pickles and make wine . Might go to Sams Club and get something by the gallon

 

[Gar]

I was just out looking for some gallon jars and they are pricey if you can find them . so I went to Walmart and bought a half gallon jar of pickles for about 3.50 . Not bad .toss the pickles and make wine . Might go to Sams Club and get something by the gallon

go back to walmart look in there section were they sell plates and glasses and you should find a 1 and 2.5 gallon glass cookie jars there 9 bux here it may be a few isles over but there in that section.

 

[MarcusKillion]

Got some Sushi rice . Used 6 cups with 3 yeast balls . Found this great 2 gallon jar with a lid , it is nice and heavy , at Kmart for 15 bucks . Lid just sets on but it is heavy and built like the lid on a crock pot . should work great .
also found these 1/2 gallon mason jars at ace for 12.99 a six pack . http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2841638&cp=2568443.2568448.11927733.11927746

 

[Gar]

thats the same ones they sell at walmart