Making the jump, looking at 120 versus 240

[Kob]

Hi guys,

Well I've had it with propane. It seems as a neighbors fart will cause the flame to go out and I'm moving on up. I had a friend rebuild his electric kettle and I was able to nab a full sized keg with the basket and all necessary holes drilled. He gave me two Camco 02852 units which are 1500 watts at 120 volts. I have a garage I'll be brewing in, and have two circuits available, one 20A the other 15A. About 5 feet inside the garage door, I have a laundry room with a 30A 240 plug for the dryer.

I'm slightly torn between using the two circuits, or using the 240 with an extension cord. I have the coils, which are so cheap it's not that big of a deal to replace if I'm going to 240.

My "plan" is this, use the two circuits when I need the real heat, and one for the mash. I've been reading and researching to the point where I think I'm actually getting dumber, but I've got to at least make the decision between the two 120 circuits, or the one 240.

I read through the "woes of a 120v brewer" and am really not that concerned about using the two 120v circuits.


Mike

 

[mbobhat]

Hi guys,

Well I've had it with propane. It seems as a neighbors fart will cause the flame to go out and I'm moving on up. I had a friend rebuild his electric kettle and I was able to nab a full sized keg with the basket and all needed holes drilled. He gave me two Camco 02852 units which are 1500 watts at 120 volts. I have a garage I'll be brewing in, and have two circuits available, one 20A the other 15A. About 5 feet inside the garage door, I have a laundry room with a 30A 240 plug for the dryer.

I'm slightly torn between using the two circuits, or using the 240 with an extension cord. I have the coils, which are so cheap it's not that big of a deal to replace if I'm going to 240.

My "plan" is this, use the two circuits when I need the real heat, and one for the mash. I've been reading and researching to the point where I think I'm actually getting dumber, but I've got to at least make the decision between the two 120 circuits, or the one 240.

I read through the "woes of a 120v brewer" and am really not that concerned about using the two 120v circuits.


Mike

I'm no electrician but I would think that it would be a wash either way in terms of efficiency. You will have some losses in the double 120V because of two hookups instead of one, but you said you would run the 240V with an extension cord, and I would think that would be worse. Now if you have a proper sized extension cord for 30 AMP 240V, then that would probably be ok, but pricey.

Let us know how it goes

 

[Kob]

I thought so too. one of those 6:1 half a dozen the other situations. I'm leaning towards the 120v setup so I have less parts to buy, and it's able to be brought to other people's houses for brew days.

I'm building the box and installing everything Wednesday so I have a few days to iron out the details and I'll have help. Sometimes you just need to create a thread to get an idea out. ha ha

 

[NoahBeach]

Hi guys,

Well I've had it with propane. It seems as a neighbors fart will cause the flame to go out and I'm moving on up. I had a friend rebuild his electric kettle and I was able to nab a full sized keg with the basket and all needed holes drilled. He gave me two Camco 02852 units which are 1500 watts at 120 volts. I have a garage I'll be brewing in, and have two circuits available, one 20A the other 15A. About 5 feet inside the garage door, I have a laundry room with a 30A 240 plug for the dryer.

I'm slightly torn between using the two circuits, or using the 240 with an extension cord. I have the coils, which are so cheap it's not that big of a deal to replace if I'm going to 240.

My "plan" is this, use the two circuits when I need the real heat, and one for the mash. I've been reading and researching to the point where I think I'm actually getting dumber, but I've got to at least make the decision between the two 120 circuits, or the one 240.

I read through the "woes of a 120v brewer" and am really not that concerned about using the two 120v circuits.


Mike

The big question before any suggestion can be made is what is your maximum desired batch size, 3000w is going to be painful (maybe impossible, depends on your kettles) for 10G+?

Also, how are you handling GFCI? Are both 120v garage outlets GFCI outlets? If not need to replace those ($10/outlet and 10 minutes). If you end up on the 240v route (which is what I recommend regardless) you'll need to either replace the breaker with a GFCI breaker, or do what a lot of brewers do and add a SPA Panel (GFCI built in, usually cheaper than GFCI breaker).

240V gives you more scalability, and can shorten your brewday because you can go with higher wattage elements. With 120V you're pretty much stuck at 2000W elements (20 amp circuit) or 1500w (15 amp circuit).

I run a 30amp 240v brewery (5500w elements, pretty standard) and love it.

You'll love electric too, not being chained to propane tanks is awesome + cheaper + safer when done correctly.

But really, make sure you have GFCI handled, it's not an option for electric breweries.

 

[Kob]

Understandable. I'm planning on 5 gal batches, and see no real desire to go 10 in the immediate future. I believe, and I'm sure I'll need an electrician to assist with this, that if I add another 30A circuit for the garage I'll need to run more power to the house. This is part of the issue I'm hesitant about upgrading and adding another circuit.

Maybe I just need to man up and add the circuit.

 

[Kob]

Here's a slightly stupid question, if I have a 30A 240 right inside the garage, am I just able to add another outlet in the garage off that? Or would I need to run a whole other circuit and ad a panel?

 

[iijakii]

I have a dual 1500w setup and love it, and I've also had a 240v setup. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask. Honestly either way will work, go with whatever is easiest and cheapest in my opinion.

 

[NoahBeach]

Here's a slightly stupid question, if I have a 30A 240 right inside the garage, am I just able to add another outlet in the garage off that? Or would I need to run a whole other circuit and ad a panel?

Could you do it? Yes. Would it be up to code, don't think so, but an electrician would need to confirm that.

You could make/buy a 30 amp extension cord (10 awg) with inline GFCI that just plugs into your dryer outlet and then runs to the garage to your brew panel. You would unplug the dryer when in use and plug it back in after brew day.

As far as the circuit and the panel. If you added a new circuit with a GFCI breaker you would not need the panel, if you added a new circuit with a normal breaker you would need the SPA Panel (or inline GFCI on extension cord) to provide GFCI.

For 5 gallon only batches though, there isn't any reason you couldnt stick with 120v though!

 

[trimixdiver1]

Here's a slightly stupid question, if I have a 30A 240 right inside the garage, am I just able to add another outlet in the garage off that? Or would I need to run a whole other circuit and ad a panel?

If there is a 30a 240v circuit in the garage, then yes you can, what was this for? If your panel is in the garage, your wide open on what you can do.

 

[mbobhat]

Here's a slightly stupid question, if I have a 30A 240 right inside the garage, am I just able to add another outlet in the garage off that? Or would I need to run a whole other circuit and ad a panel?

I would take NoahBeach's advice. I'm pretty sure those 30 Amp circuits are dedicated for that reason. That doesn't mean you can't add a spa panel to your box if you wanna go 240V. You aren't running your dryer all the time so you wouldn't need say 200 amp service instead of 100 amp you may have.

120V pros: Portability only for 5 gal or less. But then again Propane is also really friggin portable.

Just depends on your priorities for your system. (Full disclosure I'm a propane guy because I'm lazy and renting now. Maybe when I move I'll do 240V brewing in my new basement)

 

[maierhof]

The big question before any suggestion can be made is what is your maximum desired batch size, 3000w is going to be painful (maybe impossible, depends on your kettles) for 10G+?

Also, how are you handling GFCI? Are both 120v garage outlets GFCI outlets? If not need to replace those ($10/outlet and 10 minutes). If you end up on the 240v route (which is what I recommend regardless) you'll need to either replace the breaker with a GFCI breaker, or do what a lot of brewers do and add a SPA Panel (GFCI built in, usually cheaper than GFCI breaker).

240V gives you more scalability, and can shorten your brewday because you can go with higher wattage elements. With 120V you're pretty much stuck at 2000W elements (20 amp circuit) or 1500w (15 amp circuit).

I run a 30amp 240v brewery (5500w elements, pretty standard) and love it.

You'll love electric too, not being chained to propane tanks is awesome + cheaper + safer when done correctly.

But really, make sure you have GFCI handled, it's not an option for electric breweries.

This is exactly what I did - I have two 30 amp GFCI breakers in my garage and used one of them with a proper extension cord which I ended up building myself using the electric brewery as my guide. I have to say the pickup you will get on 240 vs 120 is more considerable that you first think. I used 120 for a while on my rig before I was able to have an electrician come and double check my work before I went to 240. I absolutely love the 240 now - but I am at 10g+. If you are at 5g and have no intention to go up, perhaps you want to look at the double 120 to start due to it being cheaper and more simple.

Let the electrician tell you what you need - it is too hard for us to guess what type of system you actually have and help you figure out what you exactly need. If you still feel like going to 240 - please read this post first: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=145019
Then do your homework on the first thread I gave you. Please have an electrician come in to help you due to your experience level with electricity - your safety is primary.

 

[Kob]

I had my dad come over an take a look. He's a mechanical engineer and has quite a bit of electrical experience. His recommendation was to have an extension cord from the dryer plug in to the brew controller. He brought over 15 feet of extension cord for me too which will help. Looks like it'll be 240 for me. Pretty happy with that decision.

At some point I'll be removing the electric stove and converting to gas. When I do that I'll run a new box into the garage.

EDIT: Now that I'm using 240 I have to replace the elements. I have two holes and with my research I'm also not to sure about a double versus single setup. With the 240 I can now have substantially more watts, and/or use a single element. I'll do some looking around on this unless you guys have a recommendation off hand.

Thanks for the help. I'm really excited to make this improvement and you guys have been awesome on here.

 

[augiedoggy]

I had my dad come over an take a look. He's a mechanical engineer and has quite a bit of electrical experience. His recommendation was to have an extension cord from the dryer plug in to the brew controller. He brought over 15 feet of extension cord for me too which will help. Looks like it'll be 240 for me. Pretty happy with that decision.

At some point I'll be removing the electric stove and converting to gas. When I do that I'll run a new box into the garage.

EDIT: Now that I'm using 240 I have to replace the elements. I have two holes and with my research I'm also not to sure about a double versus single setup. With the 240 I can now have substantially more watts, and/or use a single element. I'll do some looking around on this unless you guys have a recommendation off hand.

Thanks for the help. I'm really excited to make this improvement and you guys have been awesome on here.

I assume both the holes are over an inch in size from the 120V elements? you can always install a reducer and add a whirlpool arm or perhaps a siteglass?

You certainly dont want 2 240v elements if your only doing 5-10g brews... I would however be sure to stick with a true ULWD element like the ripple elements most commonly used.
I only have a 30a line for my e brew setup and I chose to use 4500w ULWD elements which allow me to run both my 1000w rims tube and one of my kettle elements at once and still be under 27amps with the panel and pump running.

 

[Kob]

I do have two holes for the 1600W elements the previous brewer had in place for a 120v controller.

I am looking at getting two 2500W Camco elements to keep myself at a good draw and have room for additional equipment. Would two smaller elements be a bad idea versus one larger 5500W or similar?

The Kettle has a couple extra holes and I'm staring at it trying to figure out what to do with the others.

 

[augiedoggy]

I do have two holes for the 1600W elements the previous brewer had in place for a 120v controller.

I am looking at getting two 2500W Camco elements to keep myself at a good draw and have room for additional equipment. Would two smaller elements be a bad idea versus one larger 5500W or similar?

The Kettle has a couple extra holes and I'm staring at it trying to figure out what to do with the others.

are the camco elements ultra low watt density? if not I would say no its not better but others will disagree... I have never had any scorching issues with using ULWD elements...even on high gravity beers. you would be better off buying one element and plugging the other hole.. a 4500w element only draws between 17.5 and 19 amps at full power realistically... at least the few different ones I have checked do... 5500w is more like 22-23amps tops..(and really kinda overkill for 5 gallon brewing)

BTW your first post said the kettle was in need of having the holes drilled?

 

[Kob]

I said all needed holes were drilled. I fixed it for a little more clarification.

I cancelled my order for the two 2500W elements for the time being. They were the Camco 02492. My thought behind the two lower watts versus a single higher one, is the lower watts will draw less and have less pull versus a single higher one. But I might be way off there. This is certainly going to be a slow built. Things are starting to add up. Primarily a 30A 240 GFCI breaker.

 

[maierhof]

ahh - but that is where you shouldn't be afraid to protect your own life. Yes it costs money - but it WILL protect you. Call it insurance if you like...

 

[madscientist451]

First impression: Go with the 5500W 240v. It sucks not having enough power.
Its also simple, just one element, not two. Forget about going portable. How do you know you'll be able to get a 20 and 15 amp GFCI protected circuit at your friends house ?
Go to Lowes and buy the wire you need to make the 220v extension cord. Also get an electrical meter/tester from sears and research how to do it without frying yourself. If you can't handle that, just get a new propane burner.

 

[Kob]

"If I can't handle that." Great help. I'm simply looking at my options.

Good point as far as the portability goes. I'll look at the 5500w element in the am. I'm sure I can find something to do with the extra hole.

 

[Kob]

All the additional costs do is make this take longer. I'm more than happy to shell out 100 bucks to not get electrocuted to the insurance is definitely getting in place.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

240V would make the controller wiring easier than two 120v circuits.

If you want max flexibility you could silver solder two tri clover ferrules on your kettle and then you can plug and play whatever you want, and still use propane if you want to brew somewhere else. With the exception of your pre drilled kettle you have a blank slate, the hardest part is figuring out what you want. The build is the easy part.

 

[augiedoggy]

I said all needed holes were drilled. I fixed it for a little more clarification.

I cancelled my order for the two 2500W elements for the time being. They were the Camco 02492. My thought behind the two lower watts versus a single higher one, is the lower watts will draw less and have less pull versus a single higher one. But I might be way off there. This is certainly going to be a slow built. Things are starting to add up. Primarily a 30A 240 GFCI breaker.

It doesnt have to,
all you need is a spa panel... a 50a GFCI will have the same protection against a ground fault as a 30a breaker... the key is to use a 30a breaker in your main panel and use a 50a spa panel like the ones sold for $50 at home depot wired further down the circuit... I mount mine near my control panel and use it as a main power kill switch as well.. Many other here have the same setup.

 

[augiedoggy]

"If I can't handle that." Great help. I'm simply looking at my options.

Good point as far as the portability goes. I'll look at the 5500w element in the am. I'm sure I can find something to do with the extra hole.

again 4500w element will allow you to run pumps and such off the same line with less problems... 4500w is plenty for 10 and 5 gallon batches.... I get a very vigorous boil on 12 gallons of wort with my pid set to 75% duty cycle with one 4500w element... 5500w is more common and cheaper plus everyone has the bigger is better idea but in reality it doesn't always play out that way... In this case if you have a 30a line 4500w would give you more options and be plenty powerful enough. you can find the ripple 4500w elements for under $25 shipped on ebay new... thats what I did. and the reality is the 4500w ULWD elements are the same size and appear to have the same amount of heated surface area which would give the the 4500w element a lower watt density at the surface and make it even less prone to the possibility of scorching which many here with the 5500w elements have complained of on bigger beers.

 

[Firewalker11]

240V all the way! My first batch was gas, it was awful to attempt in -10 weather. Tried 110V and it too was awful in cold weather (20-30 degrees) but 220V is the sxhmitt! Tap to strike temp no matter the ambient in 20 minutes (9 gallons).

I would not go back.

 

[azazel1024]

First impression: Go with the 5500W 240v. It sucks not having enough power.
Its also simple, just one element, not two. Forget about going portable. How do you know you'll be able to get a 20 and 15 amp GFCI protected circuit at your friends house ?
Go to Lowes and buy the wire you need to make the 220v extension cord. Also get an electrical meter/tester from sears and research how to do it without frying yourself. If you can't handle that, just get a new propane burner.

I also would not worry about making it portable (other than possibly having to put it away if you don't have the space to leave it permenantly setup). Keep your propane setup for portability.

Portable electric setups are things like an induction hot plate for small batches.

Portable means you just have to put up with slumming it with the rest of the gas burner crowd. I am looking forward to when I can finally build my electric brewery. Sadly, it is probably at least 3-4 years away.

 

[augiedoggy]

240V all the way! My first batch was gas, it was awful to attempt in -10 weather. Tried 110V and it too was awful in cold weather (20-30 degrees) but 220V is the sxhmitt! Tap to strike temp no matter the ambient in 20 minutes (9 gallons).

I would not go back.

Why are you brewing outdoors at all? The main benefit of electric is you can brew indoors

 

[Firewalker11]

Steam, I have a huge roll in shower that has everything I need but power, a 20', 8ga cord fixes that but there is no easy to vent that kind of moisture out side.

I have a 200A panel in my shop but for the same reason, I can't brew their either, seasoned wood does not like swings in moisture like that.

 

[augiedoggy]

Steam, I have a huge roll in shower that has everything I need but power, a 20', 8ga cord fixes that but there is no easy to vent that kind of moisture out side.

I have a 200A panel in my shop but for the same reason, I can't brew their either, seasoned wood does not like swings in moisture like that.

I see...
I built a homemade hood out of foamboard and brew in front of a window with the top section open and a dual 10" window fan in it sucking out.. this allows me to brew in a spare bedroom with no condensation buildup at all...

 

[Lynchy217]

I say if you already have th Camco elements, go for the 120v. I use 120V in a way more annoying situation than what you have and it's great. While I was putting my build together, I priced out a 120V system and a 240V system, and even though the 120V system needed 2 of everything, they still came out to the same price. 120V GFCI is more readily available and way cheaper, and any wire you need will usually be for 15-20 amps rather than 30. If you have the two circuits available, you might as well go for it.

 

[augiedoggy]

I say if you already have th Camco elements, go for the 120v. I use 120V in a way more annoying situation than what you have and it's great. While I was putting my build together, I priced out a 120V system and a 240V system, and even though the 120V system needed 2 of everything, they still came out to the same price. 120V GFCI is more readily available and way cheaper, and any wire you need will usually be for 15-20 amps rather than 30. If you have the two circuits available, you might as well go for it.

2 1500w elements are going to be much slower and struggle to boil compared to a 240v system... plus I dont know of any ulwd (or even lwd off hand)120v elements so he would have to be careful when brewing heavy beers I've read many have to wrap towels around the kettle to insulate just to achieve a weak boil.
curios how much do you boil at once and do you need to insulate your kettle?

 

[iijakii]

I have a dual 1500W system and can get a healthy boil at 8gal. Haven't tried higher volumes. No insulation.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have a dual 1500W system and can get a healthy boil at 8gal. Haven't tried higher volumes. No insulation.

wow good to know.... I wonder why results vary so much... I know kettle dimensions have a bit to do with it... tall narrow kettles would boil easier than shallow wide ones.. how long does it take to reach a boil?

 

[iijakii]

From mashout to boil it's maybe 15, 20mins max. It does take me close to an hour to initially heatup the 9gal (strike and sparge/HERMS) to 150s though.

 

[NoahBeach]

... plus I dont know of any ulwd (or even lwd off hand)120v elements so he would have to be careful when brewing heavy beers

My suggestion is 240v system, but just for completeness sake, there are a some options.

All stainless 120V ULWD

Also you could run a 240v 5500w ripple element at 120v to get 1375W of power, that would be ILWD (insanely low watt density, term borrowed from Bobby_M).

Things are starting to add up. Primarily a 30A 240 GFCI breaker.

Check ebay, as long as you know what breakers your panel takes there is no reason you can't order them online. I got my 240v 30amp GE THQL-GFCI breaker off ebay for $45 shipped, brand new, Home Depot sells it for $120. I would have gone with the SPA Panel if I didn't find a deal on it, SPA Panels get you a GFCI breaker for about $60.

 

[Firewalker11]

@augiedoggie

Man, I wish I had a window in that room but I don't. The whole room including the sink toilet shower in pocket door access is close to 12 by 15 feet. There are no windows but there is an outside wall, the problem is that wall is also where the vent stack is so I can't put in a window.

 

[maierhof]

Originally Posted by iijakii
I have a dual 1500W system and can get a healthy boil at 8gal. Haven't tried higher volumes. No insulation.

Originally Posted by augiedoggy
wow good to know.... I wonder why results vary so much... I know kettle dimensions have a bit to do with it... tall narrow kettles would boil easier than shallow wide ones.. how long does it take to reach a boil?

I have an dedicated external HX - which is an 8gal pot with a 5500 ULWD at 30amps
If the water is ~70 - I can get it to boil temps within 18 min.
Within the steps I take during a mash - I can change temps within 4-6 min.
LOVING this thing!!

 

[Lynchy217]

2 1500w elements are going to be much slower and struggle to boil compared to a 240v system... plus I dont know of any ulwd (or even lwd off hand)120v elements so he would have to be careful when brewing heavy beers I've read many have to wrap towels around the kettle to insulate just to achieve a weak boil.
curios how much do you boil at once and do you need to insulate your kettle?

I built mine with 2 2kW elements that are LWD (pretty much on the edge of ULWD). The Camco ones he linked here are ULWD, so there's that. With 3kW and decent insulation, he should have no problem getting a rigorous boil. I very rarely use all 4kW except when initially getting it to boil temps, and that's without any insulation whatsoever. It might take a bit longer, but to me, at least it would probably be worth the $100-200 in savings.

 

[augiedoggy]

I built mine with 2 2kW elements that are LWD (pretty much on the edge of ULWD). The Camco ones he linked here are ULWD, so there's that. With 3kW and decent insulation, he should have no problem getting a rigorous boil. I very rarely use all 4kW except when initially getting it to boil temps, and that's without any insulation whatsoever. It might take a bit longer, but to me, at least it would probably be worth the $100-200 in savings.

I know it can easily be done with 4000w... even 3500w is plenty for boiling 5 gallon brews but I was under the impression that 3000w is borderline without help like insulation...

the Camco 02492 the OP mentioned are only LWD not ULWD.... they are only 6" long...vs say the 1500w ULWD ones mentioned above and below which are 12" long...

 

[augiedoggy]

My suggestion is 240v system, but just for completeness sake, there are a some options.

All stainless 120V ULWD

Also you could run a 240v 5500w ripple element at 120v to get 1375W of power, that would be ILWD (insanely low watt density, term borrowed from Bobby_M).



Check ebay, as long as you know what breakers your panel takes there is no reason you can't order them online. I got my 240v 30amp GE THQL-GFCI breaker off ebay for $45 shipped, brand new, Home Depot sells it for $120. I would have gone with the SPA Panel if I didn't find a deal on it, SPA Panels get you a GFCI breaker for about $60.

ahh yes I forget about the ones bobby sells... There are not commonly found elswhere...

 

[Lynchy217]

I know it can easily be done with 4000w... even 3500w is plenty for boiling 5 gallon brews but I was under the impression that 3000w is borderline without help like insulation...

the Camco 02492 the OP mentioned are only LWD not ULWD.... they are only 6" long...vs say the 1500w ULWD ones mentioned above and below which are 12" long...

Really? Huh, the Amazon page for them indicates ULWD.. Either way, I have LWD elements in my build, and I've never had issues with scorching. I do recirculate, though.