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Making Extract More Fermentable?

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landhoney

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Anybody heard of this? I brew AG, but this is interesting for extract/partial brewers I think.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/archive/Jamil12-31-07.mp3
This is Jamil's Belgian Golden Strong show, the relevant info starts ~28 minutes into the show. Essentially you do a mini-mash with the extract, and the enzymes in the grain(2-row,etc) make the extract more fermentable. He also talks about using Beano pre-boil, to break down the long sugars, and then when heated(boiled) the enzymes will stop so you don't go too dry.
Maybe everyone already knows this, but I thought it was intersting. This thread may belong in the extract section, but it is a technique after all. Mods, feel free to move if you desire.
Someone(not me) should do an experiment making half a batch with extract as is, and then the other half doing the mini-mash thing and see which ends up with a lower FG.
 

malkore

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I didn't listen to it yet, but the theory is interesting. I've only heard of bean-o post fermentation, when your real FG stops at like 50% on a normal ABV style beer. Of course the problem is overly dry beer because you lack the control of destroying the enzymes with heat.
 

david_42

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You can stop [alpha]-galactosidase (Beano) by heating the brew to 56C and holding it for 15 minutes. This should be done a few points above your TG, as there will be some fermentable sugars still in solution. It's not hot enough to mess up the beer, but you do have to be careful to re-cool without splashing.

Alpha-amylase concentrate is probably a better approach. It has a branching limit.
 

sirsloop

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That definitely sounds do-able. Bring a small volume of hot water up close to boil, add your extract, and add cold water until you hit 150. Throw a pound of 2 row in a grain sack and steep it at 145 like you would any other adjunct. Wash it out after, IDK, 30-60 minutes, and crank the heat. I suppose you could throw the wort in a cooler with this grain sack and sparge through a strainer right into the cooler. Dump the sparge into the boil pot.
 

Denny

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I just don't see how you can make the extract more fermentable. It's already been mased and boiled...the fermentability is fixed. Did he give any examples of actually trying this or is it just a theory? The Beano, maybe....
 

Guess42

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The idea would be to remash the extract, though I imagine the enzymes would be very dilute. Then again they don't have to do much work. Theoretically it could be possible. Couldn't you just add sugar to a bgs ale?
 

bobbrews

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Replace 10-15% extract with corn sugar in the recipe.
 

Denny

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The idea would be to remash the extract, though I imagine the enzymes would be very dilute. Then again they don't have to do much work. Theoretically it could be possible. Couldn't you just add sugar to a bgs ale?
I understand what the idea is, but consider this....the reason the extract doesn't ferment further is becasue there are unfermentables in it (duh!). So, what will you remash if the sugars aren't fermentable? The theory has been around a long time, at least 10-15 years. I haven't seen people rushing to do it, and those that have tried it haven't reported any positive results.
 

ResumeMan

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I understand what the idea is, but consider this....the reason the extract doesn't ferment further is becasue there are unfermentables in it (duh!). So, what will you remash if the sugars aren't fermentable? The theory has been around a long time, at least 10-15 years. I haven't seen people rushing to do it, and those that have tried it haven't reported any positive results.
I have no experience with this either (never heard of it till this thread...). But the idea is that there are unfermentable...sugars...in the extract. So what would happen is that the amylase enzymes in the grain that you mash the extract with would break down some of those bigger sugars into fermentable ones, just as they do in a regular mash.

Again, I don't know if it works, and I'm not particularly interested in trying it. But the point of mashing is to transform long-chain carbohydrates into smaller ones, so I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work in this case.
 

AnOldUR

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So what would happen is that the amylase enzymes in the grain that you mash the extract with would break down some of those bigger sugars into fermentable ones, just as they do in a regular mash.
This noob would guess that enzymes convert starches into sugar, not sugar into other types of sugars.
 

Denny

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This noob would guess that enzymes convert starches into sugar, not sugar into other types of sugars.
No, the sugars can be broken down further sometimes. That's the purpose of mashing for 90 min. as opposed to 60, for instance. But in extract you often have things like crystal malts and dark malts that are largely unfermentable. Those won't be affected by "mashing" the extract. I've known a few people who've tried this and haven't reported success. All I'd like to see is evidence that it works.
 

Lennie

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I base my extract recipes on extra-light DME just to avoid fermentability issues, it seems to ferment well enough.

I can see this working though, given the order of a typical step mash where you get a lot of simple sugars firt, then some larger stuff that adds body. Remashing at the lower temp with new malt is key since the beta-amylase in the original wort is destroyed by the higher temps favoring alpha-amylase.

And yes there will be some stuff that remains unfermentable but considering the real extract of a typical 75% apparent attenuation brew can have 35% unfermentables (Noonan's Lager book says 40% more than apparent), it might be that a good portion of those could be converted with the extra enzyme.

I've always thought the beta and alpha temp optima were backwards with respect to how I'd like them to be.
 
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