Making a Starter with Sugar Rather than DME

[ishkabibble]

Is there a reason sugar isn't endorsed, rather than DME, for making starters?

I've read that using sugar in a starter selectively-breeds yeast that metabolize sucrose, and that putting that sucrose-adapted yeast into the polysugared environment of a wort makes for a sluggish, low attenuation.

Is this science, or superstition? Especially if i'm decanting the liquid.

 

[brew_ny]

Is this science, or superstition?

science you are pitching your yeast into wort not simple sugar

it is better to have them to start in DME which when you mix it in water is wort

your wort is maltose not sucrose

or that is my understanding

all the best

S_M

 

[duboman]

Starters are not only about getting proper pitch rate but also yeast health. A simple sugar starter does not promote healthy yeast. Science.

 

[passedpawn]

I've made a lot of starters with table sugar. To be honest, it always worked very well. However, after reading Yeast (White / Zainescheff) I felt pretty bad about it and switched back to DME.

Split a batch of beer and do a controlled experiment and find out for yourself.

 

[brew_ny]

I felt pretty bad about it and switched back to DME.

every time a yeast dies it makes baby Jesus cry

 

[Bierliebhaber]

I've made a lot of starters with table sugar. To be honest, it always worked very well. However, after reading Yeast (White / Zainescheff) I felt pretty bad about it and switched back to DME.

Split a batch of beer and do a controlled experiment and find out for yourself.

Yeah, you don't want to get reported to DYS (Department of Yeast Services).

 

[ishkabibble]

I've made a lot of starters with table sugar. To be honest, it always worked very well. However, after reading Yeast (White / Zainescheff) I felt pretty bad about it and switched back to DME.

Split a batch of beer and do a controlled experiment and find out for yourself.

i like the spirit of this research, friend. good excuse for a double-batch. i knew a sugar starter would work, and has worked for someone. i just cannot believe that whole crabtree effect would take place overnight, rather yielded by successive sugared-up generations in a lab. the glucose-fructose vs maltose argument makes perfect sense, i just don't know that it matters at this level.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Yeast have a gene to produce maltase, which will break maltose into two glucose molecules. If no maltose is present, the yeast will turn off this gene. It can be turned back on as needed. Using simple sugar for your starter may increase your lag time, as the yeast will need to replenish their supply of maltase. But it shouldn't have any effect on the growth within your starter, or upon the health of the yeast, assuming you have enough nutrients (other than mere sugars) to grow yeast. I've used boiled flour. The major yeast labs seem to produce plenty of healthy yeast, and I'm reasonably certain they don't use DME to grow it.

 

[IL1kebeer]

If no maltose is present, the yeast will turn off this gene. It can be turned back on as needed.

I'm not a biologist, but multiple sources say otherwise. Once the gene is lost then future generations will be lacking.

The major yeast labs seem to produce plenty of healthy yeast, and I'm reasonably certain they don't use DME to grow it.

White Labs uses autoclaved DME per their website.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

The problem with using sugar instead of DME is that sugar is devoid of nitrogen, minerals, and vitamins.

 

[passedpawn]

The problem with using sugar instead of DME is that sugar is devoid of nitrogen, minerals, and vitamins.

I always sprinkled a bit of yeast nutrients in there (I think it was wyeast brand, but can't remember). I have no idea what nutrients are (I think zinc was one of them).

 

[IL1kebeer]

The problem with using sugar instead of DME is that sugar is devoid of nitrogen, minerals, and vitamins.

That's the smallest part of the problem. A 100% simple sugar starter will give you yeast unwilling to ferment maltose, which is far worse than having a starter devoid of nutrients. Even a wort with maltose and a high percentage of simple sugar will have the same effect. Isn't this pretty common knowledge? I haven't tried making a simple sugar starter or a high percentage simple sugar wort, but I am going off of pretty reputable sources. Feel free to try it and prove them (and me) wrong.

 

[ishkabibble]

maltase production from an inducible gene seems more logical than forever ruining successive generations by letting their parents spend a night in junk food. especially when wort is what--50% maltose, 20% glucose and sucrose--i would think adaptability of metabolism would be a trait for which strains are bred.

i mean, i would never start a long-term yeast ranch intended for continuous use with just sugar as food. that's bananas. i can see the crabtree there.

and since passedpawn's already done starters with sugars, that myth's busted in my book. i won't sweat that my shipment of dme's been delayed by the rest of the order (backordered michigan 2-row), and just use sugar in my starter.

 

[kingwood-kid]

I've done starters with sugar and a pinch of boiled flour. They started, and the beer came out fine. I make my starters from my previous batch's third runnings these days, and DME is certainly a better choice than sugar. But having a maltose-deficient food source won't remove the maltose gene. It will just remove the evolutionary advantage of having that gene.

 

[OakPond]

I don't see why you don't just pick up a few pounds of DME, it goes a long way if you're only using it for starters and you are going to use plenty making beer anyway, so it's always good to have on hand. It's not as if it's that expensive, I mean really, if you're into making brewing anyway.

 

[passedpawn]

I don't see why you don't just pick up a few pounds of DME, it goes a long way if you're only using it for starters and you are going to use plenty making beer anyway, so it's always good to have on hand. It's not as if it's that expensive, I mean really, if you're into making brewing anyway.

Yea, I agree, there's really not a good reason to NOT use DME. I will say, though, starters are the ONLY time I ever use DME, and I think that's probably the case with most all-grain brewers.

 

[dannysk]

Just to be a broken record, brewing with any simple sugar by itself is all wrong. Yeast are complex and will do what they need to do to survive. In the process or proper growth, many negative flavors and poor health can/will result. Don't do it...