Low Enzymatic/Cold Mash/Low alcohol beer

[beersk]

I'm a little curious about this statement. It's unclear to me (no pun intended) exactly what lautering method you used. I'm thinking you didn't use a traditional mash tun with extensive vourlaufing or recirculation, right?

I'm just saying that I think no matter how much you vorlauf/recirculate, you're still going to end up with all of those unconverted starches in the kettle that will eventually want to stick to the bottom or scorch. Or it'll stick to a heating element and probably definitely scorch.

 

[bierhaus15]

Not looking to start another yelling match, but the distillation method for NA beer production has long been replaced by both filtration and arrested fementation methods.The flavor is much better, especially for hoppier beers, and you don't suffer the myriad of issues from heating a beer for an extended period of time. It also requires no specialized equipment other than corney kegs.The hardest bit is diluting with deaerated water and that can be achieved via boiling and/or force carbonating and degassing water in a corney keg. For those who enjoy a challenge and don't want to invest $$, the afore arrested fermentation method is easy to do and produces a beer that is better than most commercially available NA products. Package stability is not an issue if the kegs/package are kept cold and drunk within a reasonable time frame. Now if I was to drink NA beer regularly, I'd just pay the $$ and buy those beers produced via micro/crossflow filtration.

 

[beersk]

Not looking to start another yelling match, but the distillation method for NA beer production has long been replaced by both filtration and arrested fementation methods.The flavor is much better, especially for hoppier beers, and you don't suffer the myriad of issues from heating a beer for an extended period of time. It also requires no specialized equipment other than corney kegs.The hardest bit is diluting with deaerated water and that can be achieved via boiling and/or force carbonating and degassing water in a corney keg. For those who enjoy a challenge and don't want to invest $$, the afore arrested fermentation method is easy to do and produces a beer that is better than most commercially available NA products. Package stability is not an issue if the kegs/package are kept cold and drunk within a reasonable time frame. Now if I was to drink NA beer regularly, I'd just pay the $$ and buy those beers produced via micro/crossflow filtration.

Is this how Clausthaler is made? Because that stuff tastes like wort. It's gross and does not taste like beer. I'm pretty sure Weihenstephaner (And probably Bitburger as well) is using a reverse osmosis type method to remove the alcohol because I bought a six pack of their hefeweizen alkoholfrei and it was fantastic. Tasted remarkably similar to the regular hefeweizen.

 

[bierhaus15]

Weihenstephaner uses RO and it is definitely one of the better NA's available. Some others use a combination of low alcohol producing yeasts, RO, vacuum distillation and/or AF. Typically the Scandinavian brewers use AF and Germans RO. Both can taste equally terrible and/or drinkable, really depends how much $$ one wants to spend on the equipment. Germany is the biggest market for NA beer and more resources are put towards that. AF is by no means the best method for making NA beers, it just happens to be the best for home brewers and smaller breweries.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... I'm not sure that traditional lautering really applies to this method as it is nearly impossible to get clear wort from the mash. I think this starch scorching or sticking to the bottom of the kettle is just something one has to deal with in this method.

FWIW, I've done 5-ish batches using "cold extraction". The flavors in the wort/beer were "more intense" than what I would have expected from the same malts in a more traditional process. But there was never what I would describe as a "burnt" flavor.

 

[beersk]

FWIW, I've done 5-ish batches using "cold extraction". The flavors in the wort/beer were "more intense" than what I would have expected from the same malts in a more traditional process. But there was never what I would describe as a "burnt" flavor.

That's good. Samples of mine don't have this burnt flavor either. Whether it's full flavored enough, I still don't know.

 

[kmarkstevens]

FWIW, I've done 5-ish batches using "cold extraction". The flavors in the wort/beer were "more intense" than what I would have expected from the same malts in a more traditional process. But there was never what I would describe as a "burnt" flavor.

Thanks. Given the flavors were "more intense", did you also test diluting with additional water?

And "more intense" in a good way or a hold your nose bad way?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks. Given the flavors were "more intense", did you also test diluting with additional water?

No.

And "more intense" in a good way or a hold your nose bad way?

Currently, with this process, I'm "observing", not "evaluating" - I am more interested in finding common ingredients that describe the flavors.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Thanks. Definitely need to watch the scorching. I'm dumping out the second try. I can only describe it as burnt rotten vegetable, and not in a good way.

v3 goes in the fridge tomorrow morning. Will be careful to stir both the mash and the boil....

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Will be careful to stir both the mash and the boil...

again, FWIW, constant stirring is not part of my equipment / process.

 

[beersk]

Thanks. Definitely need to watch the scorching. I'm dumping out the second try. I can only describe it as burnt rotten vegetable, and not in a good way.

v3 goes in the fridge tomorrow morning. Will be careful to stir both the mash and the boil....

I don't think being careful to stir in the mash is something you need to concern yourself with. Just making sure you stir and scrape up the stuff from the bottom of the kettle while it's heating is really all you need to do. Once it's to conversion temperatures, that sticky starch will turn into sugars and the wort will clear up.

 

[beersk]

Just took my first sample tonight of the Vienna Lager I did and, wow, is it ... Good! At 1.5% abv, I really am amazed. It's a very nice grainy/malty aroma, full body, great flavor, and awesome head retention/lacing. Definitely going to be doing more of this.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@beersk If you don't mind sharing, what was your recipe?

I'm steeping overnight 3# of 2-row and 1# wheat + ~2 gallons water for a total volume of 2.5 gallons. Will mash tomorrow and watch the scorching...

 

[beersk]

My recipe was, for a 3.5 gallon batch:

2.5lbs each, Munich, Vienna, Pilsner
1oz Carafa III
1/2oz Mt. Hood 30 min FWH
1/2oz Mt. Hood 5 min
Global L13 lager yeast fermented at 55F

I really like the beer a lot. Next time, though, I want to add some caramunich or medium crystal to add a tad more sweetness. It's pretty dry. But otherwise a real surprise how it turned out. I'm planning to do a pilsner tonight/tomorrow.


3.5 gallon batch

6lbs Pilsner
12oz Vienna
4oz Carahell
1/2oz Mt. Hood 30 min FWH
1oz Mt. Hood 10 min
Global L13 yeast

Wondering if I should bump up the carahell to 1/2lb on this. Soon after I do some more experimenting with this I plan to jump up to 5 gallon batches as this Vienna lager isn't going to last long. Great thing is I can start drinking bigger pours now. Whereas before I had started to drink 8-10oz pours. A 5 gallon batch lasts way too long at that rate and I hate having to be careful how much I drink. It's just no fun.

 

[ba-brewer]

My recipe was, for a 3.5 gallon batch:

2.5lbs each, Munich, Vienna, Pilsner
1oz Carafa III
1/2oz Mt. Hood 30 min FWH
1/2oz Mt. Hood 5 min
Global L13 lager yeast fermented at 55F

I really like the beer a lot. Next time, though, I want to add some caramunich or medium crystal to add a tad more sweetness. It's pretty dry. But otherwise a real surprise how it turned out. I'm planning to do a pilsner tonight/tomorrow.


3.5 gallon batch

6lbs Pilsner
12oz Vienna
4oz Carahell
1/2oz Mt. Hood 30 min FWH
1oz Mt. Hood 10 min
Global L13 yeast

Wondering if I should bump up the carahell to 1/2lb on this. Soon after I do some more experimenting with this I plan to jump up to 5 gallon batches as this Vienna lager isn't going to last long. Great thing is I can start drinking bigger pours now. Whereas before I had started to drink 8-10oz pours. A 5 gallon batch lasts way too long at that rate and I hate having to be careful how much I drink. It's just no fun.

With the lower sugar levels in the wort it seems like you would get a higher bitterness than a beer made with a standard mash process. I wonder if just cutting back on the hops a bit would give a similar result to adding crystal malts.

 

[ba-brewer]

Seen previous posts with scorching being a potential problem, maybe do a double boiler type thing to gently heat the collected running. Thinking like heat up water to mash temp in the HLT or MT then put a smaller pot into the hot water. It will take a bit more time to move the heat into the wort that would be better than burnt wort.

 

[beersk]

With the lower sugar levels in the wort it seems like you would get a higher bitterness than a beer made with a standard mash process. I wonder if just cutting back on the hops a bit would give a similar result to adding crystal malts.

I think it's something that needs balanced on both - less hops and a tad more crystal since the gravity of the wort is so much lower. This Vienna lager is good, but it needs that sweetness. I normally do use some caramunich in my normal 5% abv recipe but I didn't have any and this was just an experiment anyway. But now I'm doing the pilsner hoping the carahell helps this one out.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks @beersk. I entered your recipe into beersmith maybe I will add a little caramunich.

I believe I seen you posted that you did a full volume mash and found the absorption a little higher than normal. Do you remember about what the gal/pound of absorption was?

 

[kmarkstevens]

I managed not to scorch v3. I BIAB and don't have a lauter tun. So, stirred constantly (probably more than neededmuch) as it heated up to around 158F. Cut the heat to very low and covered with a lid. Iodine test said it fully converted.

3# 2 row
1# wheat
5 gram EKG for 30 minutes
total liquid volume around 2.5 gallons when soaking the grains
poured off the liquid, and post boil was not quite 2 gallons.
Will pitch WLP025 in the morning as I've built a starter for another brew
OG = 1010

Wort is very mildly sweet. No burnt taste on this try! Not vegetal either. Letting cool overnight and will pitch the yeast in the morning.

v4 is in the fridge. More of a bitter (and use up leftovers).
2# optic
1# 2 row
1# wheat
2.5 oz UK Crystal 60
4 oz UK crystal 120
5 oz US chocolate
for the boil 5g EKG

 

[beersk]

Thanks @beersk. I entered your recipe into beersmith maybe I will add a little caramunich.

I believe I seen you posted that you did a full volume mash and found the absorption a little higher than normal. Do you remember about what the gal/pound of absorption was?

Hmm well it was 20 qt water for that 7.5lb or whatever it was grainbill and I got about 3.6 gallons in the kettle (I usually shoot for 4 gallons in the kettle for these 2.5 gallon batches). I would just use about a quart or maybe even 2 more quarts than you normally do. Then again, you're only boiling for 30 minutes, so you get less boil off which is fine for the lower volume.

 

[Gilbert Spinning Horse]

I'm planning a low ABV beer this weekend using this method and have been reading around a lot. What I'm unsure about is whether to go from cold straight to boil or to mash for an hour or so at normal temps prior to boiling. Any thought from your experiences?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What I'm unsure about is whether to go from cold straight to boil or to mash for an hour or so at normal temps prior to boiling.

For the batches that I brewed with cold extraction, i did a "rest" for 30 or 45 minutes at around 150. For me, this resulted in a beer that's in the 3-4% range.

Some brewers will skip the "rest" and go directly to the boil (see the /r/homebrewing links in reply #10 of this topic). Brewers who did this generally reported making a 1.5%-ish beer.

 

[beersk]

For the batches that I brewed with cold extraction, i did a "rest" for 30 or 45 minutes at around 150. For me, this resulted in a beer that's in the 3-4% range.

Some brewers will skip the "rest" and go directly to the boil (see the /r/homebrewing links in reply #10 of this topic). Brewers who did this generally reported making a 1.5%-ish beer.

3-4% range? How'd you manage that? You should be only getting about 25% efficiency with this method. I mash cold over night 40-50F range, then vorlauf and run off and bring the wort up to the 150s for 30 minutes, then up to a boil for 30 minutes. I've gotten about 1.020ish OG for my normal 1.050 gravity recipes.

I've only made 2 so far, but after my first one I realized that without the alcohol you need to add something back into provide a little balancing sweetness, like crystal malt or something.

 

[stickyfinger]

i was wondering the same thing. i had thought you could expect sub 2% beers with cold mashing. i can easily get 3-4% beers doing a hot mash (165F+ single infusion.)

In fact, I have been wanting to ask about doing a hot mash vs a cold extraction. I read a Lallemand product sheet (can't find right now) that talked about low alcohol brewing. They recommended mashing with single infusion between I think 182-186F to get good extraction, very little starch and very little attenuation. I thought I might try that vs a cold mash. The cold mash just seems like it's going to lead to a very thin beer vs the hot mash.

3-4% range? How'd you manage that? You should be only getting about 25% efficiency with this method. I mash cold over night 40-50F range, then vorlauf and run off and bring the wort up to the 150s for 30 minutes, then up to a boil for 30 minutes. I've gotten about 1.020ish OG for my normal 1.050 gravity recipes.

I've only made 2 so far, but after my first one I realized that without the alcohol you need to add something back into provide a little balancing sweetness, like crystal malt or something.

 

[stickyfinger]

here's what i was reading last night, very interesting! has anyone ever mashed this hot? I did as high as 167F but never went above that.

https://www.brewersjournal.info/grasp-the-low-and-no-alcohol-opportunity/

 

[lowtones84]

The point also stands that the beer is plenty stable enough to keg. His method is valid for the purpose at hand. However I think a high flocculation low attenuation ale strain like WLP002 is way better suited for that method. I would almost guarantee that once you crash and rack that it wouldn't start again.

This is exactly what I was thinking. WLP002 will drop out like a rock and refuse to do anything at even a couple of degrees below its ideal fermentation temp it seems. At least that's been my experience with the yeast. If you cold crashed I would be very surprised if it kept doing anything, even over months. Have never tried, honestly, but that's my experience with that strain's "personality."

 

[kmarkstevens]

I have to bottle my latest cold soak try. With cold soak overnight in the fridge, then mashed (being really careful not to scorch the brew kettle) around 158 for 45 minutes, then boiled for 20 minutes with 5 grams of EKG hops, ended up with a 1010 OG. Used Adnan's (cause I had a starter handy) and a 1002 FG. Taste of the sample wasn't horrible but definitely too light on the hops, so I have dry hopped it. I need to bottle this weekend.

@Gilbert Spinning Horse You need to mash to covert the starches to sugar.

@RPh_Guy 02 (Fullers strain) is the best yeast I have found for low alcohol beers. It is probably the lowest attenuating yeast out there, clean tasting, and drops like a rock. FWIW, I prefer Imperial Pub to 02. Supposedly both are Fullers strain, but the Imperial stats show it ferments a bit more than the 02. I do like WLP085, which is 02 and supposedly 06 or 07 mix. It attenuates more, has more character and also drops out clean

I've done a couple of split batch taste tests and have always preferred Pub. I also tried WLP011 European ale last year during the vault release, and don't like it as much as 02.

If you want, you can do a cold mash, and then a second batch with the spent grains as long as you add a pound or two of 6-row. The cold mash denatures all of the enzymes. I made a drinkable "table" beer this way.

To me, the holy grail of cold mash would be to hit the 1010 OG, pitch 02 in the keg with a spunding valve and a floating dip tube. At least, I'm gonna try this as soon as I kick my 2.5 gallon keg.

 

[kmarkstevens]

here's what i was reading last night, very interesting! has anyone ever mashed this hot? I did as high as 167F but never went above that.

https://www.brewersjournal.info/grasp-the-low-and-no-alcohol-opportunity/

Never tried that hot but this sure looks interesting. Windsor isn't my favorite yeast by a long shot, but I have some in stock for a test batch. Have never tried the London Ale (which the interwebs usually claim is the Fuller's strain, but I think suregork shows it is something else).

 

[Miraculix]

This is such a great thread, thanks for sharing your experiences everyone!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

3-4% range? How'd you manage that? You should be only getting about 25% efficiency with this method.

i was wondering the same thing. i had thought you could expect sub 2% beers with cold mashing. i can easily get 3-4% beers doing a hot mash (165F+ single infusion.)

My process was BIAB with a double-crush, using just distilled water (no minerals) during the extraction. OG/FG measurements where done with a hydrometer. With cold extraction, I am still exploring, so I haven't brewed the recipe twice. I may give http://hornbrewing.com/blog/2019/03/07/cold-extraction-brown-ale-1-5-abv/ a try over the weekend to compare it to a brown that I brewed earlier.

... a second batch with the spent grains as long as you add a pound or two of 6-row ...

I've brewed twice with spent grains (warning: long brew day) once was a 50/50 mix of spent grains and "two row", once with added enzymes. From an OG/FG perspective, both approaches work. My next step may be to find some recipes that justify the longer brew day with the spent grains.

here's what i was reading last night, very interesting! has anyone ever mashed this hot? I did as high as 167F but never went above that.

https://www.brewersjournal.info/grasp-the-low-and-no-alcohol-opportunity/

I gave the article a quick skim and read "The high temperature mashing technique" section. For making low ABV beers, this appears to be less time/effort than cold extraction, as well as fitting well with almost everyone's current equipment.