Lots of electric lurking. Why so much BIAB?

[4of7]

Seems like a lot of guys here are building or using controllers just to BIAB?

To me the logical progression would be to get out of the bag.. then think about going electric and getting into controllers.

Am I missing something?

2v ebiab, 15 gallon kettle, 10 gallon batches, 50l kegmenter, 3.5-4 hr brew day, the bag cuts down on the cleaning time.. LoL.."Stay strong and Brew on"

 

[NewJersey]

i dont for the life of me see why someone would EVER go 3 vessel rims/herms over biab.
it's like a cartoon where the character is banging on a door, ramming it, bombing it, etc and then the other character walks up, turns the knob with his hand and opens the door.
3 vessel rims/herms is just a waste of money, time, and space. BIAB, for a homebrewer, seems like an inferior option while in reality it is actually superior.

 

[LittleRiver]

...To me the logical progression would be to get out of the bag.. then think about going electric and getting into controllers....

You, and many brewers, have the perception that traditional systems are somehow inherently "better" than a simple single vessel BIAB rig. I don't mean this as a personal attack, but the flaw here is in your perception.

Why do you have that perception? Is it a matter of pride of ownership of hardware? Is it a pride of operation, where you feel your experience operating that hardware is more "real" or "better" than someone who doesn't have that hardware?

Hardware is not what defines a person as a brewer, or in any other way.

...If we produce the exact same beer one you brewed in your BIAB or 3v or 2v method and one that I (in the future) brewed by adding a touch of ethanol and spoonfull of beer powder and then shooting it with C02. Arent you the better brewer? Yes you are.. i didnt do anything but mix ingredients. The point there being the process does matter. You brewed and I didnt. I think my thought here is that at somepoint the process is so dumbed down... it doesn't feel like brewing TO ME (I am NOT saying it isn't brewing!)...

BIAB is not a "dumbed down" process. You just have a flawed perception of it.

There's nothing dumb about removing unnecessary complexity and arriving at elegant simplicity.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

At the risk of stirring this pot even more, I'll throw out another argument: Multi-vessel systems allow you to adjust the mash thickness; single vessel doesn't.

According to John Palmer:

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

So here's a scientific reason to use more than one vessel if you want to have the ability to adjust another brewing variable. Can you brew great beer using BIAB? Sure! However, if you want to be able to brew a wide range of beer styles (low alcohol session beers to high alcohol barleywines or similar), then you might want to go multi-vessel so you have more control over the process.

Then again, you may not. That's what's cool about our hobby - many ways to get the job done and it's up to you what suits you best.

 

[tmendick]

You can do BIAB without it being full volume. I've done quite a few batches where I "sparge" about 2 gallons of room temp water after the mash is done. I don't feel that it made my beers better/worse so I usually forego this practice

 

[pocketmon]

At the risk of stirring this pot even more, I'll throw out another argument: Multi-vessel systems allow you to adjust the mash thickness; single vessel doesn't.

According to John Palmer:

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

So here's a scientific reason to use more than one vessel if you want to have the ability to adjust another brewing variable. Can you brew great beer using BIAB? Sure! However, if you want to be able to brew a wide range of beer styles (low alcohol session beers to high alcohol barleywines or similar), then you might want to go multi-vessel so you have more control over the process.

Then again, you may not. That's what's cool about our hobby - many ways to get the job done and it's up to you what suits you best.

It seems that Kaiser's experiment came out different conclusion.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ciency_in_single_infusion_mashing&redirect=no

"
The results for mash thickness were somewhat surprising. Contrary to common believe no attenuation difference was seen between a thick mash (2.57 l/kg or 1.21 qt/lb) and a thin mash (5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb). Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these experiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in the temperature experiment.
"

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

You can do BIAB without it being full volume. I've done quite a few batches where I "sparge" about 2 gallons of room temp water after the mash is done. I don't feel that it made my beers better/worse so I usually forego this practice

Interesting! As long as you are using room temp water, then you can do it with single vessel - I hadn't thought of doing that. I always sparge with 170F water, since that helps get to boiling faster once I'm done sparging, and that's why a 2nd vessel is needed to heat that water.

 

[tmendick]

Interesting! As long as you are using room temp water, then you can do it with single vessel - I hadn't thought of doing that. I always sparge with 170F water, since that helps get to boiling faster once I'm done sparging, and that's why a 2nd vessel is needed to heat that water.

You could also heat all your water and reserve some in a bucket, but that would be closer to counting as a "2nd vessel". I have done that a few times to save some ramp time after the mash.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

It seems that Kaiser's experiment came out different conclusion.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ciency_in_single_infusion_mashing&redirect=no

"
The results for mash thickness were somewhat surprising. Contrary to common believe no attenuation difference was seen between a thick mash (2.57 l/kg or 1.21 qt/lb) and a thin mash (5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb). Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these experiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in the temperature experiment.
"

Very good info in this article - thanks for posting the link!

I can say from personal experience that I've seen a difference when adjusting mash thickness. I always went with 1.25 qts/lb and kept ending up with higher finishing gravity that I liked. When I went to 1.33 qts/lb, my average FG dropped into the expected range pretty consistently.

It does seem to depend on the type of malt you use, according to the article. I know most malts these days are highly modified, and a lot of the brewing science/conventional wisdom was developed prior to improvements in malting.

Back to my main point on all this: The design of YOUR system will depend on what YOU want it to do. For me, I like being able to adjust the mash thickness; it may be a minor effect, but I want the ability to do it.

I seriously considered a single vessel e-BIAB, but chose a 2 vessel system that allows me that freedom. Overkill? Maybe, but not for me, which is all that's important to my design. Others have different wants and needs, and thus have different systems. Not right or wrong, better or worse, just different methods. It's all good!

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

You could also heat all your water and reserve some in a bucket, but that would be closer to counting as a "2nd vessel". I have done that a few times to save some ramp time after the mash.

That's basically what my system is, although I don't use a bucket. I have an electric kettle and a cooler for a mash tun. Heat all the water in the kettle, transfer some over to the mash tun for the mash, then transfer the rest on top of the mash when it's time to sparge. Slowly pump the mash tun over to the kettle, which mimics a fly sparge, since the sparge water is all on top of the mash.

 

[kh54s10]

Interesting reading on a 3 year old thread. But it all comes down to what equipment you prefer to brew on.

The original premise was that a controller comes last in the progression.

I heartily disagree with that. Once you decide to go electric. A controller is a must. How complex the controller is, is a different story. One brewer using BIAB may only need to adjust the power going to the element. Someone recirculating on any style rig will need more complexity.

 

[Austin_]

I moved to eBIAB from a traditional 3-vessel propane setup I'd been using for a decade. My reason was simplicity. Life is busy, space is tight, and money is not infinite. eBIAB allows me to brew more beer in a smaller footprint in less time for less than the cost of a 3V electric setup. I'm not knocking the 3V setups - they're pretty sexy. eBIAB works for me.

 

[Beer-lord]

i dont for the life of me see why someone would EVER go 3 vessel rims/herms over biab.
it's like a cartoon where the character is banging on a door, ramming it, bombing it, etc and then the other character walks up, turns the knob with his hand and opens the door.
3 vessel rims/herms is just a waste of money, time, and space. BIAB, for a homebrewer, seems like an inferior option while in reality it is actually superior.

As a BIABer, I can agree but I think it's great that we can brew good beer a number of ways. I don't miss the old days and can't say my beer taste any different at all since I moved to BIAB brewing 7 years ago. For me, the advantages of BIAB are many and going electric made things even easier for me.
To each their own. Brew on my brewing brothers and sisters!

 

[NewJersey]

I've not yet brewed BIAB and my current setup is 3V natural gas. I can see how electric is superior on a variety of fronts. shoulda gone electric straight away, but what put me off when i first started, honestly, was the complexity/hassle of electric 3V.
People tend to dislike new ideas. The surging popularity of eBIAB is newer. (the "e" part not just the bag)
For example, when i first saw the steamslayer i mocked and advocated just doing a hood. Upon further thought and reading I've come around and may use it in my ebiab setup. (how to use a hop spider tho??)
3V is absolutely just unnecessary complexity and I have not seen a compelling argument to show me otherwise.

 

[TwistedGray]

Well, since you guys revived this dead thread ... best bang for the buck turn key electric biab setup?

 

[Beer-lord]

I really like my High Gravity Brewing 10 gallon system. It's efficient, and other than the money I had to pony up to have a 30 amp outlet run 80 feet from my service, I think it was very reasonable.
And, there are a number of similar, good systems out there. Clawhammer, UniBrau, Brew Boss and more.
There's also less expensive and small systems such as the Grainfather and Robo Brew etc.

 

[NewJersey]

I like the look of the Unibrau and am really excited with what SS Brewtech is putting together.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

How many competitions has he won, and how many have you won? My friends like my beer, sure, but the proof of an actual "good" beer or cider is by impartial experienced judges.

I'm not sure comps are a good way to judge beer quality. Given that they're tied to a finite set of styles, they are somewhat limiting. If someone brewed a killer imperial dry hopped california common, how well will that go over in a competition, regardless of how tasty it is? It doesn't fit in a slot, so it's unlikely to score well because it's not to style. I've scored in the 40's with beers I thought were just OK and scored a 27 on a beer I expected to easily be in the 40's and a serious BOS contender (with some real head-scratcher comments in both cases).

This is really the issue with brewing. It's really hard to know if your beer is all that or not.
I know what you mean by ugly baby syndrome, but usually I experience the exact opposite. I find flaws in my beer and I'm never satisfied, but by hard-core beer connoisseur friends love what I brew. I've also gotten really favorable comments from pro brewers and an offer to do a collab, but I still think, when drinking my beer side by side with top notch beers, than mine falls short.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Your logic makes sense to me. BIAB as end all does not.

To each his own though.

I think what you're missing is that every brewer has their own needs, interests, and priorities. You're making massive assumptions on the progression of the typical home brewer that then lead to your confusion. Many eBIAB brewers come from 3 vessel systems and want to simplify the process, reduce footprint (on brewday and storage) and want to expedite the brewday for various reasons.

eBIAB is probably the fastest brewday you can have. People are completing the entire process, from heating the strike water to cleaned and put away in 3-3.5 hours. For many, that's huge and enables them to brew when they otherwise can't.

It's also less expensive and allows you to brew indoors (huge for those of us in cold winter climates).

The big thing to understand is that people arrive at different "final" solution via different paths, different resources, different priorities and different environments.

I've been planning an electric rig for about a year now and I've gone back and forth between eBIAB, counterflow HERMS, 2V kettle HERMS and a full-up 3V HERMS configuration a number of times because each has advantages and disadvantages. I brew everything from pilsners and blonde ales to big 12+% russian imperials. Couple that with a desire for small footprint and an affordable rig and the decision gets murky quite quickly.

 

[LittleRiver]

Well, since you guys revived this dead thread ... best bang for the buck turn key electric biab setup?

What do you want to do with it?

If you do a lot of step mashing, then a programmable controller and a recirculation pump will make your brew day easier, and could be worth the added complexity, cleanup, and hassles (stuck sparges, controller/pump issues, etc).

If you don't do a lot of step mashing, you don't need programming or recirculation. Their added complexity, hassles, cleanup, & expense is not worth whatever benefit they might bring to the table IMO.

 

[TwistedGray]

What do you want to do with it?

If you do a lot of step mashing, then a programmable controller and a recirculation pump will make your brew day easier, and could be worth the added complexity, cleanup, and hassles (stuck sparges, controller/pump issues, etc).

If you don't do a lot of step mashing, you don't need programming or recirculation. Their added complexity, hassles, cleanup, & expense is not worth whatever benefit they might bring to the table IMO.

Very simplistic...I want a eBIAB rig that can hold mash temp, boil, and if at all practical ferment in (ie: to also control temps).

 

[LittleRiver]

Very simplistic...I want a eBIAB rig that can hold mash temp, boil, and if at all practical ferment in (ie: to also control temps).

Go to the BIAB forum on this site and explain what you want to do, and ask for advice. Give as much info as you can about what is and is not important to you.

 

[TwistedGray]

Go to the BIAB forum on this site and explain what you want to do, and ask for advice. Give as much info as you can about what is and is not important to you.

Yeah, that's what I will eventually do as soon as I get the funds...I'm sure it won't be cheap.

 

[LittleRiver]

...I'm sure it won't be cheap.

It does not have to be prohibitively expensive.

You can brew on your kitchen stovetop, which will work fine for small batches.

If your stove is inadequate for 5gal batches (most are), you can add a bucket heater to make up for that. You won't have to modify your kettle, and you won't need a controller. When the bucket heater has done its part, just unplug it. You'll only need it to ramp up to your mash temp, and later to ramp up to a boil. Your stove will be able to maintain a boil.

To maintain mash temps, put the lid on and put insulation over your kettle. You'll be able to maintain temp within one degree. Some people make reflectix covers, others use blankets or an old sleeping bag. There's no need for RIMS heaters, pumps, controllers, etc.

Plenty of people, including myself, routinely hit and exceed recipe targets without sparging at all. You don't need the recirculation pump and other related hardware (and hassles) that seem to come with all of the turnkey systems.

If you want to get off your stovetop, you could install heating element(s) in your kettle. You could put in a single 5500W 240V element, and assemble a StillDragon controller kit to adjust the heat output. If you don't have the appropriate power outlet already in place, having it installed will be your biggest expense.

Or you could install two smaller 120V heat elements, and plug each into separate 120V circuits that already exist in your home. Plug in both to ramp up to temp, use only one to maintain a boil. A controller is not required. If you want to add one later, you can. If you don't feel comfortable modifying your kettle, use two HotRods that mount to the rim.

There are several ways to get where you want to go, and there is no need to spend lots of money to get there.

 

[TwistedGray]

It does not have to be prohibitively expensive.

You can brew on your kitchen stovetop, which will work fine for small batches.

If your stove is inadequate for 5gal batches (most are), you can add a bucket heater to make up for that. You won't have to modify your kettle, and you won't need a controller. When the bucket heater has done its part, just unplug it. You'll only need it to ramp up to your mash temp, and later to ramp up to a boil. Your stove will be able to maintain a boil.

To maintain mash temps, put the lid on and put insulation over your kettle. You'll be able to maintain temp within one degree. Some people make reflectix covers, others use blankets or an old sleeping bag. There's no need for RIMS heaters, pumps, controllers, etc.

Plenty of people, including myself, routinely hit and exceed recipe targets without sparging at all. You don't need the recirculation pump and other related hardware (and hassles) that seem to come with all of the turnkey systems.

If you want to get off your stovetop, you could install heating element(s) in your kettle. You could put in a single 5500W 240V element, and assemble a StillDragon controller kit to adjust the heat output. If you don't have the appropriate power outlet already in place, having it installed will be your biggest expense.

Or you could install two smaller 120V heat elements, and plug each into separate 120V circuits that already exist in your home. Plug in both to ramp up to temp, use only one to maintain a boil. A controller is not required. If you want to add one later, you can. If you don't feel comfortable modifying your kettle, use two HotRods that mount to the rim.

There are several ways to get where you want to go, and there is no need to spend lots of money to get there.

True; we have a good enough stovetop that can boil 5 gallons. I also have a hot water tap at the water heater that I use to bypass the water softener that gets me near mash temp out of the tap.

I'd like to avoid the "manual" temp controlling of mashing in and automate it. I use many of the same methods you noted.

I would also like to control fermentation temps which I'm not doing now with some exceptions (I occasionally use a sous vide carboy bath).

Maybe I'll sketch this on paper...might make more sense

 

[LittleRiver]

...I'd like to avoid the "manual" temp controlling of mashing in and automate it...

I do use one type of automation, a thermometer that has hi/low temp alarms, a built-in timer, and a remote probe. It's all the automation I need.

I set the high alarm to a couple of degrees below my strike temp and go do something else (grind grain for example) while the mash water is heating.

For the mash I set the low alarm a few degrees below my mash temp so it'll beep me if there is a problem (there never is), set the timer and go do something else. The remote probe is nice, because there's no need to remove kettle insulation (i.e. lose heat) to monitor the temp.

...I would also like to control fermentation temps which I'm not doing now with some exceptions...

I snagged a large(ish) wine fridge off Craigslist for $75. I added a reptile heat pad ($20, Amazon), and put together a temp controller based on an ITC-1000F ($17, plus ~$8 for outlets, wire, etc.). The whole system is very compact and does everything I need it to do. If you're not comfortable wiring up your own controller, use an ITC-308 ($39).

 

[TwistedGray]

I do use one type of automation, a thermometer that has hi/low temp alarms, a built-in timer, and a remote probe. It's all the automation I need.

I set the high alarm to a couple of degrees below my strike temp and go do something else (grind grain for example) while the mash water is heating.

For the mash I set the low alarm a few degrees below my mash temp so it'll beep me if there is a problem (there never is), set the timer and go do something else. The remote probe is nice, because there's no need to remove kettle insulation (i.e. lose heat) to monitor the temp.

In similar fashion I use an Inkbird thermometer that connect to my phone via Bluetooth, so I can monitor the temp while doing something else. I still would prefer to set the temp, walk away, and have nothing to worry about. Generally speaking, I don't have anything to worry about but because of my small batch size, I find temperature dips are common thus I have to monitor.

I snagged a large(ish) wine fridge off Craigslist for $75. I added a reptile heat pad ($20, Amazon), and put together a temp controller based on an ITC-1000F ($17, plus ~$8 for outlets, wire, etc.). The whole system is very compact and does everything I need it to do. If you're not comfortable wiring up your own controller, use an ITC-308 ($39).

Very interesting, care to share a pic for visual reference and inspiration?

 

[LittleRiver]

...care to share a pic for visual reference and inspiration?

Sure, here's a few.

The glass door and clear fermenter let me check progress without opening the chamber. I mounted a window shade on the stand underneath the fridge, it pulls up to block light when I'm not snooping on the yeast. At the top the shade is fastened by a wire hook that fits into a little hole I drilled in the top of the fridge.

I completely bypassed the fridge's built-in controller by disconnecting the power wires going to the compressor, and attaching a new power cord directly to the compressor. That cord plugs into the "cool" outlet of my controller. The reptile heat pad plugs into the "heat" outlet.

I put a third outlet on the back of the controller for plugging in the original power cord of the fridge. I did that so the fridge's built-in light and light switch will operate. That outlet is not connected in any way to the ITC-1000F temp controller.

I put a master power switch on the front of the controller that kills the incoming power, turning everything off when the chamber is not in use. The sign was a gift from my sweet daughter.

 

[TwistedGray]

Very well done @LittleRiver and nice workmanship!

 

[golfindia]

Are you controlling the temp with a probe in the liquid?

 

[LittleRiver]

Are you controlling the temp with a probe in the liquid?

The probe is in a 12" thermowell which is inserted through a stopper in the lid of the fermenter. That puts the tip of the probe in the center of the beer, about 6" below the surface.