lost aroma and flavor after a week in keg

[Panderson1]

I thought I was turning the corner in my quest to eliminate oxygen exposure. I used a blow tie valve on my firmzilla and pressure transfer to keg. I also used a cold crash guardian on my other conical. Both beers smelled fantastic last weekend. Now both are dead aroma and flavor seems to have gone bland. I'm getting really frustrated. I purge the crap out of the kegs before/after filling. Smdh Rant

 

[day_trippr]

If there's an issue here, it may be near the end: it reads like you may be using CO2 to try to "purge the crap out of the kegs". That's unlikely to work well due to the prodigious amount of gas required. Instead, try doing a "Star San" purge by completely filling the kegs with Star San mix then pushing it all out with CO2...

Cheers!

 

[Dland]

A alternative to the star san purge, one can also use CO2 from primary fermentation to purge the kegs. It is easier, free and works just as well.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/keg-purging-with-active-fermentation.628658/#post-8004741
If you suspect oxidation is happening somewhere else in process, you could try a different approach. I closed transfer from primary fermentor (gravity with CO2 displacement) into kegs, then crash in kegs. This allows little or no oxidation, and the extra amount of sediment from crashing in kegs is negligible.

 

[Panderson1]

Thanks.

You would think kegging and being so anal about oxygen would get good results.

How could anyone bottle (via bucket) an IPA and get good results. Yet I hear about it a lot. I'm going crazy lol. Bad brew week

 

[Jim R]

Agree that there is almost no reason not to purge a Star San filled keg during early fermentation if you have a Fermzilla and a Spunding Valve. I even then run the Star San out of the purging keg through my serving hose which sanitizes that at the same time.

 

[Nubiwan]

Did your beer lose colour? That would be a sign of oxidation I expect. Go grey or purple? Darker?

Ascorbic Acid kept my IPA tangy in bottles for about 3 months. That is, they were all sucked back in 3 months with no noticeable degradation in aroma or taste or colour. I added the AA at dry hop time. Teaspoon for 5 gallons worked.

Got a post on it somewhere. Search IPA Oxidation bottles. Should work to find the thread. I also posted some pictures to the "bitter end". Something to try, on top of purging. YMMV

 

[day_trippr]

ime, aroma goes first, then flavor, then the color change becomes obvious...

Cheers!

 

[slurms]

Agree that there is almost no reason not to purge a Star San filled keg during early fermentation if you have a Fermzilla and a Spunding Valve. I even then run the Star San out of the purging keg through my serving hose which sanitizes that at the same time.

I've purged kegs using StarSan but pushed it out with my CO2 tank. Are you suggesting that the pressure from fermentation CO2 creation is enough to push the StarSan out of the keg? If not, does anyone know if that would work?

 

[Jim R]

Yes it works and it works great. I connect my Spunding valve to my fermenter (Fermzilla All Rounder for me) and connect another hose from the outlet of the Spunding valve to the gas inlet side of the Star San filled keg that I want to purge. I then attach my usual serving hose from the beer outlet side of the purging keg to a bucket (with the picnic tap valve held open with a rubber band) to sanitize that at the same time. It only takes 1-2 psi of pressure to completely purge the keg and there is 12-15 psi in the fermenter if that is what I have my Spuding valve set at. It usually takes an hour or two to purge the keg depending on how active the fermentation is but it sure doesn't take long before the bucket is filled with Star San. I am sure I could purge quite a few kegs this way, in fact, some people just hook them up in series to do them all on auto-pilot.

 

[jdauria]

One thing I would recommend is to not fill a keg with StarSan and then purge it via CO2...too much foam can be left behind. Use Saniclean, it's from the same company as StarSan, but is low foam. I know we all learned "Don't Fear the Foam" but it's just harder to completely purge the keg with StarSan.

 

[skidmark]

I thought I was turning the corner in my quest to eliminate oxygen exposure. I used a blow tie valve on my firmzilla and pressure transfer to keg. I also used a cold crash guardian on my other conical. Both beers smelled fantastic last weekend. Now both are dead aroma and flavor seems to have gone bland. I'm getting really frustrated. I purge the crap out of the kegs before/after filling. Smdh Rant

Just out of curiosity, have you had a COVID test? My son reported that he couldn't even taste Flamin' Hot Doritos. Loss of taste and smell are well-known symptoms of the 'rona.

 

[Panderson1]

One thing I would recommend is to not fill a keg with StarSan and then purge it via CO2...too much foam can be left behind. Use Saniclean, it's from the same company as StarSan, but is low foam. I know we all learned "Don't Fear the Foam" but it's just harder to completely purge the keg with StarSan.

I was thinking this as well. I feel like you'd leave a lot of liquid in the keg.

 

[day_trippr]

[shrug] I've been doing Star San purges for quite awhile and have never found an issue with foam.
If you fill the keg totally full there's literally no air space to allow foam to even form, and a properly located original-length dip tube will get all but a portion of a teaspoon of fluid out when pushed...

Cheers!

 

[Jim R]

I agree that foaming with purging is a non-issue for me. The price you pay for reducing oxygen exposure is to leave a teaspoon of Star San in the keg after purging it. That is a small price to pay that is well worth it or me. Of course, it doesn't matter whether you purged it with fermentation CO2 or CO2 for a gas tank.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

@Panderson1 .. i feel you on the frustration of oxidation. I have been doing closed transfers for quite some time now and 2 batches ago i had one oxidize on me. i was befuddled, i went over my process and not sure even now what i missed. i was extra careful on the last one and so far so good. but i guess what im getting at is even though it can be discouraging at times when you nail it and the beer stays excellent from day 1 to day 100 it is rewarding. so brew on!

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

(with the picnic tap valve held open with a rubber band)

, but related...

Hah, you can flip the picnic tap handle over the other way, completely. It will lock and stay put in that position, all the way open.

 

[JimC]

Sneaky spots o2 can get into your closed system where tinny volumes of air are enough to kill hop-forward beers:

- Liquid purged keg has 30-90ml dead space that is difficult to clear. Use fermentation of gassing to purge or even better, do both.
- Transfer lines have volume. Fill with sanitizer/dump first bit/fill with co2 prior to use on all transfers.
- Tinny leaky connections can draw air in. This one is sneaky and usually not obvious. Ball lock-keg post interface is the most likely vector. Lube that o-ring.
- Lower quality co2. Beverage grade co2 can have up to 10ppm impurities. Depending on your local co2 feed source a good chunk of that could be oxygen. Buy higher grade co2 if force carbonating or spund.

 

[Panderson1]

Damn. The Co2 quality I've always wondered about. I've tried 2 shops that fill and both are "paint ball" type shops.

All these little details to worry about. Not sure how you guys do it.

 

[marc1]

Damn. The Co2 quality I've always wondered about. I've tried 2 shops that fill and both are "paint ball" type shops.

All these little details to worry about. Not sure how you guys do it.

It could be a relatively easy fix to your purging process. Can you describe it?

 

[JimC]

If your using co2 from a paintball place would probably in Industrial grade. Don't drink that ****. If can have benzine and all kinds of nasty crap in there that even in tiny amounts are bad.

 

[Nate R]

To the OP as well... what are your beverage lines made of?
Basic vinyl? Eva? Etc. Etc.
I have read there can be oxygen ingress due to type of beverage line.

 

[Panderson1]

If your using co2 from a paintball place would probably in Industrial grade. Don't drink that ****. If can have benzine and all kinds of nasty crap in there that even in tiny amounts are bad.

Damn. Why haven't i seen more discussions on this topic?

 

[Panderson1]

To the OP as well... what are your beverage lines made of?
Basic vinyl? Eva? Etc. Etc.
I have read there can be oxygen ingress due to type of beverage line.

I use lines from morebeer. I'm pretty sure they are vinyl. 3/16 beer line

 

[Panderson1]

I did my 1st starsan purge last night. and closed transfer. Went well I think. But now i'm concerned about bad CO2 ^ from above statement lol

 

[Nate R]

Damn. Why haven't i seen more discussions on this topic?

Not sure if you were serious or joking on this one...
There are AT LEAST a dozen threads i know of on C02: Purity, Tanks, etc. It is a rather hot topic at times I think.
You will find a range from "it's all the same gas, no difference" to "the gas is all thew same it's the tanks that are different" to "the type of gas DOES matter"
Watch here- i promise you that a few different opinions will come out here shortly! ha ha.
I have decided to swap my tanks at an Airgas and I ask for "Beverage Grade" as it close to my house, about the same price, and easy enough.
I would personally stay away from paintball and welding shops, but that is just me.
YMMV

 

[Nate R]

I use lines from morebeer. I'm pretty sure they are vinyl. 3/16 beer line

You might want to make this a "future" upgrade option... look for Silver barrier, or EVA, etc.. lots of threads here.
The better the line the easier to clean & keep clean I think. It does get pricey, though.. and some types get real rigid in the cold fridge.

 

[day_trippr]

Skip the "Silver Barrier" or any other line made by EJ Beverage. It's a crock, the specs on their tubing compound is barely better than solid PVC.

As for CO2, it's true, there are opinions/factoids/whatevers offered on the topic of CO2 purity and conveyance that are all over the map. I can only offer that according to my nearest AirGas fill station, what they put in my siphon tank is "Food Grade"...

Cheers!