Looking for high flocculation, low attenuation dry yeast

[Miraculix]

Dearest collected wisdom of homebrewtalk,

I am looking for a dry yeast for a braggot that would leave a lot of residual sweetness in beer and preferably drops like a stone.

I guess s04 would be a candidate but I am a bit afraid that it might show it's tartness.

The plan is to have about 50% of the fermentables in the braggot coming from malt and the rest from honey.

The honey will obviously ferment dry, that's why I want to keep as much sweetness from the malt as possible by choosing the right yeast for this specific job.

What would you choose?

 

[couchsending]

London ESB
S-33

Both struggle with Maltotriose. A short rest at 160 would probably keep the gravity pretty high.

 

[Miraculix]

London ESB
S-33

Both struggle with Maltotriose. A short rest at 160 would probably keep the gravity pretty high.

I tried London ESB.... got around 75-78% attenuation with it and it does not flocc very well. Actually, it doesn't flocc at all...

 

[ESBrewer]

Does it need to be dry..? Fuller's yeast should make a good mead (so they say) and it is the lowest attenuating yeast in the White Labs chart (based on their rough estimates). It drops extremely clear post fermentation, even without cold crashing. But you have probably used it in beers already.

 

[couchsending]

I tried London ESB.... got around 75-78% attenuation with it and it does not flocc very well. Actually, it doesn't flocc at all...

Whoops, yeah didn’t read the flocculation part. I confirmed it doesn’t eat Maltotriose so amazed you got that attenuation.

Looking at the Lallemand and Fermentis catalogs I’m not sure there is a dry yeast from them that would work. Wyeast 1968/002 is probably what you need. S04 probably has the best flocculation characteristics. If you mash for 15 minutes at 158-162 you would get a ton of unfermentables and a higher FG.

You could also try Primary with CBC-1 or F2. They’re meant for bottle refermentation and they definitely don’t eat complex sugars. They’re supposedly neutral.

 

[ESBrewer]

For liquid yeasts, you could also have a look at suregork's site and the data published by Gallone & White Labs that ranks the ability of each strain to use maltotriose.

 

[Miraculix]

Does it need to be dry..? Fuller's yeast should make a good mead (so they say) and it is the lowest attenuating yeast in the White Labs chart (based on their rough estimates). It drops extremely clear post fermentation, even without cold crashing. But you have probably used it in beers already.

Haven't brewed with it until now but thought about it. But I really would prefer something dry... just for convinience. I am going to do lots of small batches and splitting and propagating liquid yeast is a pain....

I was quite amazed regarding the attenuation as well. Got some bug problems since I brewed some kveik, will see if the beer will taste like Kveik in a few weeks time or not. If not, the attenuation was really just the yeast i intended to use

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As people have said above, there's no obvious dry candidate - maybe Mangrove Jack M15, but that might be a bit too characterful, depending what style you're going for, and it dies at not much more than 8% ABV. Or maybe the ordinary Munton's (not Gold)? Everyone seems to hate its low attenuation, I've seen mixed reports on its flocculation. I've never used it but I wonder if it's a wine yeast.

Or just go the whole hog with a POF- wine yeast like K1-V1116?

If you're going with liquid, WLP002/1968 is an obvious one but don't ignore the related WLP041.

 

[Miraculix]

As people have said above, there's no obvious dry candidate - maybe Mangrove Jack M15, but that might be a bit too characterful, depending what style you're going for, and it dies at not much more than 8% ABV. Or maybe the ordinary Munton's (not Gold)? Everyone seems to hate its low attenuation, I've seen mixed reports on its flocculation. I've never used it but I wonder if it's a wine yeast.

Or just go the whole hog with a POF- wine yeast like K1-V1116?

If you're going with liquid, WLP002/1968 is an obvious one but don't ignore the related WLP041.

Thanks mate, I appreciate your input. Funny enough,I just happened to give m15 multiple test runs and decided to use this yeast for my house ale. Really nice esters and excellent flocculation but also attenuation around 80%. So not suitable for this job.

I like your wine yeast idea, don't know why I haven't thought about it. Do you know if there is something like a pof- high flocculation wine yeast?

The ones I worked with were all quite powdery... Maybe it is going to be the fullers strain at the end but I really would like to omit liquid yeast.

 

[dmtaylor]

Windsor, the one, the only.

 

[Miraculix]

Windsor, the one, the only.

But quite powdery, isn't it?

 

[couchsending]

All the wine yeasts have horrible flocculation

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Interesting you got M15 that high, I've still got some waiting to be used in the fridge but I'd been led to believe it wasn't that high. The MJ catalogue calls it 70-75%, but I see the website now lists it as "high", which is interesting.

I suspect that K1-V1116 is probably your only option for a POF-wine yeast in retail packs in the UK, for obvious reasons we don't get a huge selection here compared to some other countries, you might be able to get a better choice in Germany? I listed the POF- wine yeasts here. It's a sign of wine yeasts' lack of domestication that they're not great at floccing - but if you're planning to leave them a long time then that's maybe less of an issue, and perhaps you could use a conditioning yeast like F-2 or CBC-1 to help drop them out? OTOH at least they have great alcohol tolerance, K1-V1116 should be good for at least 18%, maybe 20% ABV. It's one option to think about.


PS OT but whilst I was on the "threads I've started" page, it looks like you might not have seen my thread about old German styles?

 

[corax]

Doesn't attenuation partly depend on the wort? IOW, if all the sugars in your wort were simple mono- and disaccharides, wouldn't even a "low attenuation" yeast strain reach pretty high levels of attenuation?

 

[dmtaylor]

But quite powdery, isn't it?

Not in the slightest. Complete opposite actually. It's gloopy, sticky, falls out completely very very fast, like no other yeast on earth. At least in beer. I've never tried it in cider or mead, not yet anyway.

 

[Miraculix]

Doesn't attenuation partly depend on the wort? IOW, if all the sugars in your wort were simple mono- and disaccharides, wouldn't even a "low attenuation" yeast strain reach pretty high levels of attenuation?

Yes that is true. This is why I asked for a low attenuation yeast when using wort.

 

[Miraculix]

Not in the slightest. It's gloopy, sticky, falls out completely very very fast, like no other yeast on earth.

Da fuq?! I was omitting this yeast for AGES just because I might have confused attenuation with flocculation when I first read about it?!

Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[corax]

Yes that is true. This is why I asked for a low attenuation yeast when using wort.

My point is that maybe you need to lessen the fermentability of your wort for a "low attenuation" strain to actually behave that way. So, high-temp. mash, inclusion of dextrine malt, etc.

 

[Miraculix]

My point is that maybe you need to lessen the fermentability of your wort for a "low attenuation" strain to actually behave that way. So, high-temp. mash, inclusion of dextrine malt, etc.

Of course. And to maximise this effect, the right yeast is necessary. This is why I asked for opinions regarding the right yeast for this job.

 

[dmtaylor]

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Windsor doesn't have much trouble eating simple sugars. It's the malt sugars that it struggles with most. But also I theorize that the high flocculation characteristics might possible be a struggle to get it to ferment out enough before it settles out, especially in mead or cider or braggot. Swirl, swirl, swirl the fermenter, every day.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Doesn't attenuation partly depend on the wort? IOW, if all the sugars in your wort were simple mono- and disaccharides, wouldn't even a "low attenuation" yeast strain reach pretty high levels of attenuation?

Of course, but when you're talking about comparing yeasts then it's assumed you're talking about a standard wort to allow comparisons. I must admit, I'd be tending towards just using grist mix and high mash temperatures for this one given the requirement for dry yeast.

Worth noting that S-33 (very close relative of Windsor) is described by Fermentis as "-" flocculation and middling sedimentation - the two are not the same although homebrewers tend to conflate them. Lallemand say :

In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort at 20°C (68°F) Windsor yeast exhibits:
Vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 3 days
Medium attenuation and Low flocculation
Fruity and Estery flavor and aroma, typical of traditional English style ales
The optimal temperature range for Windsor yeast when producing traditional styles is 15°C(59°F) to
22°C(72°F)
Windsor does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units).

 

[Miraculix]

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Windsor doesn't have much trouble eating simple sugars. It's the malt sugars that it struggles with most. But also I theorize that the high flocculation characteristics might possible be a struggle to get it to ferment out enough before it settles out, especially in mead or cider or braggot. Swirl, swirl, swirl the fermenter, every day.

I am going to give Windsor a try, thanks for mentioning.

 

[Miraculix]

Of course, but when you're talking about comparing yeasts then it's assumed you're talking about a standard wort to allow comparisons. I must admit, I'd be tending towards just using grist mix and high mash temperatures for this one given the requirement for dry yeast.

Worth noting that S-33 (very close relative of Windsor) is described by Fermentis as "-" flocculation and middling sedimentation - the two are not the same although homebrewers tend to conflate them. Lallemand say :

hmmm... so maybe I was not completely wrong with my previous assumption. Anyway, only one way to find out. I am going to order some now and will hopefully recieve it before the weekend so that I can use it in a small 4l batch