Liquid Yeast Beers Always Seem a Bit... Well, Not as Good as Dried Yeast

[nicklawmusic]

I wonder if anyone can help me? Generally, the beers I make using dried yeast (usually Safale S04 or US05) turnout much better than the ones where I use a liquid yeast strain.

I use a yeast starter for all the beers I make using liquid least; I use a stir plate to keep it oxygenated, I used temperature control to keep the least happy, and I pitch with 48 hours of making the starter. I also oxygenate my wort by vigorously shaking for 5 minutes.

My beers ferment down to their target gravity (or within a few points), but for some reason, the quality of the beer always seems to have a sweetness and in fermented taste about it. (I'm doing BIAB).

I've had success with a milk stout using London ale yeast (white labs), but my latest batch - a Smoked Porter - just doesn't taste very good.

I'm trying to ascertain whether I need to be feeding my yeast starter more spray malt, or whether - in this case - having to mash a KG of grains in a separate bucket (as I miscalculated my water to grain BIAB ratio) is to blame.

I'm erring towards the former as it tastes very similar to two other beers that didn't ferment out properly.

Thoughts?!

 

[badlee]

What kind of gravity are your starters? People will say that anything from 1.030- 1.040 is good.
Also,is it maybe just that the luquid strains you are choosing are 1) not suited to the brew,or 2) have lower attenuation than, say 05 and thus are leaving the beer with a sweeter feel?

 

[joshesmusica]

or is it unfermentable sugars from the mash? or is it a combination of all of the above?
when i first read the title, before even diving into the post, my first assumption was underpitching. what size batch are you generally making?

 

[brewguyver]

I'm guessing you're not cold crashing and decanting your starter given the short time frame. If your starter is large (say 1-2 liters of liquid) into a batch of five gallons or less, you may notice all that oxygenated wort flavor in the final product.

I usually run my starters for at least 3 days and then cold crash, or I don't put them on a stir plate so that the wort I'm dumping in isn't heavily oxygenated.

 

[kh54s10]

If decanted and not getting bad flavors from the starter wort, I would lean toward yeast choice. Are you comparing similar strains? i.e. Us05 WL001 and Wy1056 are all Chico strains. I personally cannot tell much difference one to another. If you are comparing Us05 to London Ale yeast the flavors will be quite different.

I use dry and liquid. I have used some types that I like better than others. You might also be using a strain that is not really suited to the style of the beer.

I have no preference between dry and liquid. Liquid gives you a lot more choices though.

 

[nicklawmusic]

Thanks everyone. In answer to your questions:

• The gravity is usually around 1.040

• The strain was White Labs British Ale Yeast.

• In this instance the batch size was 7 gallons. I was supposed to be making a 5 gallon batch, but for some stupid reason, I filled my brew kettle with 30L of water and had 6KG (might have been slightly less) of grains. It meant that around 1-1.5KG of Maris Otter got mashed separately and added to the wort.

• The grist was (something like) 4.5KG Maris Otter, 700g Smoked Malt, 200g Black Malt, 200g Crystal 120, 200g Caramunich I, 300g Torrified wheat

• I have been decanting or cold crashing my 2L starters. Am I supposed to be?

• Because my fermentor only holds 6 gallons to have enough head room, I had to put some in a demijohn (1 gallon). I poured most of the yeast starter into the main batch, but poured around 200ml into the demijohn. The airlock on the main fermentor started very slowly in comparison with the demijohn, which went nuts! I had to use a blow off tube and everything!

 

[nicklawmusic]

If I'm dumping most of the starts having cold crashed it, how do I get the yeast out?

 

[nicklawmusic]

Come to think of it, my starter was 1.5L. I still dumped around 150ml-200ml into the demijohn.

Starting to get the feeling I under-pitched to my main batch. When I saw the airlock wasn't bubbling, I took the lid off to look and there was plenty creamy yeast on top, so I didn't worry too much at that point.

If I did under pitch, what would the beer taste like? Also, how can you tell if you have enough viable yeast cells in your starter? The tube was sat in my fridge for around 3 weeks before I made my starter.

 

[nicklawmusic]

Sorry, one other question:

I cracked two open yesterday (it's been two weeks). They seemed a bit under carbonated and not much yeast sediment at the bottom of the bottle like usual. I used the right amount f priming sugar in each bottle.

Any ideas? Could it be the yeast had had enough come bottling?

 

[joshesmusica]

some stuff about off flavors:
http://www.morebeer.com/themes/morewinepro/mmpdfs/mb/off_flavor.pdf
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

this is my personal preference of doing a starter:
http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/no-more-wasteful-yeast-starters.html
i've done that method 4 times now with no problems at all, 2 using harvested yeast, 2 using fresh liquid yeast.

I cracked two open yesterday (it's been two weeks). They seemed a bit under carbonated and not much yeast sediment at the bottom of the bottle like usual. I used the right amount f priming sugar in each bottle.

Any ideas? Could it be the yeast had had enough come bottling?

it does sound like to me that you possibly underpitched, but they wouldn't fully quit on you. if that's the case, you still have some viable yeast in there, even if it wasn't quite enough. what temp did you store your bottles at? at around 65-66, mine usually take 3 weeks to fully carbonate. I can get some to be fully carbonated at 2 weeks, but because you possibly didn't have enough viable yeast, it could take a bit longer. But if there was some carbonation, then my guess is, with a little more time, these will get there.

The real question is, how did it taste so far after it being in the bottle?

 

[azazel1024]

Carbonation can take awhile depending on the temp, how long it was in the fermenter first, etc. In the summer time when my bottles are stored at around 72-75F in my basement, they carb up fully in roughly 2 weeks. In the winter time when they are in the 63-66F range, it takes closer to 3 weeks.

I've had one or two near "stuck" carbs where the beer was just too cold for too long and the yeast wouldn't really wake up. So I tossed the bottles on top of my oil furnace to warm up to around 80F or so for a couple of days and then stuck them on my shelves. BOOM! Solved the lazy carbonation issue (one batch after 10 days had maybe 10% carbonation, stuck it on the oil furnace for 2 days, pulled it off and 3 more days after that I opened one and it was maybe 80% carbonated. waited another week and its perfect now).

Nicklawmusic, you are a bit unclear. So you have NOT been cold crashing your starter? Have you been decanting the starter wort off the yeast cake whether you have been cold crashing or not?

Especially if you are pitching starter wort in to the batch, it'll give you some off flavors unless you drain off most of it first. If you are asking how to get the yeast out of the flask, a lot of brewers leave 100ml or so of starter wort in the flask and decant the rest. Then just swirl it up. I prefer to decant all of it (well, maybe a few ml left) and then use a sanitized half cup measure to pour some wort in to the flask once it is at pitch temps and swirl up the yeast cake using that.

Also According to Saffale S-04 is 75% attenuative, according to White Labs, WLP005 ranges from 67-74%. So it is a lot more likely to leave the resulting beer a little sweeter. Without having used WLP005 to be able to judge, with my S04 experience, I get from 74-77% attenuation with it the 3-4 times I've used it.

 

[nicklawmusic]

Joshesmusicca: It didn't taste bad, just on the sweet side and a bit lifeless. Thought for a smoked porter it would have been smoker!

 

[nicklawmusic]

Azazel1024: I'm afraid to say that I haven't decanted my starter wort. I'm guessing that I should have done that?!

 

[nicklawmusic]

My bottles were sat in my bedroom for around 12 days in front of a radiator.

 

[joshesmusica]

My bottles were sat in my bedroom for around 12 days in front of a radiator.

12 days isn't long enough for bottle conditioning. some of that sweetness will fade a bit the more carbonated it becomes. what temp is it in front of your radiator? that's pretty warm i would imagine? if it were me i would want them sitting at a cozy 21C to condition.

 

[kh54s10]

Depending on which smoked malt the amount you used could either be slight or in the case of peat smoked malt it would be over powering. How fresh the smoked malt is will also have a big effect.

I am not sure how your volume mistake and correction did to the final product. You diluted it quite a bit by collecting 7 gallons for a 5 gallon recipe then added more wort which depending on the gravity might have upped the OG or even lowered it based on the volume.

For bottle conditioning it may take 3 weeks or longer to fully carbonate. I have had some that were carbonated at 2 weeks, some took quite a bit longer. But, ALL of them tasted better at 3 weeks or longer.

Sediment in the bottles is not much of an indication. Some of my dark beers had a lot of sediment, some of the light ones nearly none.

 

[badlee]

@joshesmusica
I get perfect carbonation in 4 days after a two week primary.
It sounds to me like there is very little yeast carry-over into his bottles.

 

[Yooper]

@joshesmusica
I get perfect carbonation in 4 days after a two week primary.
It sounds to me like there is very little yeast carry-over into his bottles.

Weird, because I never do. I would be surprised if my beers did carb in under 7 days, though. Still, there is literally hundreds of billions of yeast in a beer even that sat in the fermenter for weeks. In order to have very little yeast carry-over, someone would have to hold the beer near freezing for weeks, but even then the beer will carb up in 3 weeks. In order to get it to carb up in 4 days, the beers must either have to be still fermenting, held at a very warm temperature, or a yeasty mess. That's not really a good goal.

 

[grathan]

Sweetness in liquid yeast can come from diacetyl from not aerating properly.

 

[brewguyver]

Weird, because I never do. I would be surprised if my beers did carb in under 7 days, though. Still, there is literally hundreds of billions of yeast in a beer even that sat in the fermenter for weeks. In order to have very little yeast carry-over, someone would have to hold the beer near freezing for weeks, but even then the beer will carb up in 3 weeks. In order to get it to carb up in 4 days, the beers must either have to be still fermenting, held at a very warm temperature, or a yeasty mess. That's not really a good goal.

Or it's ready to explode after 8-12 days. I'd be afraid of any beer that bottle conditioned successfully in 4 days.

 

[snow16]

Not to over-simplify, but could at least part of the issue be that you're comparing a not-so-attenuative British Ale strain to a machine of a dry yeast like SO-5?

 

[badlee]

Weird, because I never do. I would be surprised if my beers did carb in under 7 days, though. Still, there is literally hundreds of billions of yeast in a beer even that sat in the fermenter for weeks. In order to have very little yeast carry-over, someone would have to hold the beer near freezing for weeks, but even then the beer will carb up in 3 weeks. In order to get it to carb up in 4 days, the beers must either have to be still fermenting, held at a very warm temperature, or a yeasty mess. That's not really a good goal.

Well, I condition at room temperature over here in Thailand,which probably averages about 77F. Never had any problems with the way I do it

 

[nicklawmusic]

I have a stir plate, so I doubt my aeration in the starter is to blame.

 

[joshesmusica]

Well, I condition at room temperature over here in Thailand,which probably averages about 77F. Never had any problems with the way I do it

well please do make a new thread telling us all how you've refined the process to get it to carb up in 4 days. you're definitely the exception to the rule of bottle conditioning. i've never heard of bottles carbed in four days unless they were force carbed. like not once. ever. i've heard some people claim a week and a half, but really if you get those guys to admit it, it wasn't fully carbed, just carbed enough that they enjoyed it. so please enlighten us all so we can all save 2 1/2 weeks in our process! i just bottled some yesterday in order to enjoy them at a friend's birthday in 3 weeks. if i can enjoy them in four days, i would be one happy camper, as they are a very hop-forward beer!

 

[joshesmusica]

Not to over-simplify, but could at least part of the issue be that you're comparing a not-so-attenuative British Ale strain to a machine of a dry yeast like SO-5?

yeah i think this could also be part of the problem.
fermentis claims an 81% apparent attenuation for US-05. so if he's comparing to that one, then there's going to be a difference.
but if he's comparing to S-04. they claim that one to be about 75%. while wyeast has wlp005 at 67-74%. so about the same. (it's likely fermentis is just claiming the top range of their apparent attenuation, while wyeast gives you a better range to expect).

also OP, this is a quote from wyeast:
"This yeast is a little more attenuative than WLP002. Like most English strains, this yeast produces malty beers. Excellent for all English style ales including bitter, pale ale, porter, and brown ale." so it seems that expecting this to be maltier (sweeter) is the norm.

 

[nicklawmusic]

I wouldn't describe the taste as being really malty. I've just made a red eye beer which tastes very malty. It's hard to describe. It just tastes on the sweet side and a bit dull and lifeless, though that may be down to carbonation more than anything.

 

[kh54s10]

I wouldn't describe the taste as being really malty. I've just made a red eye beer which tastes very malty. It's hard to describe. It just tastes on the sweet side and a bit dull and lifeless, though that may be down to carbonation more than anything.

Give us an update in a week or two when it is fully conditioned.

Given the volume mistake and the comparison of 2 different yeasts I am not sure anything can truly be determined here though.

I am also interested in the 4 day carbonation. Even at the temperatures stated, it is impossible that they are properly conditioned.

 

[grathan]

I have a stir plate, so I doubt my aeration in the starter is to blame.

No I meant aerating the fermenter. The yeast still need to multiply in the fermenter unless your making like a 1-2 gallon starter. If they don't have aeration to do that, then they will probably be stressed, meaning even if they finish fermenting, they will be too worn out to clean up the diacetyl.

 

[masaba]

No I meant aerating the fermenter. The yeast still need to multiply in the fermenter unless your making like a 1-2 gallon starter. If they don't have aeration to do that, then they will probably be stressed, meaning even if they finish fermenting, they will be too worn out to clean up the diacetyl.

He said in his opening post that he is aerating the wort in the fermenter.

 

[nicklawmusic]

I am aerating my wort in the fermentor, yes, having made that error before!