Link between RO+minerals and loss of yeast character?

[rhys333]

Since I switched to RO + minerals I've been unable to get ANY yeast character in my beer. I've used some of the most characterful British and Belgian strains and they turn out like they've been brewed with US05.

I've done everything imaginable... low pitch rate, low aeration, cool vs warm fermentation and they always turn out neutral. The only "estery" batches I have ever produced were when I used tap water instead of my now-standard RO with minerals (usually CaCl2, gypsum and Epsom). I use the same ingredients and equipment as others in my community, but I'm the only one experiencing this from those I've asked. The only obvious difference is that I modify, water and they do not.

Anybody else experiencing this? I'm at a complete loss as to what else I could be.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Give us an example of one of your character free recipes, complete with grist and water quantities (strike and sparge), mineralization of strike and sparge water, and acidification of mash and sparge, etc... What software is guiding your mineralization and mash/strike pH adjustments?

 

[rhys333]

Give us an example of one of your character free recipes, complete with grist and water quantities (strike and sparge), mineralization of strike and sparge water, and acidification of mash and sparge, etc... What software is guiding your mineralization and mash/strike pH adjustments?

Sure thing...

1.055 OG BELGIAN
84% 2 Row
6% Victory
6% C40
4% Honey Malt
Hallertauer Trad @ 60 & 15. 26 IBU
WY 3878. No starter.

Mash 154F for 60 @ 5.5 pH in 3.4 gal. Sparge 4.0 gal + pre boil top-up. BIAB system.
Ca: 71 Mg: 5 SO4:86 Cl:77 using Bru'n Water. Included 1/2 tsp WY yeast nutrient and 1 tsp irish moss (boil). Minimal aeration (pass through seive only). Pitched low 60s. Ramped to mid 70s. Fast fermentation. Primary only.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I'm sorry you're experiencing this Rhys, but it's a great subject and one I've often wondered about (not just in brewing - but in cooking and agriculture as well). Hope we can get to the bottom of this for your benefit, and for some general knowledge as well.

 

[rhys333]

I'm sorry you're experiencing this Rhys, but it's a great subject and one I've often wondered about (not just in brewing - but in cooking and agriculture as well). Hope we can get to the bottom of this for your benefit, and for some general knowledge as well.

I do believe I'll take a gamble with my unpredictable local river water on the next Belgian. I'd rather not, but I suspect some critical compounds are missing with water building.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Living in Madison, with terrible brewing water, this will be my first time building from RO myself, Rhys, so I've been curious myself. I've been fortunate to have decent water wherever we have lived (sometimes a bit high on carbonates, but I brewed a lot of dark ales, otherwise boiled and/or used acids, for the most part - rich in other brewing minerals), so this will be a first.

Do you know much about your river water? I'd die for a natural source.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I don't see grist weights, specific mineral quantities added, and/or acidification quantity/type/concentration (if any) added. Was your mash pH measured at room temperature, or implied via software?

 

[rhys333]

I don't see grist weights, specific mineral quantities added, and/or acidification quantity/type/concentration (if any) added. Was your mash pH measured at room temperature, or implied via software?

To make things easy for everyone I list amounts as ratios rather than converting between units and batch sizes. pH is measured at RT, no acid as this batch didn't need it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My 'Mash Made Easy' mash pH assistant spreadsheet indicates that your mash pH should have been mainstream normal (right close to 5.4) with no acidification. Strange that you are perceiving it to be characterless. With RO there is always the potential for unexpected alkalinity to be present, and if that was the case it would raise the mash pH a bit and perhaps make it somewhat less crisp and more dull or muted in character. What mash pH did you actually measure?

 

[rhys333]

My 'Mash Made Easy' mash pH assistant spreadsheet indicates that your mash pH should have been mainstream normal (right close to 5.4) with no acidification. Strange that you are perceiving it to be characterless. With RO there is always the potential for unexpected alkalinity to be present, and if that was the case it would raise the mash pH a bit and perhaps make it somewhat less crisp and more dull or muted in character. What mash pH did you actually measure?

It's not a pH issue as this and previous batches are clean and crisp. The yeast isn't producing esters and phenolic and I'm wondering if it's just me experiencing this or if it's prevalent among brewers that build water from RO or distilled.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It's not a pH issue as this and previous batches are clean and crisp. The yeast isn't producing esters and phenolic and I'm wondering if it's just me experiencing this or if it's prevalent among brewers that build water from RO or distilled.

You could try brewing the identical recipe using artesian spring water to see if it changes the ester level. I for one would certainly be interested in the difference in the results. It may inspire me to return to brewing with natural artesian spring water.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

"Natural artesian spring water" tells us where the water comes from (a spring) but it doesn't tell us anything about the quality of/constituents in the water.

Russ

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

"Natural artesian spring water" tells us where the water comes from (a spring) but it doesn't tell us anything about the quality of/constituents in the water.

Russ

Yes, I fully agree. The water absolutely needs to be analysed and carefully considered from this perspective. Fortunately for me I have received the analysis for the spring water that I routinely used until I moved to my current location about 17 years ago and subsequently was removed from it by about 60 non-freeway miles. Here is the analytical I requested and received. I have not been willing to drive 120 miles for it, and I've been making my own from RO instead:

Ca 38 ppm
Mg 5.8 ppm
Cl 65 ppm
SO4 14 ppm
Na 18 ppm
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 52
ph 6.8

 

[rhys333]

You could try brewing the identical recipe using artesian spring water to see if it changes the ester level. I for one would certainly be interested in the difference in the results. It may inspire me to return to brewing with natural artesian spring water.

I was planning to use city water for the next batch, but I might go with bottled spring water depending what others here in town are using that aren't experiencing absence of esters/phenolics.

 

[rhys333]

I am very interested to hear a yea or nay from others that build water from scratch though. The silence so far is deafening. At this point I don't know if I'm alone in experiencing this or if many brewers are experiencing the same. Those that build water: are you able to brew beer with an estery and/or phenolic yeast character?

 

[McKnuckle]

I build water from scratch, and seem to be able to produce those qualities.

But this thread has me raising an eyebrow. Generally, I have tended to not push esters too much, although recently I've been experimenting with English yeast and cooling to 50F after active primary begins to slow (3-4 days). This is supposed to preserve esters rather than allowing yeast to aggressively clean them up. My brews with that ferm schedule thus far have been tasty, but not necessarily super estery, hence my raised eyebrow.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I admit that since my return to brewing only 1 year ago (after a very long absence from it) I have only used yeasts not known to toss out esters, plus I have been keeping my fermentation temperatures quite low. Nottingham and W-34/70 are all I've used in the past year since I made a comeback. As should be expected, I haven't noticed much in the way of esters, but I've also been concerned about a general "lack of something" (using the only term I can think of, and hearkening back to my brews made with the spring water I profiled above). Missing character would be another good descriptor. So my eyebrows are raised also. Perhaps when it comes to water you just can't fool mother nature. Either that or my taste buds and sense of smell have simply dulled with age. 41 years of involvement in the business of some rather nasty chemical synthesis processes may easily have caused that. ???

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There is one other thing that I did not factor in above. Pre my extended layoff from brewing I had always used liquid yeast and a starter. Since my return I've used only dry yeast in an effort to simplify things. Perhaps some to much of what I'm perceiving as lack of character is due to this difference. ???

 

[mabrungard]

I've also converted to using mostly dry yeasts for my brews and I wouldn't be surprised if that might lead to less 'character' in my beers. While they are clean and refreshing, maybe they aren't as estery.

With respect to building water for brewing, the only aspect that a brewer might not be replicating when starting with RO or distilled water is micro-nutrients. The main one that is important for yeast performance is zinc. Zinc is readily stripped from water in the RO process and most raw water supplies have very little to start with. So including a yeast nutrient or zinc sulfate in the water could be a good idea. Be careful though! It takes only a teeny amount of zinc to screw up the beer taste.

Less is more!!!!

 

[Big Monk]

I've also converted to using mostly dry yeasts for my brews and I wouldn't be surprised if that might lead to less 'character' in my beers. While they are clean and refreshing, maybe they aren't as estery.

Lallemand Abbaye was a big score for those looking for a Trappist dry yeast. Dry yeast variety in general is pretty damn good right now.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

.....With respect to building water for brewing, the only aspect that a brewer might not be replicating when starting with RO or distilled water is micro-nutrients. The main one that is important for yeast performance is zinc. Zinc is readily stripped from water in the RO process and most raw water supplies have very little to start with. So including a yeast nutrient or zinc sulfate in the water could be a good idea. Be careful though! It takes only a teeny amount of zinc to screw up the beer taste.

Martin, is there a preferred yeast nutrient that you highly recommend? Would you know if zinc is a component of the nutrient blend? I've only used yeast nutrient in wine making. I had always been told that it isn't necessary in beer brewing, but my information with regard to that advice is well dated.

 

[mabrungard]

Martin, is there a preferred yeast nutrient that you highly recommend? Would you know if zinc is a component of the nutrient blend? I've only used yeast nutrient in wine making. I had always been told that it isn't necessary in beer brewing, but my information with regard to that advice is well dated.

Highly Recommend? I don't have enough information on their contents to make recommendations. However, I've used the Wyeast product. I'm not really sure that it made a difference since we're dealing with POTENTIAL deficiencies, not known deficiencies. I can say that the product did not damage the beer.

I do know that fermenting a substance that is primarily simple sugars like honey or some juices, may benefit more from nutrient addition. Wort is pretty nutritious to yeast.

With regard to zinc, an Anheuser Busch brewer was quoted some years ago saying that lager yeast may benefit from a zinc sulfate heptahydrate addition of 1 gram per 20 barrels. Ale yeast may benefit from double that rate (1 gram per 10 barrels). As you can see, this means that the addition would be exceedingly small at the homebrew scale.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Highly Recommend? I don't have enough information on their contents to make recommendations. However, I've used the Wyeast product. I'm not really sure that it made a difference since we're dealing with POTENTIAL deficiencies, not known deficiencies. I can say that the product did not damage the beer.

I do know that fermenting a substance that is primarily simple sugars like honey or some juices, may benefit more from nutrient addition. Wort is pretty nutritious to yeast.

With regard to zinc, an Anheuser Busch brewer was quoted some years ago saying that lager yeast may benefit from a zinc sulfate heptahydrate addition of 1 gram per 20 barrels. Ale yeast may benefit from double that rate (1 gram per 10 barrels). As you can see, this means that the addition would be exceedingly small at the homebrew scale.

I use Wyeast Yeast Nutrient also since I started using RO water. It was the only one I saw at the time that contained Zinc.

I also notice a lack of character in using RO water. However I started doing some LODO brewing techniques at the same time, so I'm not sure if its related to RO water or not. I did use an 80/20 RO/Tap blend in this past brew, which is the most tap water I've used in a while. I'll taste it soon to see if it holds the same. But I guess the characteristics I've noticed have been:

-Smooth (to the point of being too smooth, or bland)
-Less carbonic bite
-Muted yeast character, except when using a saison or trappist strain

 

[rhys333]

Until recently, I have been brewing mostly clean beers with only an occasional attempt at a hefe or Belgian so I've dismissed lack of yeast character as a one-off. It's only of late, as I get more into Belgian styles, that I'm noticing how my beers with 1214, 3787, 3724 etc taste like they were brewed with US05. Wonderfully clean thanks in no small part to brewing software, but decidedly funk-free.

I do use the Wyeast nutrient as I find it helps to promote strong fermentation and improved health for next generation harvested yeast. Still no yeast character though.

I have found a few scientific articles online linking esters with minerals and nutrients, but I have to admit that much of it is well over my head.

 

[Big Monk]

Until recently, I have been brewing mostly clean beers with only an occasional attempt at a hefe or Belgian so I've dismissed lack of yeast character as a one-off. It's only of late, as I get more into Belgian styles, that I'm noticing how my beers with 1214, 3787, 3724 etc taste like they were brewed with US05. Wonderfully clean thanks in no small part to brewing software, but decidedly funk-free.

I do use the Wyeast nutrient as I find it helps to promote strong fermentation and improved health for next generation harvested yeast. Still no yeast character though.

I have found a few scientific articles online linking esters with minerals and nutrients, but I have to admit that much if it is well over my head.

What are your fermentation schedules like when using the Trappist yeast? Pitching rates? What about oxygenation (rate/total ppm)?

 

[rhys333]

What are your fermentation schedules like when using the Trappist yeast? Pitching rates? What about oxygenation (rate/total ppm)?

I posted information on Pg.1, but low pitch rates, low oxygenation, and warm fermentation temp. I've played around with different combinations too. I have been able to produce esters in the past, but from what I can recall, this was when I was still using tap water instead of RO + minerals. I really don't know if it is in fact due to minerals/nutrients, but I've ruled out most other variables to the best of my ability.

I do plan to use tap water for my next Belgian, but I have a few batches stockpiled so it's going to be a few months until I get around to testing this.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I've also converted to using mostly dry yeasts for my brews and I wouldn't be surprised if that might lead to less 'character' in my beers. While they are clean and refreshing, maybe they aren't as estery.

With respect to building water for brewing, the only aspect that a brewer might not be replicating when starting with RO or distilled water is micro-nutrients. The main one that is important for yeast performance is zinc. Zinc is readily stripped from water in the RO process and most raw water supplies have very little to start with. So including a yeast nutrient or zinc sulfate in the water could be a good idea. Be careful though! It takes only a teeny amount of zinc to screw up the beer taste.

Less is more!!!!

Martin, surely it can't only be about yeast nutrition though, right? I think what I'm wondering is the lack of minerals, with even a low taste threshold, when you only add in the typical brewing salts.

An analogous pitch: Using straight NaCl for cooking, or fleur de sel. As a French chef, I used the latter. Because it's gleaned from the shores of Brittany, by serial evaporation, it contains a heck of a lot more minerals than the plain, manufactured kosher salt, let's say. So it doesn't taste "salty" so much as "bright," and I used it to finish a piece of meat or fish, just before heading out. We did blind taste testings among my staff, and they were blow away. It is a completely different thing.

So I guess when I read the OP's post, it immediately hit me, in this vein. How much does a "great" natural water contribute to the finished beer, because of the complexity of its mineralization, macro and micronutrients, as well?

 

[Big Monk]

I posted information on Pg.1, but low pitch rates, low oxygenation, and warm fermentation temp. I've played around with different combinations too. I have been able to produce esters in the past, but from what I can recall, this was when I was still using tap water instead of RO + minerals. I really don't know if it is in fact due to minerals/nutrients, but I've ruled out most other variables to the best of my ability.

I do plan to use tap water for my next Belgian, but I have a few batches stockpiled so it's going to be a few months until I get around to testing this.

I use purpose built water with distilled as the base. I typically only add CaCl, antioxidants and Yeast nutrient and always get the expected flavors with those Yeasts.

What I was doing as of late is slightly overpitching (1 M/ml/°P), O2 to ~8ppm, pitch at 64 °F and let free rise t wherever it wants.

 

[rhys333]

I use purpose built water with distilled as the base. I typically only add CaCl, antioxidants and Yeast nutrient and always get the expected flavors with those Yeasts.

What I was doing as of late is slightly overpitching (1 M/ml/°P), O2 to ~8ppm, pitch at 64 °F and let free rise t wherever it wants.

Which yeast nutrient are you using? I have toyed with the idea of halfing the amount of nutrient I use (1/2 tsp/6 gal currently). Also, you mention adding antioxidants?

 

[Big Monk]

Which yeast nutrient are you using? Also, you mention adding antioxidants?

Wyeast. 0.30 g/gal. Antioxin SBT or NaMeta/KMeta and Brewtan B.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

My latest batch that used 80/20 RO/Tap blend turned out great. It was a Marzen malt/hop bill with a kolsch yeast. While the kolsch yeast isn't one that I would consider "estery" since I was shooting for a clean lager like brew, the carbonic bite was present and was overall way more flavorful and less bland than my past few brews which were at most 90/10 and usually less than that.

Try cutting the RO with some Tap. 80/20 apparently worked for me on the last one. I'll try a 75/25 next and probably just stay there from here on out.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Remember that if you want dechlorinated tap water, your RO system makes that - use the water in the tube that feeds the RO membrane housing cap - that water has been through the sediment filter and the carbon block. Keep dechlorinated water flows out of that tube to less than about 0.5 gpm with a needle valve or even a little ball valve. Max service flow out of a 10" x 2.5" carbon block is usually 1 gpm, but going with a slower flow will allow for more complete treatment of the chlorine.

Russ

 

[rhys333]

My latest batch that used 80/20 RO/Tap blend turned out great. It was a Marzen malt/hop bill with a kolsch yeast. While the kolsch yeast isn't one that I would consider "estery" since I was shooting for a clean lager like brew, the carbonic bite was present and was overall way more flavorful and less bland than my past few brews which were at most 90/10 and usually less than that.

Try cutting the RO with some Tap. 80/20 apparently worked for me on the last one. I'll try a 75/25 next and probably just stay there from here on out.

I'm might go 50/50 on my next one. I was going to go 100% tap water, but the alkalinity is quite high.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I'm might go 50/50 on my next one. I was going to go 100% tap water, but the alkalinity is quite high.

That's the exact reason I went 100% RO. RA was sky high. Chased that off flavor for months. Something they fail to mention in Homebrewing 101.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Remember that if you want dechlorinated tap water, your RO system makes that - use the water in the tube that feeds the RO membrane housing cap - that water has been through the sediment filter and the carbon block. Keep dechlorinated water flows out of that tube to less than about 0.5 gpm with a needle valve or even a little ball valve. Max service flow out of a 10" x 2.5" carbon block is usually 1 gpm, but going with a slower flow will allow for more complete treatment of the chlorine.

Russ

Russ, I know zero, we'll remember. But if wanting it for your brewing water, couldn't you just get your RO water and leave it out uncovered overnight?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Because TFC membranes can't withstand chlorine exposure, the prefilters remove chlorine before it gets to the membrane... so, RO water should contain no chlorine.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

OK, thanks, Buckeye, perfect.

 

[rhys333]

That's the exact reason I went 100% RO. RA was sky high. Chased that off flavor for months. Something they fail to mention in Homebrewing 101.

My alkalinity is at 117mg CaCO3/L (142 ppm, if I have that conversion right). It takes a few mls of lactic acid on a dark brew to get it in range, so 50/50 or even 70/30 tap to RO should be about right depending on the SRM. I really should wait a few weeks, but I'm intrigued by the possibilities of this now and I might brew a Belgian this weekend. I should have an answer to my main question by the following weekend.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

My alkalinity is at 117mg CaCO3/L (142 ppm, if I have that conversion right). It takes a few mls of lactic acid on a dark brew to get it in range, so 50/50 or even 70/30 tap to RO should be about right depending on the SRM. I really should wait a few weeks, but I'm intrigued by the possibilities of this now and I might brew a Belgian this weekend. I should have an answer to my main question by the following weekend.

My alkalinity was 227 ppm as CaCO3 when I got my test done about 3-4 years ago.

I'm of the opinion that beer needs some regular tap water. I have no scientific reasoning to back that, and many brew with 100% RO & mineral additions and have fantastic results. Maybe Martin Brungard can chime in on it. My beers just seem more rounded, fuller, and complex with its cut with a little tap.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In further research into loss of character, I was shocked to find that in some cases this trait has been associated with mash acidification. I quote (with bolding) and also link to a 1975 source document for this (where it is found on page 68).

From some investigations, it was considered that acidification of the wort improved both the rate of lautering (see below) and the beer stability, but in at least two cases the beers produced from the acidified mashes were considered to have poor flavours being described as 'empty' and astringent, and it was felt that more attention needed to be paid to this aspect.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1975.tb03663.x/pdf

The point that peaked my interest here being that wort acidification is mentioned to improve lautering and stability, while for at least two test cases specific mention is made of mash acidification being detrimental to flavor (in the form of 'emptiness' and 'astringency'). And in no case of acidification is there mention of flavor benefit.