Limiting oxidation: effect of purging headspace O2 in a bottle conditioned IPA

[BrewerofBeers]

Is BrewTan-B good at packaging time? I ask mostly because I picked up a pack of Cellar Science "Oxblox 3D" (Dissolved Oxygen Reducer). I believe it is the "trifecta" of Metabisulfite, Ascorbic Acid and a Brewtan-B-like product ("gallotannins"). I have not used it yet. I planned to try using it pre-mash (though I do not do other LoDO brewing methods). I was not sure if this would be a good product to try at packaging time.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellarscience-oxblox-3d-dissolved-oxygen-reducer.html

I have played around a bit with using Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Metabisulfite at bottling. Both times were in non-hoppy beers (a Saison and a Belgian Single-ish beer). In those beers I could not tell a difference vs bottles that were not treated. That at least give me some confidence that I will not ruin a beer by adding anti-oxidants. I have been wanting to cycle back to this with bottling a Hazy IPA.

I debated whether to use brewtan-b or metabisulfite at bottling and decided against both. The former (MB) creates a poor condition for yeast while they prime; the latter (BTB) lacks much online info as to whether it has any benefit after the very end of the boil. Sources like WyYeast and random people state having success in strike water, the mash, or the end of the boil (0-15 minutes boil) with BTB, and at least a few minutes before the addition of a clarifier like whirlfloc in the boil. Also, Ascorbic acid and minimal headspace, and/or capping on foam, might be enough. That's why I decided against them.

What do you think about MB or BTB at bottling? So many people use MB at bottling but is it safe? Yes, it's used in wine too, at least a month prior to bottling.

Regarding Vinnie Cilurzo, he is the real deal. Russian River brewing is so good. Pliny takes top shelf. Many of beers made there rely on the Pliny backbone, but there is no doubt it's all great beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Regarding Vinnie Cilurzo, he is the real deal.

Agreed.

And the numbers he provided, based on counter-pressure filling bottles,

appears to support what was mentioned back in #1:

[...] purging O2 out of the bottle headspace helped significantly in preserving color and hop character in my bottle conditioned IPA. In contrast, an additional purge of the bottle prior to filling did not bring any noticeable benefits.

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And FWIW, I tried the swirl thing a couple of times when bottling directly from the fermenter. I didn't get foam (pretty much as expected).

 

[thefigure5]

That's also my method. It helps to attach the bottling wand to the spigot with a few inches of plastic tubing. Then I can tilt the wand at an angle to top up the bottle.

Exactly what I also do!

Thank you both for the advice. I tried the tilt method with the raspberry co-sour today, and it worked quite well. I filled to 1" of headspace rather than 1/2". The bottling wand I used had the spring, which I left in place. It worked fine. I sprayed a little Private Preserve gas before closing the Grolsch swing-top bottles, with new gaskets.

Raspberries have some vitamin C. I don't add metabisulfite. As a control, I bottled two pints without either the tilt method or Private Preserve, for comparison purposes.

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you both for the advice. I tried the tilt method with the raspberry co-sour today, and it worked quite well. I filled to 1" of headspace rather than 1/2". The bottling wand I used had the spring, which I left in place. It worked fine. I sprayed a little Private Preserve gas before closing the Grolsch swing-top bottles, with new gaskets.

Raspberries have some vitamin C. I don't add metabisulfite. As a control, I bottled two pints without either the tilt method or Private Preserve, for comparison purposes.

The taste of sours are in my experience not so prone to being attacked by oxidation in a noticeable way. There will be benefit through the method you have used, but do not be disappointed if it won't be obvious before multiple months have passed. In a really hoppy beer, you'd be able to tell the difference already after a few weeks.

I have never used the gas myself, but I have read about people having experimented with it and without it and when minimising headspace, it seems like the effect of the additional private reserve gas is neglectable. But if I'd have it flying around anyway... I'd probably also use it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

For those bottle conditioning and trying various techniques for minimizing oxidation in finished beer, in BeerSmith podcast #293, at around 17:30, Colin Kaminski mentions a couple of additional factors to consider. The factors are "new to me" and I haven't seen them discussed.

eta: Around min 28, there are some observations on bottle conditioning SPNA.

eta: mash hopping at around min 36, adding finings at min 37, ..., ...

 

[Miraculix]

For those bottle conditioning and trying various techniques for minimizing oxidation in finished beer, in BeerSmith podcast #293, at around 17:30, Colin Kaminski mentions a couple of additional factors to consider. The factors are "new to me" and I haven't seen them discussed.

eta: Around min 28, there are some observations on bottle conditioning SPNA.

eta: mash hopping at around min 36, adding finings at min 37, ..., ...

What are the points that are new to you in a nutshell?

Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What are the points that are new to you in a nutshell?

Most of them are between 15:00 and 25:00 (the guest is doing almost all the talking and it's easy to catch them at 1.5x).

The full podcast is worth a listen - Colin is an exceptional guest on this episode

 

[Gadjobrinus]

If I do the top-off like I mentioned above, it's enough CO2 to foam from the bottling wand. Leave 1/2" and cap.

Resurrecting but linked to from another thread. Do you mean using a spring-loaded bottle filler, you fill slowly and then basically goose it at the end for capping on foam?

What about a small tap of the bottle on the floor or whatever surface?

 

[MaxStout]

Resurrecting but linked to from another thread. Do you mean using a spring-loaded bottle filler, you fill slowly and then basically goose it at the end for capping on foam?

What about a small tap of the bottle on the floor or whatever surface?

Basically, yes, but after filling to the neck I withdraw the bottle filler, tip it at an angle and goose it by pressing the tip on the inside of the bottle's mouth to top it up. I do it mainly to reduce headspace to around 1/2" or so. It does create some foam from dissolved CO2 coming out of solution, so that's how I get the cap-on-foam effect. No need to tap the bottle.

 

[thefigure5]

The full podcast is worth a listen - Colin is an exceptional guest on this episode

I agree that BeerSmith Podcast #293 is worth a listen. The capping on foam presented in it is of the counter-pressure bottling variety, which I can't do, but there are informative tidbits throughout.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

there are informative tidbits throughout.

... including a comment on old stale canned LME (oxygen in the head space in the container) and a couple of comments on "fresh malt taste".

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Many techniques for packaging beer to be stable for six months can be adapted for home brewing.

OTOH ...

"Small batches, stored cool, and consumed promptly" can also be an attractive (and perhaps effective) approach.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I agree that BeerSmith Podcast #293 is worth a listen. The capping on foam presented in it is of the counter-pressure bottling variety, which I can't do, but there are informative tidbits throughout.

The comments on oxygen left over from sanitizer water stood out to me. It sounds like he measured and just a little residual solution shot up oxygen levels. I know I still have a bit of StarSan solution left after purging a keg. I have a bottle tree, so I could let my bottles drain fully. When I am just filling a few bottles off a keg, I tend to just sanitize and shake out the majority of the remaining solution. On the other hand, I have not noticed oxidation issues with my process even for NEIPAs in kegs or bottles filled from a keg and stored for months.

 

[ncbrewer]

They did mention that bottle conditioning helps with the dissolved oxygen since the yeast takes up oxygen. I've found that to be true. I had an autosiphon problem when bottling and had to dip and pour into the bottling bucket. I was more than a little concerned about oxidized beer, but it turned out fine.

 

[Langerz]

The comments on oxygen left over from sanitizer water stood out to me. It sounds like he measured and just a little residual solution shot up oxygen levels. I know I still have a bit of StarSan solution left after purging a keg. I have a bottle tree, so I could let my bottles drain fully. When I am just filling a few bottles off a keg, I tend to just sanitize and shake out the majority of the remaining solution. On the other hand, I have not noticed oxidation issues with my process even for NEIPAs in kegs or bottles filled from a keg and stored for months.

I remember that part as well. I think I do a decent job of getting star san out of kegs but it's pretty impossible to get it all. I did experiment my last batch with using fermentation gas to purge the keg. It seemed to work well and I understand the math, but when it came down to it I chickened out and still filled the keg with star san and pushed it out with CO2. I'm pretty nuts about O2 when I'm doing NEIPAs. I'll probably trust the fermentation gas method at some point. Is there a method to test oxygen level in a keg that is cost effective for a home brewer?

 

[mac_1103]

Is there a method to test oxygen level in a keg that is cost effective for a home brewer?

Sadly no.

 

[doug293cz]

Is there a method to test oxygen level in a keg that is cost effective for a home brewer?

No. O2 meters that are accurate at the part per billion level are extremely expensive.

Brew on

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Two short quotes (one on "what is freshness", one on storage) from a recent (Summer 2023) article in CB&B magazine (Randy Mosher wrote the article). It's focused on professional craft beer, but the ideas seem to apply to home brewing as well.

eta: The New IPA is a good source of information on additional minerals that can cause stalling as well as on ideas for packaging beer that's "more" shelf stable.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing. While not mandatory, because this is a hobby for most of us, it is beneficial to think and learn about these things. Most of it is just about getting away from the incorrect dogma that was taught to us when we started to brew. Once you change your mindset, brewing is just as easy as before.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Over in a different topic, I mentioned that about a year ago Colin Kaminski was the guest for Beersmith podcast #269 ("Process Control ..."). There are a couple of ideas / opinions on avoiding oxygen pickup in processes before bottling. It also provides insight into his brewing process (from start to finish) and could be a source of "new to me" ideas for brewing.

 

[agentgonzo]

For those bottle conditioning and trying various techniques for minimizing oxidation in finished beer, in BeerSmith podcast #293, at around 17:30, Colin Kaminski mentions a couple of additional factors to consider. The factors are "new to me" and I haven't seen them discussed

The podcast is a good read. When talking about capping on foam, he (and maybe someone in this thread?) talks about bubble size and "capping on foam straight from the (non pressure) fermenter". I've been doing this for years so here is what I've discovered.

When reducing the O2 in the bottle, the "foam" isn't the important part - the important part is "what is the gas inside the bubbles in the foam"? Once capped, the foam subsides, but the gas that was in the bubbles remains in the bottle, and we want this to be co2, not O2. What do we do to try to ensure we have a co2-foam and not an air-foam?

If you drop the beer into the bottle quickly from a siphon tube/tap/spigot, it will splash on the bottom of the bottle or the surface of the beer and create large bubbles full of air. This is the result of the churning action of the falling beer mixing with air to form bubbles. This foam is filled with air which is bad. If we cap on this foam, it keeps air in the headspace of the bottle, which we don't want.

However, if you don't open the tap/spigot all the way, the beer flow will be reduced and you can direct the down the side of the bottle to prevent splashing or through a bottling wand. But a second thing happens here. With a standard fermenter spigot/tap open part way, the beer will take a turbulent flow through the internals of the tap. This turbulence creates low pressure zones/nucleation sites inside the tap and some of the CO2 will come out of solution (even when not pressurised). You can hear this as a whistle. At this point, the co2 coming out of solution forms very small bubbles that sit on the top of the beer (foam) as you fill the bottle. Thus, when filled like this the foam is almost entirely made of CO2. We want to cap on this foam as it pushes the air out of the neck of the bottle and once capped ensures it's mostly CO2 in the bottle. Filling like this, I can get 1 inch of foam all the way up to the cap, which when it subsides in the bottle leaves a standard 1 inch of headspace which will be (hopefully) almost entirely CO2.

Obviously, if you can bottle from a pressurised fermenter, you can just swirl the bottle to instantly generate CO2 foam and cap on that, but for those of us who bottle from unpressurized fermenters, I've found the above (in conjunction with the reduced headspace) works really well.

I don't have a DO meter so can't actually measure the DO of the beer, so all of this is from my experience and reasoning through the science of what happens when I bottle my beer. If I've got any of the science wrong, please let me know

 

[mac_1103]

If you drop the beer into the bottle quickly from a siphon tube/tap/spigot, it will splash on the bottom of the bottle or the surface of the beer and create large bubbles full of air.

I'm glad you found a way to get the small amount of CO2 in non-pressure fermented beer to foam up so you can cap on it, but why would anyone ever splash beer into bottles from a tap or spigot? Use a bottling wand or a piece of tubing and fill from the bottom up.

 

[agentgonzo]

but why would anyone ever splash beer into bottles from a tap or spigot?

You wouldn't. I was explaining why you don't want to splash (even though you get foam). Sorry if that wasn't clear

But I don't use a bottling wand. I fill direct from the tap, but without splashing. Any O2 pickup from the beer sliding down the glass gets used up by the yeast during bottle conditioning and/or is suitably small too not affect my beers. I don't brew heavily hopped beers either.

 

[VikeMan]

I'm glad you found a way to get the small amount of CO2 in non-pressure fermented beer to foam up so you can cap on it, but why would anyone ever splash beer into bottles from a tap or spigot?

You wouldn't. I was explaining why you don't want to splash (even though you get foam)

True story: Years ago, there was a guy on another homebrew forum who had "discovered" that the key to excluding O2 while bottling was to drop fill from a spigot, splashing vigorously, thus "driving off" all the air. Of course, that's nonsense. His work was a classic example of the following brewing process development methodology.

1) Think about a potential process change, applying a severely limited understanding of physics, biology, and/or chemistry, as needed.
2) Try it, but don't directly compare the result to the result of the old, tried and true, widely accepted process. Make no objective measurements (very important)! BTW, a single trial is plenty.
3) Taste the result, assess it to be "great," and report the new best practice. Bonus points for debuting it on Youtube or a Podcast, but a forum post will do nicely.
4) Defend the new best practice by calling challengers "haters," "luddites," and believers of "homebrew lore."
5) If necessary, find and cite an entirely out of context white paper whose title seems to support the argument.
6) If necessary, misquote a vague statement allegedly uttered by Charlie Bamforth. The statement should be now unverifiable and at least 20 years old.

Ok, that was too much fun. But I have unloaded a pet peeve, temporarily anyway.

(ETA: Number 6 above is not meant as a dig at Charlie Bamforth. He knows an awful lot about brewing.)

 

[agentgonzo]

6) If necessary, misquote a vague statement allegedly uttered by Charlie Bamforth

Love it. So many people on my other forum quote Charlie as if he were God without actually understanding what he's saying

 

[Brooothru]

Love it. So many people on my other forum quote Charlie as if he were God

Well, he kinda’ really is. But as @VikeMan points out, you kinda’ have to have rudimentary knowledge of physics and other ‘sciency’ stuff to actually comprehend what ol’ Charlie is tryin’ to say.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

When reducing the O2 in the bottle, the "foam" isn't the important part - the important part is "what is the gas inside the bubbles in the foam"?

I saw this over in a recent "bottle from keg" topic

I've had success with this "quick shot of CO2" method:

• Fill a bottle to the desired level
• turn off the tap (always forget this at least once)
• lower the bottle so just the tip of the straw is in
• give a little shot of CO2 which empties the contents of the straw into the bottle, returning it to the desired level, and agitates enough to fill the bottle the rest of the way with foam.

so it looks like there's something new (to me anyway) to consider - as I have some wine preservative from previous failed attempts at using it.

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Over the past six months, I'm starting to see that the idea of "fast carbonation" (bottles at 75F with fresh yeast for a week or two) is producing better results. I'll likely try some variations and alternatives over the next year (PET bottles with no headspace, 65F rather than 75F; different "cap on foam" techniques, maybe 75F without fresh yeast).

slightly aside: I'm separating "carbonation" from "conditioning". Assuming that carbonation occurs in a week (or so), hoppy styles are usually better fresher (less conditioning) and malty styles can often benefit from additional conditioning.

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With my last couple of batches, I introduced some new (to me) techniques "up stream" - with the idea that beer will get to packaging in a "better" condition. No easy way to know for certain - as quantitative measurements appear to be too expensive.