light beer getting darker after kegging

[solo103]

So I've been having a issue brewing beers with a light SRM. So the last beer I brewed was a Whie IPA. All through fermentation it had a nice bright straw yellow color to it. It was a little cloudy but that's to be expected usin Wheat malt and a Belgian yeats that doesn't floc well. After I kegged the beer I noticed the color had significantly changed. It went from being a vibrant yellow to a dull murky almost orangish hue. This has happened to a few of the lighter colored beers ive done and its drivinfg me crazy. I thought it could be a oxidation issue but I'm extremely carefull when transferring and purge everything with co2. I know chill haze can affect clarity(wich I'm not concerned with in this beer) that could possibly change the perception of the beers color but I wouldn't think it would affect it in this way. Any thoughts? Heres the Recipe

6 gallon batch

6# Pilsner (2 srm) -45.3%
5# white wheat (2.4 srm) 37.7%
12oz Flaked Oats (1.0 srm) 5.7%
1.5 # rice hulls (0 srm) 11.3 %

.50 oz Bravo - 60min
.50 oz coriander & .50oz bitter orange peel - 5min
2 oz cascade & 2 oz Citra - 2min
dry hop - 2oz citra &1 oz cascade
wlp400 Belgian Wit

90 min boil

I'll try and post a pic of before and after kegging

 

[solo103]

Before kegging

View attachment 1459187472321.jpg

 

[Peyope]

My best guess is that the sediment fell to the bottom so the first few pours have light colored particles floating in it. After a few pours, the beer clears up a bit and has less of the sediment that reflected the lighter color.

Edit, if your comparing the color out of the carboy to the color in the glass, remember cold crashing the beer will clear it up. The beer straight from the carboy probably has yeast floating around in it. Also the graduated cylinder is more narrow than the average beer glass.

 

[solo103]

After kegging. It doesn't even look like the same beer.

View attachment 1459187515757.jpg

 

[doug293cz]

Can you describe your kegging process in detail. How you transfer, how you purge with CO2, etc.? Doesn't take much O2 to affect light beers and IPA's, and getting really low O2 levels is not trivial, but is achievable.

Brew on

 

[wi_brewer]

Have you thought that maybe it is just your glass?

Your first picture showed the beer in a hydro sample tube which is very narrow. Next you showed it in a beer glass which is much wider. Beer will always look darker when in something that is wider as less light is able to pass through it.

 

[solo103]

so before transferring from primary to secondary I purge the carboy completely with co2, then transfer with a 3/8 auto siphon with the tubing running all the way to the bottom of the carboy so it doesn't introduce oxygen. When kegging I do the same thing. Purge the keg with coz then transfer with the 3/8 auto siphon with the tubing running to the bottom of the keg. Once the keg is full I'll hit it with co2 then pull the release valve to purge any o2 that may have made its way in. After that I set the regulator to the psi I want to carb with and and let it ride.

 

[eluterio]

How long does it take before the color change is noticeable, days, weeks, months?

 

[solo103]

How long does it take before the color change is noticeable, days, weeks, months?

those pics are taken within 10 days of each other. so 10 days

 

[solo103]

Can you describe your kegging process in detail. How you transfer, how you purge with CO2, etc.? Doesn't take much O2 to affect light beers and IPA's, and getting really low O2 levels is not trivial, but is achievable.

Brew on

so before transferring from primary to secondary I purge the carboy completely with co2, then transfer with a 3/8 auto siphon with the tubing running all the way to the bottom of the carboy so it doesn't introduce oxygen. When kegging I do the same thing. Purge the keg with coz then transfer with the 3/8 auto siphon with the tubing running to the bottom of the keg. Once the keg is full I'll hit it with co2 then pull the release valve to purge any o2 that may have made its way in. After that I set the regulator to the psi I want to carb with and and let it ride.

 

[eluterio]

Ever try using your keg disconnect and attaching the line to one to transfer from carboy to keg? I used an old bucket to ferment a few years ago and attached a line to the spigot. I then attached that line to my ball lock connect. I wasn't sure if it was drain as I didn't use any pressure to push down. It was a success and gravity drained all the way into my keg without having open my lid. You can use this to make sure after you purge your keg to get not O2 and save a bit on CO2.

Also have to ask why secondary? Do an experiment and no secondary and put right into your keg. See what happens. This could rule out oxidation or minimize the introduction of o2.

Lastly, Pour some in the hydrometer tube see if its the same color. Wi Brewer might be on to something.

 

[solo103]

Ever try using your keg disconnect and attaching the line to one to transfer from carboy to keg? I used an old bucket to ferment a few years ago and attached a line to the spigot. I then attached that line to my ball lock connect. I wasn't sure if it was drain as I didn't use any pressure to push down. It was a success and gravity drained all the way into my keg without having open my lid. You can use this to make sure after you purge your keg to get not O2 and save a bit on CO2.

Also have to ask why secondary? Do an experiment and no secondary and put right into your keg. See what happens. This could rule out oxidation or minimize the introduction of o2.

Lastly, Pour some in the hydrometer tube see if its the same color. Wi Brewer might be on to something.

I haven't yet because I purge the keg with co2 and you can still see the keg full of it when I remove the lid and start to transfer. you can even see the beer as it fills up pushing the co2 out so I figured there wouldn't be any o2 in the keg especially after purging it again right after filling. I have seen people use the carboy caps with 2 nipples on them to run a stainless steel tube through one to the bottom of a carboy with a tube running into the keg and have the other end hooked up with a tube to a 1/4 inch barb x 1/4 mfl attached to with a valve that ran to a co2 tank and they would push it with a few psi (being careful not to pressurize it to much because it could break the glass) to the keg. I figured the carboy has such a small opening that not much o2 could get in.

As far a secondary I know that's a heated debate, some people swear by it some people never do it. Personally if I had a conical I would just dump the yeast and trub. I transfer to get it off the cake before I dry hop or add other adjuncts and in cases where I brew big imperial beers that I let bulk age a while before kegging that way its not sitting on the yeast cake and trub for extended periods of time. I may just brew a really light beer and cold crash it after primary is done then transfer it and see the results. Its weird because this beer was brewed with extremely light malts (2.4 srm was the highest lovibond)

I poured a sample into the hydro test tube and it was still pretty much the same color as poured in the glass. its not just that the color was a little darker but that the color had changed to a almost orangeish hue.

 

[jddevinn]

Unless you are pushing sanitizer from the keg/carboy or purging many many times you will still have a lot of O2 in the keg/carboy after "purging"

See this thread for a recent discussion https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=575247

You are oxidized, rather this is the issue or not is still to be debated.

Tables doug293cz. PPM concentration Brewing Science and practice

 

[m1k3]

The less yeast there is in suspension the darker a beer will appear.

Yeast is mostly white... I think the photos supplied are not showing anything specifically wrong in your process.

 

[solo103]

Unless you are pushing sanitizer from the keg/carboy or purging many many times you will still have a lot of O2 in the keg/carboy after "purging"

See this thread for a recent discussion https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=575247

You are oxidized, rather this is the issue or not is still to be debated.

Tables doug293cz. PPM concentration Brewing Science and practice

I do push sanitizer through the keg but then take the lid off to dump out the last little bit of sanitizer, put the lid on, fill and purge at 20psi a few times then remove the lid, rack the beer and purge 2 more times before setting carb pressure. Maybe ill build some type of contraption to do pressurized transfers. I've never noticed oxidation in any other beer I've brewed using this process but this is one of the lighter beers I've brewed. I wouldn't think such a small amount of oxygen would have that dramatic of an effect in just a few days. Thanks for posting the chart. That was a good piece of information

 

[eluterio]

I have seen people use the carboy caps with 2 nipples on them to run a stainless steel tube through one to the bottom of a carboy with a tube running into the keg and have the other end hooked up with a tube to a 1/4 inch barb x 1/4 mfl attached to with a valve that ran to a co2 tank and they would push it with a few psi (being careful not to pressurize it to much because it could break the glass) to the keg. I figured the carboy has such a small opening that not much o2 could get in.
QUOTE]

It works well it could be another process that you might consider. As for the debate not going there but I like the idea of doing a test run and seeing what happens. Life of a home brewer always something never nothing. By the way how does the beer taste???

 

[jddevinn]

I have seen people use the carboy caps with 2 nipples on them to run a stainless steel tube through one to the bottom of a carboy with a tube running into the keg and have the other end hooked up with a tube to a 1/4 inch barb x 1/4 mfl attached to with a valve that ran to a co2 tank and they would push it with a few psi (being careful not to pressurize it to much because it could break the glass) to the keg. I figured the carboy has such a small opening that not much o2 could get in.

It works well it could be another process that you might consider. As for the debate not going there but I like the idea of doing a test run and seeing what happens. Life of a home brewer always something never nothing. By the way how does the beer taste???

I used to do this as well when I used carboys. I replaced the gauge on the pushing tank with a low pressure gauge. If the pressure raised to much the carboy cap would simply pop off.

 

[jddevinn]

I do push sanitizer through the keg but then take the lid off to dump out the last little bit of sanitizer, put the lid on, fill and purge at 20psi a few times then remove the lid, rack the beer and purge 2 more times before setting carb pressure. Maybe ill build some type of contraption to do pressurized transfers. I've never noticed oxidation in any other beer I've brewed using this process but this is one of the lighter beers I've brewed. I wouldn't think such a small amount of oxygen would have that dramatic of an effect in just a few days. Thanks for posting the chart. That was a good piece of information

It sounds like you're doing MUCH better than average with O2 control. However, O2 changes with a light beer happen at very low concentrations.

Have you tried to put a sample back into the hydrometer jar for comparison? Had the sample that was light been cold crashed to remove the yeasts?

 

[solo103]

I have seen people use the carboy caps with 2 nipples on them to run a stainless steel tube through one to the bottom of a carboy with a tube running into the keg and have the other end hooked up with a tube to a 1/4 inch barb x 1/4 mfl attached to with a valve that ran to a co2 tank and they would push it with a few psi (being careful not to pressurize it to much because it could break the glass) to the keg. I figured the carboy has such a small opening that not much o2 could get in.


I used to do this as well when I used carboys. I replaced the gauge on the pushing tank with a low pressure gauge. If the pressure raised to much the carboy cap would simply pop off.

what pressure did you use to push?

 

[solo103]

It sounds like you're doing MUCH better than average with O2 control. However, O2 changes with a light beer happen at very low concentrations.

Have you tried to put a sample back into the hydrometer jar for comparison? Had the sample that was light been cold crashed to remove the yeasts?

That's what's getting at me is I know I do more than most when it comes to eliminating/keeping o2 at a minimum. I've been brewing a while now and never seemed to have a problem even going back to my extract brewing days using buckets.

I did try putting some in a hydro flask and it looked very similar to the sample in the glass. The sample that was lighter (not just lighter but more a straw yellow, where as now it has almost light orange hue ) was straight out of the fermenter the day of kegging and the darker sample in the glass was taken just 5 days later.

 

[jddevinn]

what pressure did you use to push?

The minimum to get flow. It would barely register on the low end of a 0-15psig gauge, probably around 1-2psig

 

[jddevinn]

The minimum to get flow. It would barely register on the low end of a 0-15psig gauge, probably around 1-2psig

Figure I should add that it takes the head space a couple minutes/seconds to pressurize depending on how much there is. Once you can tell there is gas moving wait a minute or two before turning the pressure up more. If you do "blow the cap" the greater the head space that you have now the longer it will take to rebuild the pressure.