Latest Favorite and Next Brew Plan

[glutarded-chris]

Hello All,

Part of this post is just sharing my latest batch that I think hits the mark for my personal target "regular brew", part of this is to get some feedback on minor ingredient and process tweaks and part is just to put a post on this section of the forum! Not much activity lately!

Latest batch... First I have to say that I prefer a pale ale or pilsner style over ambers or stouts that have sharper or "stronger" malt flavors. I am not a hop head, but I have come to realize that I like GF beers with a "firm" hop profile. I think the flavor of the GF malts need a little help and every time I try to go really light on the hop character, I end up dialing it up on later batches. I have had a few Ghostfish brews that were lightly hopped that were outstanding, but I have not been able to get there for some reason with my brews. If you find Pilsner syle boring and uninteresting, then what I have here will not interest you at all.

One of the biggest changes that I made recently was move from ale yeasts to Saflager w-34/70. I think I never really liked the fruity ale yeast character and was always trying to compensate for it. I also did not want to try to brew a "true lager" in Florida even though I have a temperature controlled ferementation fridge. Then I read some Bruelosophy Exbeeriment articles that showed that you could "safely and effectively" brew at reasonable temperature as long as you use a lager yeast like Saflagerw-34/70 that can work around 60 to 65F and 'bam' I had my zone! Then I had to dial in the hop profile as my prior experience was then rendered almost useless.

Do not think that I have anything close to a fine tasting skill ... I am just a simpleton fumbling around in the dark trying to find something that I like! For sorghum base and other "American" style beers we tend to use very citrusy hops like Cascade and Amarillo, which I like, but I wanted to find something that was a little more rounded. I was not a fan of the brews that I made with EK Goldings, so I guessed that the "grassy" and "earthy" hop varieties did not appeal to me. So my stab in the dark was to pick a mix of varieties that together would have a blend of "spicy", "floral" and "citrus" character. For bittering I used Magnum and for flavoring and aroma I used a mix of Hallertau, Columbus, Amarillo and Summit.

Question 1: When using stronger hop varieties like Amarillo and Columbus, is it a waste to use Hallertau which I understand has a more understated flavor/aroma or does it maybe "smooth out" the mix?

The last thing that I did was to "tame" the specialty additions. I think a little roasted grain character is needed with GF pale styles because I think the pale millet and pale rice are just a little too flat. But too much and you quickly move toward an amber sort of bite in my opinion.

Anyway, this one hit the mark for me! In the planning phase for the next batch and will put in an order by this weekend. This one I will incorporate Ondea Pro and will back down the Diatase a bit.

Question 2: Reading the recent post on Ondea Pro, some of the temperature profiles were with those that are using a grainfather and have the ability to move temperatures more easily. My going in plan will be to use two rests the first at ~168F with Termamyl, and the second and third rests at the same temperature (145F to 150F). I will just put in the Ondea Pro at the beginning of the rest and then the Diatase later in the rest and then wait for the gravity to begin leveling off. Thoughts?

 

[glutarded-chris]

In case anyone is interested, the summary sheet for my latest batch is below. Note: I put 9+ gallons into the fermentor and kegged 8 gallons, so keep that in mind when looking at the amounts.

 

[skleice]

Hey Chris,

Based on your post, I think you would like Biscuit 4L as a base malt. It has become a staple for me....cleaner than millet, but maltier than pale rice.

I think you'll see a nice improvement with Ondea. It creates a more maltose based sugar profile, leading to better body and head retention. You can use the Termamyl at high temps and then add the Ondea & Diastase when you drop down for the lower rest. Many people have settled on the following dosages...

Termamyl: 1ml/lb
Ondea: 1.5ml/lb
Diastase or Sebamyl L: .25ml/lb

 

[JMath]

I too am on the Biscuit 4L and Ondea Pro hype train, although I am only in the middle of my second batch with it. Now that we're getting much better yields from rice than we did previously, it might end up being my main base grain. I may not really mess with millet at all for IPAs/PAs, depending on how my current batch turns out.

Aaron from Otherwise Brewing put together a spreadsheet of the recommended enzyme dosages from the manufacturers. I think many of us learned from this that we have been wasting enzymes! Of course, going a little higher than these recommendations shouldn't hurt.

It seems like if you want to be at the forefront of this stuff right now you have to follow the Zero Tolerance club on Facebook, especially when it comes to new enzymes. It's an exciting time.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Termamyl: 1ml/lb
Ondea: 1.5ml/lb
Diastase or Sebamyl L: .25ml/lb

Brewed another batch today and used basically the same relative enzyme proportions above. I went a little higher on the ml/lb because lately I am going a bit higher on the grist ratio (about 2 quarts/lb after the temperature drop infusion). First rest with Termamyl for 30 minutes and second rest with Ondea and Diatase in at the same time for the full rest. I had been getting 23PPG consistently with Termamyl and Diatase and with adding Ondea I got 29PPG. Very good!!!

10 gallons in the fermentor. We will see how this one turns out!

 

[skleice]

Glad to hear it! For what it's worth, I've moved to using only Ceramix Flex & Ondea Pro (and primarily rice malt). There is some great info by Aaron Gervais from Otherwise Brewing regarding this:



Blogs too:
https://www.otherwisebrewing.com/blog
I can't believe how well my beers are turning out as a result of this info. Not patting myself on the back, but rather, in awe of the advances in gf brewing. Cheers!

 

[glutarded-chris]

I watched it. Good info. Will have to get some Ceramix. Probably try it on a smaller batch first.
Going to make a purchase soon!

 

[JMath]

Will be trying the Ceremix/Ondea Pro combo and a rising mash for the first time next weekend.

 

[videojunkie1208]

Will be trying the Ceremix/Ondea Pro combo and a rising mash for the first time next weekend.

worked like a champ for my stout I recently brewed.

 

[glutarded-chris]

I did some calculations and as the video from post #6 discusses, it is just not practical to get a 3 step mash without a system that allows heating. With infusions only, it just does not work well because the final rest is so high. I have found that below a grist ratio of about 1, the mash is too stiff. If you dial in a grist ratio of 1 on the first 125F rest, then to get to the 145F and 175F rests you have to get to a grist ratio of about 2.5. That does not leave a lot for sparging unless you are willing to boil a bunch off which I am not. Also that will overflow the mash tun that I currently have for the batch size I am using :-(

With a heating and recirculation system you start with the grist ratio and enzyme load you are going to have for the remainder of the mash and you are assured that the enzymes are distributed. Much easier to dial in proportions and track from batch to batch. With infusions, the dilution of enzymes changes with every rest etc. I am using about 25% rice and 12% buckwheat, so I expect I will need the 3 step mash to use the rising mash method.

Eventually I will spring for a Grainfather or similar. I might try the two step rising mash for experimentation sake!

 

[glutarded-chris]

What Ceramix Flex dosage are people using? I know they said the dosage varies depending on how you want the mash to finish, but I don't remember seeing any dosage recommendations to start for typical styles. Anybody have some advice?
It may be some time before I begin brewing with it, so I have some time.

 

[videojunkie1208]

.5 to 1 ml per pound. Depending upon who you ask.

 

[skleice]

What Ceramix Flex dosage are people using? I know they said the dosage varies depending on how you want the mash to finish, but I don't remember seeing any dosage recommendations to start for typical styles. Anybody have some advice?
It may be some time before I begin brewing with it, so I have some time.

My standard is 1ml/lb for both Ceramix and Ondea. On my system that delivers final gravities that are in line with barley brewing.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Thanks!

 

[Silly Yak]

I did some calculations and as the video from post #6 discusses, it is just not practical to get a 3 step mash without a system that allows heating. With infusions only, it just does not work well because the final rest is so high. I have found that below a grist ratio of about 1, the mash is too stiff. If you dial in a grist ratio of 1 on the first 125F rest, then to get to the 145F and 175F rests you have to get to a grist ratio of about 2.5. That does not leave a lot for sparging unless you are willing to boil a bunch off which I am not. Also that will overflow the mash tun that I currently have for the batch size I am using :-(

Yes agree with this as there's no way you're getting to 175F in my experience with infusion without adding a larger amount of boiling water. I would typically missing my last temperature with infusion. The alternative I started using was a decoction mash pulling out about a 1/3 of the mash and boiling to hit my next step. Even with that I could not seem to hit 175F.

Recently I got a RIMS kit and my last brew was a lager using two steps, 145F and 175F. The RIMS was awesome as I hit my last step easily and also could recirculate the entire time. The wort was crystal clear and I'm super excited to taste this batch.

 

[Silly Yak]

What Ceramix Flex dosage are people using? I know they said the dosage varies depending on how you want the mash to finish, but I don't remember seeing any dosage recommendations to start for typical styles. Anybody have some advice?
It may be some time before I begin brewing with it, so I have some time.

Here's Aaron's calculator which I just save locally: GF Enzymes Dosage Calculator

Edit - Looks like Jmath already provided that above.

 

[chaps]

Here's Aaron's calculator which I just save locally: GF Enzymes Dosage Calculator

Edit - Looks like Jmath already provided that above.

What’s strange to me is how little the suggested dose is compared to what people typically use. I wonder if the suggested dosage is for a different usage. As in they were used in production of X before GF brewers coopted them. I can’t imagine using 1ml in a 5 gal batch and getting good results. I also use approx 1ml per pound of grain of each enzyme.

 

[Silly Yak]

What’s strange to me is how little the suggested dose is compared to what people typically use. I wonder if the suggested dosage is for a different usage. As in they were used in production of X before GF brewers coopted them. I can’t imagine using 1ml in a 5 gal batch and getting good results. I also use approx 1ml per pound of grain of each enzyme.

Are you adjusting the "lbs grain" cell? For instance on the calculator I have a recipe with 14.75 lbs of grain and the suggested dose is 16ml of Ondea Pro and 27 ml of Ceremix Flex. I've been using the max dosage as my typical addition and had great results.

 

[skleice]

What’s strange to me is how little the suggested dose is compared to what people typically use. I wonder if the suggested dosage is for a different usage. As in they were used in production of X before GF brewers coopted them. I can’t imagine using 1ml in a 5 gal batch and getting good results. I also use approx 1ml per pound of grain of each enzyme.

I can shed some light on this. I just ran a little experiment for Aaron where he asked me to let my wort sit for 60 minutes before ramping up to boil. I did, and saw a large jump in attenuation. Basically, if you let ceramix work longer, it will attenuate more. I was wondering why my 1ml/lb dosage gives me 'barely beer' expected attenuation, but for for Aaron, he suggests .75ml or less/lb. The answer is that on Aarons pilot system, it takes longer to raise the temp to boil, and therefore the enzymes have more time to work. So, I think you can take that into account when using his calculator.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Are you adjusting the "lbs grain" cell? For instance on the calculator I have a recipe with 14.75 lbs of grain and the suggested dose is 16ml of Ondea Pro and 27 ml of Ceremix Flex. I've been using the max dosage as my typical addition and had great results.

The way I read that is that they are giving the recommended range which is huge. The right column is "max", not recommended. In the video, he states that Ceremix Flex is relatively sensitive to dosage and recommended not going to the max. I expected that most would maybe go somewhere in the middle to start.

Another topic: I just purchased the Glutenburg Session IPA and compared it to their regular IPA. Both tasted very similar to me but the head retention difference was dramatic. Both use Buckwheat and millet. The session IPA also uses quinoa and the head lasted forever compared to the regular IPA which has corn as the third grain. If the difference is with the quinoa I am shocked that it is so dramatic. Makes me want to put some into my next batch.

 

[skleice]

The way I read that is that they are giving the recommended range which is huge. The right column is "max", not recommended. In the video, he states that Ceremix Flex is relatively sensitive to dosage and recommended not going to the max. I expected that most would maybe go somewhere in the middle to start.

Another topic: I just purchased the Glutenburg Session IPA and compared it to their regular IPA. Both tasted very similar to me but the head retention difference was dramatic. Both use Buckwheat and millet. The session IPA also uses quinoa and the head lasted forever compared to the regular IPA which has corn as the third grain. If the difference is with the quinoa I am shocked that it is so dramatic. Makes me want to put some into my next batch.

I use quinoa in many of my brews. It has a strong aroma when raw, but I don't detect it in the beer. Buckwheat is not for me....way too earthy and intense.

Also, the new enzymes really changed head retention for me. My beers have head for days now.

 

[glutarded-chris]

When you use quinoa, do you just use unmalted grain from Whole Foods or something? Something like 2 lb in a 5 gallon batch like is normal for Buckwheat?

I now have the Ceremix Flex enzyme but don't have a convenient way to implement a rising temp mash yet. Might just have to brute force it by mashing in a kettle to heat and stir and then transfer to a separate vessel with mash bag.

 

[skleice]

When you use quinoa, do you just use unmalted grain from Whole Foods or something? Something like 2 lb in a 5 gallon batch like is normal for Buckwheat?

I now have the Ceremix Flex enzyme but don't have a convenient way to implement a rising temp mash yet. Might just have to brute force it by mashing in a kettle to heat and stir and then transfer to a separate vessel with mash bag.

I use 10-15%. Whole is just fine. I buy it in bulk (much cheaper than GFHB).

 

[chaps]

Are you adjusting the "lbs grain" cell? For instance on the calculator I have a recipe with 14.75 lbs of grain and the suggested dose is 16ml of Ondea Pro and 27 ml of Ceremix Flex. I've been using the max dosage as my typical addition and had great results.

Right, but notice how wide the margin is. For example the difference between the min/max for ondea pro is over 600%. Thats basically like them saying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we dont know how much to use... you figure it out.
Or for SEB L, which i use frequently, where they say on a 15 pound mash that you should use a max of 3.4 ml which is less than a teaspoon. Hmmmm... negative on that ghost rider.
This is why i want to do a calibration brew with data-collection to see what matters and how much/how long/which.

 

[chaps]

When you use quinoa, do you just use unmalted grain from Whole Foods or something? Something like 2 lb in a 5 gallon batch like is normal for Buckwheat?

I now have the Ceremix Flex enzyme but don't have a convenient way to implement a rising temp mash yet. Might just have to brute force it by mashing in a kettle to heat and stir and then transfer to a separate vessel with mash bag.

Go BIAB electric. It's a game changer. Brew outside when convenient, brew inside when you want to. Set specific temperatures and walk away if so desire. Etc.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Next batch will get quinoa instead of Buckwheat!
Will look into purchase of grainfather or something similar in the spring!