Late extract additions?

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BansheeRider

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I was doing some research and I ran across late additions of extract as one of the methods used in brewing. I am brewing my 3rd batch tomorrow, would I benefit from using this method? I was thinking maybe I would add 25-50% of LME at the beginning and the rest at 15 min left in the boil. I read this article that I found in the sticky thread of this forum....http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/02/20/better-beer-with-late-malt-extract-additions/

Sounds like this is the appropriate way to brew extract. What do you guys think?
 

stvo

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I was doing some research and I ran across late additions of extract as one of the methods used in brewing. I am brewing my 3rd batch tomorrow, would I benefit from using this method? I was thinking maybe I would add 25-50% of LME at the beginning and the rest at 15 min left in the boil. I read this article that I found in the sticky thread of this forum....http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/02/20/better-beer-with-late-malt-extract-additions/

Sounds like this is the appropriate way to brew extract. What do you guys think?
It's one of many ways to achieve what you want your end product to look like or replicate (clone). I've found when using extract + steepers most of my beers usually ends up being to dark due to carmalization during the boil (especially if it's a partial boil) now I actually add about 25% at the start and add the remainder at about 10-5 min also when my recipe calls for pale malt DME I will use the Pilsen light DME (same stuff I use for starters) and have had alot of success with it.
 

unionrdr

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In my partial boil AE beers,I use 1.5lbs of plain DME (usually light) in 2.5-3 gallons of water for hop additions. The remaining DME & all LME at flame out. Steep for 15 minutes to pasteurize,which happens about 162F. And since the wort is still boiling hot at flame out,stir it all in,cover,& Bob's your uncle.
In my PM ales,the fresh wort is 50% of the fermentables,so I use that for hop additions,& the 3-3.3lbs of extract goes in at flame out.
 
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BansheeRider

BansheeRider

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I wonder why instructions say to boil all extract for 60 min. I will deffinately try the late addition method tonight, I'm making a 5 gal batch of Amarillo Pale Ale.
 

unionrdr

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I wonder why instructions say to boil all extract for 60 min. I will deffinately try the late addition method tonight, I'm making a 5 gal batch of Amarillo Pale Ale.
That all in for 60 minutes was the old way before it was discovered that late additions lightened the color & improved the flavor.
 
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BansheeRider

BansheeRider

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That all in for 60 minutes was the old way before it was discovered that late additions lightened the color & improved the flavor.
Sounds like most of the techniques used in home brewing are old and out-dated.
 

unionrdr

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I wouldn't say most of them. Just those that create more problems than they solve,like all extract in at start of boil. Or change as the result of better quality ingredients,like yeast autolysis. Partial boils vs full boils,still lots of arguing over that one. AG vs AE with what's available now. Dry vs liquid yeast. I think most of it now is over perceived superiority. More gadgets & tools to improve the brewing/fermenting processes then vs now...etc.
 

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Thanks for a concise thread on the topic. The info is definitely appreciated.
 

grem135

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I brewed a Patersbier using only the steeped grain wort and about 1 lb of extract for the full 60 and added the rest at flameout. Beer came out a very nice golden color. Can't wait to try one next month.
 

unionrdr

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Yup. That's the easiest way to get that golden color. Late extract additions. I'll be using late aditions today,but on a black lager with rauchmalt.
 

grem135

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Well here's my question then. Are you adjusting the hop utilization in your recipes or considering full isomerization with a minimal gravity wort?
I read in a thread on here somewhere that you really dont need to worry about the hop utilization. I have used late additions on the last 4 batches and will continue to do so.
I let the wort sit 5 to 10 minutes before cooling it... not sure why though.
 

unionrdr

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I read in a thread on here somewhere that you really dont need to worry about the hop utilization. I have used late additions on the last 4 batches and will continue to do so.
I let the wort sit 5 to 10 minutes before cooling it... not sure why though.
I let it sit for as much as 15 minutes after late extract additions to give the boiling hot temps a chance to pasteurize them,which happens at about 162F.
 

Ogri

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So calculate ibus based on 60 min boil? Then why does beersmith adjust for late extract addition?

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that there is no exact, definitive, answer regarding differences of hop utilization between partial/full boil and various wort gravities, early or late extract additions. It's still a bit perplexing, even for the professionals and academics.

I usually just go with 60 minute hopping schedules, 60 to 20 min= bittering, 20 to 5 min= Flavour, 5 to flameout for aroma, and ballpark figures using hopville-beercalculus which seems to get reasonably good results for me.
 

GenIke

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I'm brewing an IPA as I type this. I added 25% of the DME before boil. At boil I started my 90 min hop schedule. I will add the other75% of DME at flame out. I hope I am doing this right as I've never tried late additions.

I'll report back, but so far everything looks and smells good.
 
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I went ahead and tried this method. My recipe had 6 LBS of LME and 1LB of DME. I steeped the grains for 30 min at 155 degrees. Then I added the 1LB of DME and boiled for 50 min with the normal hop schedule. The last 10 min I added the 6 LBS of LME, and added the last of the hops with about 5 min left in the boil. I also added 1/2 gallon of water to boil at 30 min mark. I ended up with almost 4 gallons of nice gold colored wort, and it smelled great. I think I will use this method for now on.

This was an Amarillo Pale Ale recipe, OG 1.051.
 

GenIke

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So I added 75% of DME at flameout, but then I had the hot break. I turned the heat back on for a few minutes until the break was over.

Is that normal? the only issue I can think of is 5 minutes longer on the hop schedule.
 

grem135

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When adding at flameout that means the flame is off and boil is done. Stir it in real good and then let it sit for 15 minutes. DME and LME has already gone through hot break in the process to make it.
It is also a very good idea to remove the heat when adding any extract then restart your timer once boil has started again (if more boil time is required)
 

GenIke

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When adding at flameout that means the flame is off and boil is done. Stir it in real good and then let it sit for 15 minutes. DME and LME has already gone through hot break in the process to make it.
It is also a very good idea to remove the heat when adding any extract then restart your timer once boil has started again (if more boil time is required)
I did stir it in real good but I got an inch of foam on top. It was six pounds of DME so maybe that had something to do with it. I wasn't sure if the foam would readily dissolve so I turned up the heat again while the water was close to boil temps.

In the future I can just let it sit?
 
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hey guess I forgot to do yesterday? add my LME at boil. Well half way through 60 min boil I realized I forgot the LME. Turned off burner , added LME, relit burner and boiled for another 30 mins......did I dodge a bullet or what.
 

unionrdr

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BK= Brew Kettle. Musta steeped a decent amount of grains to use it for hop additions. I do that too,but I mash on average 5lbs of grains,then sparge to get 3 gallons or a tad more total boil volume. They're partial boil biab beers. So my mash equaling about 50% of the total fermentables has been more than fine for all hop additions in a 1 hour boil. Extract goes in at flame out.
But since you only went half the boil time,it should come out pretty good still. Fresh grain wort works well for hop additions for me.
 

YeastHerder

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I do partial mashes and have added DME as a late addition and also at the start of the boil. In terms of taste and color, I don't see any difference and this is on final products with SRMs in the 5 range, so fairly light in color. I also found no difference in the fermentability of the resultant worts.

The small color change is coming from Maillard reactions, not really the same as carmelization.

My understanding is that DME has not been put through a hot break. It is post-mash wort (pre-boil) spray dried into powder. A second reason for believing this is that when I boil it, I get a hot break.

How much stuff is in your wort when you are hopping definitely impacts the amount of hops you should use. Beersmith will show you this quite clearly. I made a simple recipe in beersmith moving the DME from 60min to 15min to show the impact (see screenshots below).

Late extract addition yielding 36 IBUs from 50g EKG:
Screen shot 2013-02-17 at 10.16.18 AM.png

Extract added at start of the boil yielding 27 IBUs from the same 50g EKG:
Screen shot 2013-02-17 at 10.15.55 AM.png

Personally, I switched from doing late extract additions to just putting it all in at the start of the boil for convenience because I could not perceive a color or flavor change from trying it both ways. I also did not like that the late extract addition interrupted the boil making my hop times all wonky.

My experiences shared here only apply to DME. I have not done the same comparisons for LME, which I no longer use because it is so much less convenient than DME. Cheers!
 

unionrdr

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That mailard /caramelization bit really appliies to LME. It darkens way easier. Hence late additions. Plus lighter wort seems tohelp hop untilization with regard to partial boils.
 

grem135

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If I have DME it gets added before I get to boil usually and the LME added at flame out. I like being able to do the full 60 minute boil without having to remove my kettle from the heat.
 
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