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Late boil / “flavor” hop necessary?

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Spivey24

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I often brew my house IPA. This recipe is most often (per 5 gallon) 1oz Warrior pellets at 45, then 2oz of various other hop pellets at 15, 5, and whirlpool, then a 3oz dry hop. The beers generally come out really good and well balanced, but dealing with that much hops in the kettle is a pain.
I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experience in skipping the late boil hops like at my 5 and 15 mark, and compensating for bittering and whirlpool hops. And how did they compare? Ive read articles explaining why these late boil hops lose too much aroma, but also have seen so many recipes that call for them. Just looking for some first hand experience in doing it both ways. I would love to do a side by side test but doing a double boil day with 2 very small kids at home is not going to happen. :)
 

Miraculix

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I often brew my house IPA. This recipe is most often (per 5 gallon) 1oz Warrior pellets at 45, then 2oz of various other hop pellets at 15, 5, and whirlpool, then a 3oz dry hop. The beers generally come out really good and well balanced, but dealing with that much hops in the kettle is a pain.
I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experience in skipping the late boil hops like at my 5 and 15 mark, and compensating for bittering and whirlpool hops. And how did they compare? Ive read articles explaining why these late boil hops lose too much aroma, but also have seen so many recipes that call for them. Just looking for some first hand experience in doing it both ways. I would love to do a side by side test but doing a double boil day with 2 very small kids at home is not going to happen. :)
I've read often lately, that this whole 15 minutes is more for flavour and flame out and dry is more for aroma is actually not true and just a myth.

I never tried myself just to go with bittering and dry hopping, mainly because I very rarely dry hop, but I tried late additions only and remember having much stronger flavour and aroma when doing beers with dry hops. In other words, I don't know, but I would like to know as well.
 

Brooothru

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I've read often lately, that this whole 15 minutes is more for flavour and flame out and dry is more for aroma is actually not true and just a myth.
I'm not so sure that the "myth" isn't itself a myth.

I go to great lengths to get very clean yeast for harvesting and had stopped doing dry hopping altogether. I'd start with a slightly larger FWH bittering charge, then load up on late (no more than :10 mins) and whirlpool hops.

A couple of brews ago I did a Blonde Ale showcasing Cashmere along with Summit and Cascade. Turned out really nice, had some hops left over, so thought I'd do a Pale with the same hop combo. Nearing the end of fermentation I took a sip of the sample and deemed it under hopped,, so I dry hopped 1 oz each of Cashmere and Cascade.. It made a significant difference in the Pale (in a good way). Now I'm having to rethink this whole hopping scheme thingy.

The best answer I can come up with, based on similar beers with similar hopping schedules and nearly identical mash and fermentation profiles, is that ALL hopping protocols are distinct and have their place. Depending on your goal, any and all are useful and appropriate.

Brooo Brother
 

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The more hops you use the later in the process, the more flavor and aroma you generally get. Commerically, most of the brewers I know and breweries I've worked for add a tiny bit of hops in the whirlpool and make up the rest with dry-hopping with great results. Dry hopping under pressure, which is kind of hard to do at home without some specific equipment, can make a small dry hop go a really long way for big flavor.
 

Brooothru

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The more hops you use the later in the process, the more flavor and aroma you generally get. Commerically, most of the brewers I know and breweries I've worked for add a tiny bit of hops in the whirlpool and make up the rest with dry-hopping with great results. Dry hopping under pressure, which is kind of hard to do at home without some specific equipment, can make a small dry hop go a really long way for big flavor.
Dry Hopping under pressure sounds interesting. I've been brewing in a unitank for the last 18 months, so the pressure part of the equation is doable, and also might cure my fear of oxygen exposure when introducing the dry hop charge. I normally set a spunding valve when fermentation is ~75-80% complete at 1 atm. If I added DH at that point the continuing fermentation could help mitigate any O2 incursion. The fermentation could reach near completion, raise to D-rest temps for 3-5 days, then crash to clear and transfer under pressure to a serving keg for conditioning/lagering. The only thing missing is the ability to harvest "clean" yeast, but I can always just over-build the starter from each batch to continue the original strain. Don't know why I haven't considered this before since it seems so clear to me now. Thanks for the heads-up.
 

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IPA might be different but for APAs and hoppy blonde ales I only do bittering hops and dry hop. I also find yeast strain can make a difference. I like wlp029 German ale, crisp, clean and gets out of the way of the hops. I use a 30g dry hop in my blonde ales and they come through nicely.
 
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Spivey24

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I was thinking, there is a lot of talk about post fermentation oxygenation hurting hop flavor/aroma. But what about the fact that we put these hops in at whirlpool then oxygenate the hell out of the wort before pitching. That has to be hurting the hops. What about adjusting the recipe for less volume and higher OG then adding a decent volume of hop tea Maybe around day 5. I don’t really hear of many doing hop teas. I feel an instapot experiment about to happen. :)
 

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After trying various kettle filters to no avail, the past few years I've resorted to bagging all my hops because that's the only way I can prevent hop pulp from getting into the plate chiller or plugging up kettle filters prematurely. Because there's little restriction recirculation creates a decent whirlpool.

For a 5 gallon batch I use one or two 9 x 22" fine mesh "hop" bags. Each can hold up to 3-4 oz of pellet hops easily, and contain a good handful of glass marbles to weigh them down. The bags' tops are clipped to a kettle handle.

The bags get "massaged" with a (wooden) paddle every 5 minutes or so, and intermittently lifted just above the surface to drain, then returned to refill, aiding in wort permeation and extraction. I like the results. It's quite hands-on but haven't found an acceptable alternative, given the plate chiller debacle.

For NEIPAs, aside from a small bittering charge, I add whirlpool hops at 170F (for 10') and 150F (for 30'). Dry hops are added loose to the fermenter, unbagged. They usually get agitated, stirred under CO2, once or twice a day for 2-3 days usually, again for better extraction and dispersion.

For APAs and regular IPAs, some late boil hops could be included, sure.
 

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I've never done hopstands below 170F. My normal is :20 mins at 180F, but I usually overshoot on the initial chill and it settles 175-180F. Is the lower hopstand temperature to avoid any further isomerization, and do you get sufficient extraction of hop oils at those temperatures?

I'm not a big NEIPA fan but I do like the bump in aroma and flavor in whirlpool/hopstanding.

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I was thinking, there is a lot of talk about post fermentation oxygenation hurting hop flavor/aroma. But what about the fact that we put these hops in at whirlpool then oxygenate the hell out of the wort before pitching. That has to be hurting the hops. What about adjusting the recipe for less volume and higher OG then adding a decent volume of hop tea Maybe around day 5. I don’t really hear of many doing hop teas. I feel an instapot experiment about to happen. :)
post fermentation oxygenation causes oxidation, that is what kills flavor and is much more noticeable in hoppy beers, so oxygen before fermentation = good, oxygen after fermentation = bad
 

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I've never done hopstands below 170F. My normal is :20 mins at 180F, but I usually overshoot on the initial chill and it settles 175-180F. Is the lower hopstand temperature to avoid any further isomerization, and do you get sufficient extraction of hop oils at those temperatures?

I'm not a big NEIPA fan but I do like the bump in aroma and flavor in whirlpool/hopstanding.

Brooo Brother
I really like this article: The Best Way to Use Whirlpool Hops in Homebrew.

He talks about what each temperature range contributes as far as hop character. I've used these temperature ranges before, but not sure I was able to notice a decidable difference. If you can hold temperatures post-boil in your desired range for 15-20 minutes, I think you would notice some interesting hop characteristics coming out.
 

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I've never done hopstands below 170F. My normal is :20 mins at 180F, but I usually overshoot on the initial chill and it settles 175-180F. Is the lower hopstand temperature to avoid any further isomerization, and do you get sufficient extraction of hop oils at those temperatures?

I'm not a big NEIPA fan but I do like the bump in aroma and flavor in whirlpool/hopstanding.

Brooo Brother
Yes, using lower whirlpool temps to lower isomerization for the benefit of retaining more flavor and aroma. The 170F hops remain in the kettle while whirlpooling the 150F hops for 30'.

I have the feeling I get sufficient extraction at lower (170F and 150F) whirlpool temps. But it's a good point bringing this up.
How would one check this? Squeeze the bags, then drop into some bittered but otherwise unhopped wort at 170F (or 150F) for an hour or longer, and see what it yields?

IMO, for any beer that needs hop flavor and aroma, such as Pale Ales and IPAs, whirlpooling for longer times at lower temps (170F and 150F) has been beneficial over doing so at higher temps.
In those beers, Pale Ales and IPAs (not NEIPAs), I've been adding late boil hops and a flameout hop as usual, but drop rather quickly (<2-3 minutes) to a lower temp (170F) to give them an extended whirlpool (or hopstand).

Now, recent readings may want me to rethink that, more along the way you're doing it. Whirlpooling them at somewhat higher temps for longer before an extended lower temp whirlpool.

I never understood how a "flameout hop" could yield her potential in a homebrew setting, when we can chill a 5-20 gallon batch down to 150F in mere minutes, provided the chiller is sized to capacity and working as we expect.*

* I've been using a plate chiller since day one, clogging kettle filters and such slowing down the flow, my flameout hops always remained at higher temps for much longer times than I wanted. Good for extracting oils but not so for increasing IBUs, while losing flavor and aroma. I started adding flameout hops later in the chilling cycle to counteract that. That's long before I even knew of whirlpool hops and hop stands. IOW, I was basically doing hopstands before I ever heard the term. It just worked better in my system/brew method. It makes much more sense now.

Once I figured out to keep hops from clogging my kettle filter(s) by bagging the hops, things became much more predictable and repeatable. That's something one can build upon.
 
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Spivey24

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I really like this article: The Best Way to Use Whirlpool Hops in Homebrew.

He talks about what each temperature range contributes as far as hop character. I've used these temperature ranges before, but not sure I was able to notice a decidable difference. If you can hold temperatures post-boil in your desired range for 15-20 minutes, I think you would notice some interesting hop characteristics coming out.
yea, that was one of the articles I read that got me thinking. I am going to test this out this weekend and skip the flavor hops. Doing a double batch so still deciding if I will split it.
 
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Spivey24

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post fermentation oxygenation causes oxidation, that is what kills flavor and is much more noticeable in hoppy beers, so oxygen before fermentation = good, oxygen after fermentation = bad
Why would a tiny bit of oxygen hurt the hops post fermentation, but a ton of oxygen pre fermentation does nothing to them? I don’t get it.
 

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I think i will just try to do a two addition beer, one bittering and one dry hop.


This one was an interesting read, regarding that matter:
 

NobleNewt

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yea, that was one of the articles I read that got me thinking. I am going to test this out this weekend and skip the flavor hops. Doing a double batch so still deciding if I will split it.
I tried doing most of those additions in an IPA a while back.. It was overkill and I think it muddled the flavor. I’d stick with a single temperature addition like Smith recommends.
 
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Why would a tiny bit of oxygen hurt the hops post fermentation, but a ton of oxygen pre fermentation does nothing to them? I don’t get it.
You drive oxygen out during the boil, yeast need oxygen to thrive, they use up all the oxygen during fermentation, this is good. So once the yeast are all done eating, the oxygen is gone and now you want to keep it that way... think about keeping anything fresh, what happens when you leave a loaf of bread open or a bag of chips or any food, compared to say vacuum sealing it and storing it properly. You keep the oxygen out to preserve freshness. Some one else can probably explain better but that's my go at it.
 

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yea, that was one of the articles I read that got me thinking. I am going to test this out this weekend and skip the flavor hops. Doing a double batch so still deciding if I will split it.
I've tried various hop addition timings including this. IMO, skipping additions at either (20-)15 or 5 before end of boil and only adding WP hops leaves the beer tasting "hollow" (only way I have to describe it). I'm interested to hear what you find after your experiment.
 

Unicorn_Platypus

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post fermentation oxygenation causes oxidation, that is what kills flavor and is much more noticeable in hoppy beers, so oxygen before fermentation = good, oxygen after fermentation = bad
I think what he his asking is how come during the lag phase the whirlpool hops don't get oxidized? Is it just that the yeast is so good at scavenging the O2 during that time period?
 

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I think i will just try to do a two addition beer, one bittering and one dry hop.


This one was an interesting read, regarding that matter:
I do this often, it works well, and it’s much easier to clean the robobrew, especially when I use 15% AA hops for bittering haha
 

Miraculix

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I seriously see big overcomplication potential here. Somebody said that it is necessary to do multiple additions at multiple times to get "depth" or "complexion" or any other description that cannot really be pointed at in a real manner. People like it complicated so they believed and followed, confirmation bias does the rest.

Maybe it's really that simple. Bittering, dry hop, done.
 

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then adding a decent volume of hop tea Maybe around day 5. I don’t really hear of many doing hop teas. I feel an instapot experiment about to happen. :)
I think that's worth trying. Since I do terrible, old school things like secondary fermentation, it will be relatively easy for me to try "dry" hopping with a tea for half my batch when I brew later this month. I'll let you know if I like the result. This won't really be about the O.G. part.
 
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