Last minute wild cider experiment - what to do? Headspace?

[Rye1]

Hi everyone..

I have generally brewed beer fom kits and now from all grain. Where I am right now we have apple trees and I am pressing as we speak. They are nice & sweet/tangy eating apples. I expect by tomorrow to have around 12-15 litres of juice (2.5-3.5 gallons). I'd like to try my first cider 'experiment' but have limited equipment and ingredients to hand at this moment in time. I hope to get something fermenting ready for say Christmas time (so no hurry), but I have leave where I am in a week and don't come back until late December, so I'd like to set something up to come an pick up about 2 months time. I was hoping to do something I can "just leave to look after itself".. The temperature here would be only around 10-15c (50-60F) but I could leave the containers at a friend's house at a more 'nommal' 20c (68F).

I now here have a couple of spare 30L (7 gallon) plastic beer fermentation buckets with airlocks & tap holes, or some 5 litre (1 gallon) screw top water containers I could potentially drill the caps in and fit/adapt airlocks into the top of. I have no glass carboys of say 10L (2.2 gallon) which might have been ideal.

So, question, if I want to roll the dice and try to set something up to return to in 2 months (with almost no attention required thoughI do have someone who can visit 'if needed') and maybe drink and/or bottle then, what to do? I have no yeast, so it's a purely fly by night try. Do I try multiple 5L/1 gallon containers with around a 0.75% 'fill', or do I use a 30L/7 gallon beer bucket with all that headspace that would be left? (around 50% headspace).

This is an experiment, so nothing lost if it goes wrong, but I'd like to learn, make use of these apples, and maybe have some Christmas cheer to show for it!

Thanks so much for any (quick) responses..

 

[Chalkyt]

I guess you have to weigh up the issues and decide what might work for you. To help (or to confuse), these are the things I would think about...

Start off with everything cleaned and sanitised to minimise the chance of spoilage.

The 10-15C temperature is good for a reasonably slow fermentation.

You infer that you will rely on the natural yeast. This can be a bit slow getting started and you don't really know what you are going to get. As you are in London, can you get a reliable cultured yeast from a home brew store (or even by mail since you have a week up your sleeve)?

If you leave the cider unattended for about two months, you will want to avoid it spoiling over that time (you don't really want to come back to a heap of grey fuzz!). The low temperature will help as will the development of alcohol.

To avoid spoiling, the cider will need to develop a good level of alcohol reasonable quickly and also have a low pH (i.e be a bit acidic which you suggest the apples are). Slow fermentation equals slow development of alcohol, so some "insurance" protection via sulphite is worth thinking about (i.e. campden tablet or sodium metabisulphite). BUT... the sulphite won't do the natural yeast much good, so the loop goes back to possibly using a cultured yeast and perhaps some yeast nutrient like DAP.

If going down the cultured yeast path, look at something reliable like Nottingham, S04, AS2, M02 (the supplier can suggest the benefits etc of these). In reality any of them will do the job.

With a week to go, a primary ferment in an open bucket just might get going enough for you to rack it into a container under airlock just before you leave (the primary ferment should develop a fair bit of foam which will settle). Some people agitate the primary to introduce O2 which I understand can stimulate fermentation as can the addition of a nutrient like DAP.

The 5 litre continers with air-locks would be fine for a secondary fermentation (i.e. rack the primary into these) after leaving a bit of muck behind in the primary bucket. You might get three of these (minimal head space) which should then bubble away happily and maybe finish in two months.

Alternatively, just start the whole thing in the 5 litre containers under airlock and minimal headspace and hope that too much foam/krausen doesn't develop and spill out through the airlock, break the air seal and end up making a mess.

Good luck... I guess it all starts on Monday!

 

[Rye1]

I guess you have to weigh up the issues and decide what might work for you. To help (or to confuse), these are the things I would think about...

Start off with everything cleaned and sanitised to minimise the chance of spoilage.

The 10-15C temperature is good for a reasonably slow fermentation.

You infer that you will rely on the natural yeast. This can be a bit slow getting started and you don't really know what you are going to get. As you are in London, can you get a reliable cultured yeast from a home brew store (or even by mail since you have a week up your sleeve)?

If you leave the cider unattended for about two months, you will want to avoid it spoiling over that time (you don't really want to come back to a heap of grey fuzz!). The low temperature will help as will the development of alcohol.

To avoid spoiling, the cider will need to develop a good level of alcohol reasonable quickly and also have a low pH (i.e be a bit acidic which you suggest the apples are). Slow fermentation equals slow development of alcohol, so some "insurance" protection via sulphite is worth thinking about (i.e. campden tablet or sodium metabisulphite). BUT... the sulphite won't do the natural yeast much good, so the loop goes back to possibly using a cultured yeast and perhaps some yeast nutrient like DAP.

If going down the cultured yeast path, look at something reliable like Nottingham, S04, AS2, M02 (the supplier can suggest the benefits etc of these). In reality any of them will do the job.

With a week to go, a primary ferment in an open bucket just might get going enough for you to rack it into a container under airlock just before you leave (the primary ferment should develop a fair bit of foam which will settle). Some people agitate the primary to introduce O2 which I understand can stimulate fermentation as can the addition of a nutrient like DAP.

The 5 litre continers with air-locks would be fine for a secondary fermentation (i.e. rack the primary into these) after leaving a bit of muck behind in the primary bucket. You might get three of these (minimal head space) which should then bubble away happily and maybe finish in two months.

Alternatively, just start the whole thing in the 5 litre containers under airlock and minimal headspace and hope that too much foam/krausen doesn't develop and spill out through the airlock, break the air seal and end up making a mess.

Good luck... I guess it all starts on Monday!

@ Chalky

Thank you so much for the suggestions, very much what I was wondering and hoping for..

I've finally finished pressing what I have, and it's 13-14L (maybe 3.5 gallons) and I took a hydrometer reading at 1042. I't all now in a large fermenter (see pics) and in a room around 20c (68F) approx. I also have a heat belt helping it along (I'm in a cabin in Norway, so temps fluctuate). Lots of headspace as you can see.

I'm taking the advice and pushing it in a pretty open environment to get the fermentation O2 going for a few days?

So, do I risk leaving the cabin in 6 days and simply allowing the juice/cider in sucha large tub at say 10-15c (50-60F) unattended for 2 months and hope for the best (until I return) or do I adapt some 5L (1 gallon) plastic containers to lower the 'headspace'? I have no time/access to get yeast etc, though I could give the large bucket to a relative to keep in their house at a more normal 20c (68F)?

Like I said, it's an experiment, and If I can learn and maybe have some Christmas cheer in a couple of months, then great!

Photos attached..

Many thanks.

 

[Chalkyt]

My approach would be to spread the risk by having three x 5 litre batches each with minimum head space to reduce the post primary exposure to O2 and sitting at 10-15C under airlocks. I would make sure that two are properly filled and top the third up with cooled boiled water perhaps with a bit of sugar to maintain or increase the SG above your 1.042 for more alcohol protection if needed. The alternative approach is to top-up each container equally. In his book, Andrew Lea suggests that topping up by 15% has little impact on the flavour of the cider.

Having three separate batches gives you a chance to do something different with each batch when you return if you want to, or possibly have something left to play with if one of the batches goes pear-shaped in your absence.

I recently had an experience with a stalled fermentation (i.e. the SG had stalled t 1.007 which meant I had a medium rather than a dry cider). This was probably due to the apples not having enough YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) to feed the yeast to complete fermentation. Some apples can be low in this nutrient. Fermentation restarted after a small amount of DAP (20% YAN) was added.

If you find a situation like this when you return, three different batches will let you try different interventions if needed.

 

[OleBrewing]

apples are great at fermenting by themselves. like stated nutrients could be an issue. also stated remove as much head space as possible natural cider does not ferment as aggressively naturally as if you were adding a bunch of yeast to it.

in my bio pic is 140 gallons of natural cider to be bottled in the spring after winter ferment. the next year used the water tank as fermenter in floor of garage with about 160 gallons, once fermentation took off on that i was pulling insulation off to keep it cool in freezing temps. once temp settled used few rows of heat tape and insulation through the winter. stayed 65 whole time with temps 0-30 below in the garage.

i will say table apples will make bland cider and traditional cider apples would be best for base juice. where i live there are lots of varieties of crab apples some sweet and tart and others just so tart it will dry out your mouth.

now my cider days are behind me, was fun free booze and anyone with an apple tree was happy to let you pick apples. of course by the end buddy and i made a grinder and a 20 ton press. each press was like 20-30 gallons depending on the apples.

enjoy!!

 

[Rye1]

Hey, thanks so much everybody, I really appreciate the suggestions..

I'm now going to leave the juice in the large bucket with a heat belt around it (it gets cold ant night here) until the end of the week, and as suggested, I'll divide into three 5L batches, maybe dilute all a bit, or just one..

And then it's in the hands of the (cider) gods!

I'll be sure to check back in in December and update the thread..

 

[Rye1]

Hello again.. I'm back a little sooner than I'd thought.

I had a couple of further questions. It turns out that the temperature has dropped much lower and quicker than I thought, and I've been told the three 5L containers (with airlocks) are sitting in a room which is now only 5C. Before I left they had spent around 5 days in a larger bucket, and had begun to bubble the airlock nicely. I then filled two containers with undiluted, and the third I added 15% water (all 3 with 1/2 teaspoon sugar).

Will 5C temperature be completely unworkable? Or do I have someone take them to their place to keep warmer?

This leads me to a further thought. Come late December time, I was thinking of bottling - how will I know if it's too soon? I measured 1042 OG in the first pressed juice. And if fermantation is painfully slow, would bottling be wise at that stage, and should I add any carbonation sugar to each bottle?

I know it's fairly soon in the process, but the 5C temperature concerns me a bit, although if it's going to be OK, I'm happy to continue and not inconvenience someone else with baby sitting the brew!

Many thanks again for any input(s)...

 

[madscientist451]

Cider makes itself, you don't need to do anything at all.
My 2 cents for your situation: Ferment in the brew bucket, no heat belt is required, low 60's to high 50'sF is a good temperature. Look around for a used glass 3 gallon carboy or glass 1 gallon jugs. After the cider is done fermenting it will settle some of the solids out, siphon off the cider to the glass containers and add sulphite if you want to. Also, taste your cider and if the flavor is to your liking, start drinking it right away, but it may be better if you let it age 6 months or more. If you are in a rush, you can add stuff to your cider to clear it, but I just let it sit and it clears by itself. You may want to make some flavor adjustments, but if you are just starting out you may want to avoid that and instead "blend in the glass" with fruit juice, light beer, or something else to get taste you like.

 

[Rye1]

Cider makes itself, you don't need to do anything at all.
My 2 cents for your situation: Ferment in the brew bucket, no heat belt is required, low 60's to high 50'sF is a good temperature. Look around for a used glass 3 gallon carboy or glass 1 gallon jugs. After the cider is done fermenting it will settle some of the solids out, siphon off the cider to the glass containers and add sulphite if you want to. Also, taste your cider and if the flavor is to your liking, start drinking it right away, but it may be better if you let it age 6 months or more. If you are in a rush, you can add stuff to your cider to clear it, but I just let it sit and it clears by itself. You may want to make some flavor adjustments, but if you are just starting out you may want to avoid that and instead "blend in the glass" with fruit juice, light beer, or something else to get taste you like.

.. thanks for this. I think I'll leave it 'as is', and maybe experiment with a few bottling options vs whole 5L containers. Then next year I'll have similar batch of juice pressed and be able to take the 'experiment' forward..