lame belgian yeast character help

[jack_a_roe]

ive found myself getting more and more into belgians the last year so figured id take some shots at brewing some. my main issue that i cant seem to figure out is the yeast character.

in three batches, hef dunkel and stout, the yeast flavor has been lacking. its not as quite as crisp and bright as it should be, or at all really. ive tried to up fermentation temps with no luck. should i underpitch? is it possible its my water?


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[jack_a_roe]

the yeasts used were...

hef - wyeast 3068 weihenstephan
dunkel - wyeast 3638 bavarian wheat
stout - wyeast 3787 trappist high gravity


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[morticaixavier]

the yeasts used were...

hef - wyeast 3068 weihenstephan
dunkel - wyeast 3638 bavarian wheat
stout - wyeast 3787 trappist high gravity


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both the wheat yeasts like to be underpitched a bit. run warmer for more banana, cooler for more clove. with the clove, if you are doing all grain. a 20 minute rest at 113 or so helps.

I'm not familiar with the high gravity belgian strain so I can't help you there except to say that you should try pitching less and see what you get.

 

[pdxal]

the yeasts used were...

hef - wyeast 3068 weihenstephan
dunkel - wyeast 3638 bavarian wheat
stout - wyeast 3787 trappist high gravity


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Here's part of your problem. The first two yeasts are German. You can't expect "Belgian" flavor from those yeasts. The 3787 is a classic Belgian yeast from Westmalle, and will give you what you probably are expecting- phenols and esters for a spicy/fruity flavor, when pitched and fermented warmer than typical ale yeasts. it will be restrained below 68, and more and more flavorful as the fermentation temperature is higher, up to the low 80s.
How about more information? Grain bill, mash temperatures, hops, adjuncts. If you think it is your water, how about the information from your water report so we can help? Not likely the water, though.

 

[Hopinista]

This thread made me laugh more than the humor threads tonight!

"I'm not getting Belgian character from my German yeasts??" Lol :what:

 

[Hopinista]

But in all seriousness, I use 3787 as my house yeast. If I want that Belgian character to be super strong, I usually pitch at 68F and let it work its way to the high 70's to low 80's. Try that next time I bet you won't be disappointed

 

[jack_a_roe]

This thread made me laugh more than the humor threads tonight!

"I'm not getting Belgian character from my German yeasts??" Lol :what:

hahaha there i go again putting my foot in my mouth.

i don't have my recipes in front me at this time but all of them were real basic recipes for the styles, especially the hef and dunkel.

ferment up to low 80s?! i guess the temp guidelines are simply that, guidelines...anyways, thanks for the info y'all. and thanks for not completely tearing me a new one for thinking a yeast from german brewery is a belgian yeast. the og post WAS after a full brew day so ya know how that goes.

def will be trying to increase my temps even MORE as well as underpitch by throwing in a half a smack pack ish a 5 gallon batch and see where that gets me. i'll report back if and when i get some results.

 

[morticaixavier]

hahaha there i go again putting my foot in my mouth.

i don't have my recipes in front me at this time but all of them were real basic recipes for the styles, especially the hef and dunkel.

ferment up to low 80s?! i guess the temp guidelines are simply that, guidelines...anyways, thanks for the info y'all. and thanks for not completely tearing me a new one for thinking a yeast from german brewery is a belgian yeast. the og post WAS after a full brew day so ya know how that goes.

def will be trying to increase my temps even MORE as well as underpitch by throwing in a half a smack pack ish a 5 gallon batch and see where that gets me. i'll report back if and when i get some results.

depending on the gravity of the wort and freshness of the yeast a whole smack pack might already be underpitching. Check out mrmalty.com for some pitching rate guidance and then cut that by at most 30%.

I would experiment first with ferm temps to get you what you want.

 

[beergolf]

ferment up to low 80s?!

I would not recommend that, unless you want to end up calling NASA and offering them some rocket fuel. The recommendation to ferment belgians hot gets thrown around here all the time. When I first started brewing I took that advice and ended up with a ton of fusels, headache beer.

It is best to start the fermentation at the low end of the recommended range and then slowly let the temp rise to help the beer attenuate fully. After the first few days the temp can be raised, but If you start the fermentation in the 80's I will gaurantee you will not like the results.

 

[Hopinista]

Yeah, I said start at 68 and let it go to the 80's.

If you got fusels, then you did it wrong.

I brew almost exclusively Belgians, and I've never had fusels in almost 5 years.

 

[beergolf]

Yeah, I said start at 68 and let it go to the 80's.

If you got fusels, then you did it wrong.

I brew almost exclusively Belgians, and I've never had fusels in almost 5 years.

True you did, but the OP took it as ferment in the. 80's. I agree with starting lower and letting the temp rise, but not starting out hot. Starting out hot will assure fusels. Which is what a newb will take as advice when they hear " ferment in the 80's". They often take the "if a little is good then a lot more is better" When he stated that he was going to try to pitch only a half pack and ferment hot, it told me that he was trying for extremes. pitching that little yeast and starting out hot is a recipe for disaster.

Yes I did it wrong the first time. I took it as ferment hot and started out hot. I am trying to prevent the OP from making the same mistake I did when I was a new brewer.

I also brew a lot of Belgians and that yeast is my favorite yeast so I know that yeast well. I have brewed about 25 brews using that yeast so I know it well.

 

[Hopinista]

True you did, but the OP took it as ferment in the. 80's. I agree with starting lower and letting the temp rise, but not starting out hot. Starting out hot will assure fusels. Which is what a newb will take as advice when they hear " ferment in the 80's". They often take the "if a little is good then a lot more is better" When he stated that he was going to try to pitch only a half pack and ferment hot, it told me that he was trying for extremes. pitching that little yeast and starting out hot is a recipe for disaster.

Yes I did it wrong the first time. I took it as ferment hot and started out hot. I am trying to prevent the OP from making the same mistake I did when I was a new brewer.

I also brew a lot of Belgians and that yeast is my favorite yeast so I know that yeast well. I have brewed about 25 brews using that yeast so I know it well.

I just saw the post about pitching half the pack. That's something else lol

 

[Hopinista]

And yeah, every time I use a different strain, I always think "this is good, but it'd be better with 3787" I use it for everything except sours and the occasional saison

 

[Aa760]

Four words: brew like a monk.

Pick up a copy. Fascinating read both in terms of process and history.

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[beergolf]

And yeah, every time I use a different strain, I always think "this is good, but it'd be better with 3787" I use it for everything except sours and the occasional saison

Maybe , 1214 as a close second for Belgians, but 3787 is slightly better.

3724 for saisons, and yes that is the only yeast that you can start out hot and it works great. The hotter the better for this yeast.

 

[Fermented_minds]

ive found myself getting more and more into belgians the last year so figured id take some shots at brewing some. my main issue that i cant seem to figure out is the yeast character.

in three batches, hef dunkel and stout, the yeast flavor has been lacking. its not as quite as crisp and bright as it should be, or at all really. ive tried to up fermentation temps with no luck. should i underpitch? is it possible its my water?


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What kind of character are you looking for? If you're looking for something spicy and earthy with some good esters, try The Yeast Bay Northeastern Abbey.

http://www.theyeastbay.com/brewers-yeast-products/northeastern-abbey

It's a new Belgian strain that's isolated out of an American Producer of Belgian-style beers from the Northeastern US.






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[Hopinista]

Maybe , 1214 as a close second for Belgians, but 3787 is slightly better.

3724 for saisons, and yes that is the only yeast that you can start out hot and it works great. The hotter the better for this yeast.

1214 is the chimay strain right? I used it for a quad once and it came out really nice. 3724 is a crazy ridiculous beast of a strain for sure

 

[Yooper]

depending on the gravity of the wort and freshness of the yeast a whole smack pack might already be underpitching. Check out mrmalty.com for some pitching rate guidance and then cut that by at most 30%.

I would experiment first with ferm temps to get you what you want.

That's what I was going to say- using a whole smack pack is already underpitching. While I have heard that underpitching can create more esters, in my experience it creates more clove and other stressed yeast flavors- probably the opposite of what is wanted here.

It's been said already, but for a Belgian flavor, use Belgian yeast. I like WLP500, which has stone fruit flavors along with bubble gum notes and I like it fermented at about 68-72 degrees.

 

[beergolf]

1214 is the chimay strain right? I used it for a quad once and it came out really nice. 3724 is a crazy ridiculous beast of a strain for sure

yes it is the Chimay strain.

Great flavors from 3724 for saisons.

 

[jack_a_roe]

True you did, but the OP took it as ferment in the. 80's....

actually i didn't take it like that, hence why it sad ferment UP to 80s in your quote. appreciate the good looks tho, the whole reason i'm apparently having trouble is because i'm so worried about getting that rocket fuel taste from starting too high.

 

[beergolf]

actually i didn't take it like that, hence why it sad ferment UP to 80s in your quote. appreciate the good looks tho, the whole reason i'm apparently having trouble is because i'm so worried about getting that rocket fuel taste from starting too high.

Good. I was just making sure that you got the fermentation schedule down. Do you have a good way to control ferm temps? If you start low and slowly ramp it up you will not get rocket fuel and should get a very tasty brew. Just remember that the wort temp will be higher than the ambient temperature by as much as 10 degrees during the active fermentation time.

I am just a little jumpy when I hear the "Belgians like to be fermented hot" line because of my bad experience. It was probably about my fifth brew and I saw the advice to ferment Belgians hot and did just that. The room where I put the fermenter was at about 75 degrees ambient temp. When fermentation started the temp of the brew jumped up into the 80's. I cannot be sure because the strip thermometer was maxed out. The flavor was very hot and almost undrinkable. I let it sit for about a year and it smoothed out a very little but never went away.

I like Belgians and brew them often so I learned a lot from that bad experience. Learning to pitch the proper amount of healthy yeast, aerating well and controlling fermentation temps really goes a long way to producing very good brews.

Good luck and I hope you finally get the Belgian flavor that you are looking for. Each yeast has a different flavor profile so you might want to try a couple of different yeasts. 3787 is good but also look at 1214 (WLP500) It produces a very nice flavor also.

 

[solbes]

If the OP is drinking these as soon as they carb up, that might be part of the problem. Even with low gravity Belgians, giving them 2-3 months in the bottle will increase the belgian flavor IMO. Higher gravity will require more time to "peak", maybe 4-12 months. This is an important part of learning Belgians, to gain experience on how they evolve over time.

I've used 3787 4 or 5 times and have never had lack of flavor. And I've always pitched appropriately, aerated by skaking the bucket for 1-2 minutes, and fermented from 64 on up to 70 on a gradual ramp. So I seem to get these flavors without stressing the yeast.

Of course everyone will have a different opinion on how much belgian flavor they are looking for. Some want it up front and center, and loud. Some llike me want it just a little bit more in the background.

 

[sologman]

Sorry, pocket post...working on erasing.

- SoloGMan

 

[Owly055]

Our local microbrewer had a "romance" with some kind of Belgian and was using it in virtually everything for awhile..........The result was an overpowering and to me unpleasant clove sort of taste. I've had plenty of Belgian beers, and none had this character in the past. Fortunately he got over that "romance". Is this a function of temp or pitching rate, or ??? Something that really put me off Belgian yeasts as I have no idea what he did, and how to avoid it. I want to enjoy the beer, not taste the yeast byproducts as a dominant part of the character.

 

[chickypad]

i don't have my recipes in front me at this time but all of them were real basic recipes for the styles, especially the hef and dunkel.

I'd still be interested in seeing the stout recipe, that's kind of an off shoot style so I don't know what a basic recipe would be. You mention the beers aren't bright and crisp, what were your OG and FG readings? One thing about Belgians is they need to be very well attenuated or they won't taste right. Just wondering if your problem could also be a recipe issue, espeically with a stout. I would recommend trying something with a very simple grainbill like a blonde or tripel and the 3787 yeast (also my house strain) with the ferment techniques as mentioned (I actually end up around 75*). I get great commercial-like Belgian character that way, and if I underpitch it is minimally - i.e. still using a decent sized starter for yeast health.

Our local microbrewer had a "romance" with some kind of Belgian and was using it in virtually everything for awhile..........The result was an overpowering and to me unpleasant clove sort of taste. I've had plenty of Belgian beers, and none had this character in the past. Fortunately he got over that "romance". Is this a function of temp or pitching rate, or ??? Something that really put me off Belgian yeasts as I have no idea what he did, and how to avoid it. I want to enjoy the beer, not taste the yeast byproducts as a dominant part of the character.

I suspect it could be from either severely underpitching or starting too hot or both. I had the same problem beergolf mentioned when I first started brewing Belgians, took the warm fermenting advice to mean starting warm then also underpitched, and I had some horrible bandaid and heavy clove type phenols.

 

[beergolf]

If the OP is drinking these as soon as they carb up, that might be part of the problem. Even with low gravity Belgians, giving them 2-3 months in the bottle will increase the belgian flavor IMO. Higher gravity will require more time to "peak", maybe 4-12 months. This is an important part of learning Belgians, to gain experience on how they evolve over time.

Very good point. Age does wonders for belgian brews. Brewing Belgians does require a lot of patience.