Lambic Discussion Thread

[BusinessSloth]

I had my first Cantillon Kriek, 2014 vintage 750ml (have to check date) and loved it. Was very fruity, like a really juicy, jammy, ripe cherry taste, and perfectly sour for my taste. I don't like overly sour beers and this was right up my alley. Less sour than say a Rose, but i've never had a rose within a year of bottling.

Yeah I'm guessing my bottle was just a weird anomaly as someone else mentioned a perfectly delicious 2014 kriek as well, and proceeded to describe something completely opposite than I experienced. It happens.

Anyone know when 2014 St. lamvinus is coming out this year? I figure January/February. Need to get my hands on at least a bottle

 

[JBP]

What is the conventional wisdom on when Lou Pepe Gueuze hits its sweet spot age-wise in the bottle?

 

[stupac2]

What is the conventional wisdom on when Lou Pepe Gueuze hits its sweet spot age-wise in the bottle?

I haven't had the first two vintages, but based on the 2000 I had it can go at least ~11 years (uncertain because I don't know that one's bottling date).

 

[Rowingbrewer1]

What is the conventional wisdom on when Lou Pepe Gueuze hits its sweet spot age-wise in the bottle?

I had a 2001 LPG earlier this year and it was fantastic. I have an 07 that I will be holding onto for quite some time

 

[SeaWatchman]

Yeah I'm holding any LPG I get for a minimum of 5 year after bottling.

 

[dvelcich1]

It may have been mentioned, but my understanding is that LPG is only a blend of two vintages of lambic while the Classic is three. Is that right?

I've always liked the Classic much better, and that may explain it.

 

[SeaWatchman]

It may have been mentioned, but my understanding is that LPG is only a blend of two vintages of lambic while the Classic is three. Is that right?

I've always liked the Classic much better, and that may explain it.

For all intents and purposes Lou Pepe Gueuze isn't technically a gueuze. It's a blend of vieux lambics (~2yrs old) aged in wine barrels. The carbonation comes from priming sugar added at bottling instead of jeune lambic added into the blend.

 

[doobliebop1]

For all intents and purposes Lou Pepe Gueuze isn't technically a gueuze. It's a blend of vieux lambics (~2yrs old) aged in wine barrels. The carbonation comes from priming sugar added at bottling instead of jeune lambic added into the blend.

I've wondered what the point of saying they are aged in wine barrels is. Are they fresh wine barrels? I asked JVR about barrel selection, and he told me that they use wine barrels for just about everything these days

 

[tehzachatak]

I've wondered what the point of saying they are aged in wine barrels is. Are they fresh wine barrels? I asked JVR about barrel selection, and he told me that they use wine barrels for just about everything these days

My assumption has always been the LPs are fresh wine barrels, yeah, and that's what the website seems to back up.

The Lou Pepe beers deviate from these principles. The Gueuze Lou Pepe is made with two years old lambic beers with a mellow taste, often coming from barrels in which only wine has been kept before. In July, the same kind of beer is used to make the Lou Pepe Kriek and Framboise. With these beers too, the fruits are soaked in barrels coming directly from Bordeaux.

This fruity taste, combined with the wine flavour coming from the Bordeaux barrels, distinguishes these special beers from the other Cantillon products.

 

[stupac2]

I've wondered what the point of saying they are aged in wine barrels is. Are they fresh wine barrels? I asked JVR about barrel selection, and he told me that they use wine barrels for just about everything these days

It would be surprising if they used anything else, since new barrels would give more oak flavor than they want and in Europe non-wine barrels seem to be expensive. As tehzachatak said above, these seem to be the fresh ones, whereas the others are presumably the reused ones that have gone through Cantillon's crazy barrel-cleaning program.

 

[matedog]

Okay, I've been wondering this for awhile - when people use the term "wine barrel" do they mean "oak barrels that are normally used for wine but haven't been actually filled? Versus barrels that previously housed wine. The RR sours are pretty explicit, but I was further confused when the dude giving the tour at New Belgium refuted my assertion that the wine characteristics in the used barrels are imparted on the beer (of course I didn't think to bring up that bourbon barrel aging pretty clearly imparts bourbon flavor on the beer).

 

[stupac2]

Okay, I've been wondering this for awhile - when people use the term "wine barrel" do they mean "oak barrels that are normally used for wine but haven't been actually filled? Versus barrels that previously housed wine. The RR sours are pretty explicit, but I was further confused when the dude giving the tour at New Belgium refuted my assertion that the wine characteristics in the used barrels are imparted on the beer (of course I didn't think to bring up that bourbon barrel aging pretty clearly imparts bourbon flavor on the beer).

They mean spent barrels in the vast majority of cases. And the wine clearly affects the flavor of the beer, Lagunitas does a version of one of their stouts in wine barrels, the barrel is very, very obvious. Maybe with whatever mediocre sour NB is putting in barrels it doesn't come across, but that's probably just "you can't tell it's there because the flavors of wine and our mediocre sour are similar." I'm sure if you did a side-by-side with a sour in a wine barrel and one in a more neutral barrel you'll be able to tell.

EDIT: Although if he's talking about the foeders then it's entirely possible, because even with a "spent" foeder that recently housed wine and wasn't thoroughly cleaned (which maybe they all are when breweries get them, I don't know) the ratio of "barrel surface area" to liquid is going to be A LOT smaller than in a regular barrel, so the change might be so small as to be undetectable. But with normal barrels it's definitely detectable.

 

[bdogg1]

...

 

[SeaWatchman]

Yeah spent barrels that haven't contained lambic before is how I interpret the LP series. And then those barrels, after being emptied of LP variants go into regular rotation for lambic.

 

[matedog]

They mean spent barrels in the vast majority of cases. And the wine clearly affects the flavor of the beer, Lagunitas does a version of one of their stouts in wine barrels, the barrel is very, very obvious. Maybe with whatever mediocre sour NB is putting in barrels it doesn't come across, but that's probably just "you can't tell it's there because the flavors of wine and our mediocre sour are similar." I'm sure if you did a side-by-side with a sour in a wine barrel and one in a more neutral barrel you'll be able to tell.

EDIT: Although if he's talking about the foeders then it's entirely possible, because even with a "spent" foeder that recently housed wine and wasn't thoroughly cleaned (which maybe they all are when breweries get them, I don't know) the ratio of "barrel surface area" to liquid is going to be A LOT smaller than in a regular barrel, so the change might be so small as to be undetectable. But with normal barrels it's definitely detectable.

Yeah, I don't remember the context right now, but I don't think that was in relation to the foeder (though that makes sense on a volume to surface area comparison). I remembered he said the barrel aging was solely to get the wild bacteria/yeast that penetrates the barrel which seemed wrong and counter to what I had learned to that point.

 

[tehzachatak]

Yeah, I don't remember the context right now, but I don't think that was in relation to the foeder (though that makes sense on a volume to surface area comparison). I remembered he said the barrel aging was solely to get the wild bacteria/yeast that penetrates the barrel which seemed wrong and counter to what I had learned to that point.

The usage can be all over the place, though. Sometimes when people say "wine barrels" what they really mean is "barrels that previously held wine but then we cleaned the **** out of so you don't get any barrel character besides what you'd get from neutral oak." That sounds like whatever the NB guy was talking about.

NORMALLY, when I see "aged in wine barrels" I think "second-use, uncleaned barrels" and when I see "oak barrels" I think "cleaned wine or bourbon barrels." But it's not hard and fast, unfortunately.

 

[matedog]

The usage can be all over the place, though. Sometimes when people say "wine barrels" what they really mean is "barrels that previously held wine but then we cleaned the **** out of so you don't get any barrel character besides what you'd get from neutral oak." That sounds like whatever the NB guy was talking about.

NORMALLY, when I see "aged in wine barrels" I think "second-use, uncleaned barrels" and when I see "oak barrels" I think "cleaned wine or bourbon barrels." But it's not hard and fast, unfortunately.

What threw me off initially was Almanac listing their beers as having been aged in "wine barrels." I was wondering what kind of wine since I'd like to think the Cab characteristics are present in Consecration and wanted to know what to look for in the Almanac offerings. I have yet to pick up on any wine flavors in their beers, so I think it is likely used oak barrels that are cleaned thoroughly such that the wine flavors are no longer present.

In that case, I'm not sure why it's important to note that they are aged in wine barrels vs. just oak barrels.

 

[stupac2]

Yeah, I don't remember the context right now, but I don't think that was in relation to the foeder (though that makes sense on a volume to surface area comparison). I remembered he said the barrel aging was solely to get the wild bacteria/yeast that penetrates the barrel which seemed wrong and counter to what I had learned to that point.

Well it's entirely possible that for them barrel-aging is solely for that, because the effects of aging in natural wood are a lot different than aging in steel. But it's clearly not true for everyone, and if he was saying that then he's dumb.

 

[falc0n26001]

I've heard they like to use Pilsner barrels too, since they impart an especially neutral tone.

 

[jedwards]

the dude giving the tour at New Belgium refuted my assertion that the wine characteristics in the used barrels are imparted on the beer (of course I didn't think to bring up that bourbon barrel aging pretty clearly imparts bourbon flavor on the beer)

Given that NB has produced a Leopold-barrel-aged Love marketed as such, they clearly don't think it's true for fresh (whiskey) barrels. They aren't looking to get wine flavor from their foeders generally though, and given that they've been used so many times (and new ones are thoroughly cleaned prior to use) there's not really any flavor left there. I'm guessing the tour guide misspoke about the lack of flavor from their foeders (rather than speaking about wine barrels in general), given that it's almost all they do barrel-wise (i.e., if you say "wine barrels" in their wood cellar, the likely referent is their foeders).

 

[quirkzoo1]

Any tips for getting a falling apart cork out of a bottle? I have a 6 yr old Cantillon Iris I'm itching to crack open this NYE. Not sure what condition the cork is in, but best to be prepared, amirite?

As others have mentioned 6yrs should be no problem but, in the wine world a questionable cork is usually met with an ah so opener.

The idea is that because the opener doesn't actually penetrate the cork it is more likely to come out in one piece.

 

[duketheredeemer]

I was further confused when the dude giving the tour at New Belgium refuted my assertion that the wine characteristics in the used barrels are imparted on the beer...

That's hilarious. The only grape I can consistently recognize by smell alone is pinot noir, and that's because they smell like Supplication.

 

[SeaWatchman]

I've heard they like to use Pilsner barrels too, since they impart an especially neutral tone.

De Cam uses old Pilsner Urquell barrels. Boon is all over the place with their barrles. Not sure what some of the others are specifically using.

 

[Snarf1]

Yeah spent barrels that haven't contained lambic before is how I interpret the LP series. And then those barrels, after being emptied of LP variants go into regular rotation for lambic.

I think that must make a difference in how the beer ferments also.

 

[Michigan1]

As others have mentioned 6yrs should be no problem but, in the wine world a questionable cork is usually met with an ah so opener.

The idea is that because the opener doesn't actually penetrate the cork it is more likely to come out in one piece.

Do you even Durand, bro?

 

[SeaWatchman]

As others have mentioned 6yrs should be no problem but, in the wine world a questionable cork is usually met with an ah so opener.

The idea is that because the opener doesn't actually penetrate the cork it is more likely to come out in one piece.

Except the issue is that the corks in the majority of new-ish bottles are much wider than what the ah-so is designed for. I've had issues trying to pull out old-but-not-super-old Cantillon corks with the ah-so before.

 

[quirkzoo1]

Do you even Durand, bro?

No I don't.

Except the issue is that the corks in the majority of new-ish bottles are much wider than what the ah-so is designed for. I've had issues trying to pull out old-but-not-super-old Cantillon corks with the ah-so before.

Good to know. I personally don't have the will power to age any lambic beyond a couple of years so I have never even tried, hence the wine comment.

 

[dvelcich1]

NORMALLY, when I see "aged in wine barrels" I think "second-use, uncleaned barrels" and when I see "oak barrels" I think "cleaned wine or bourbon barrels." But it's not hard and fast, unfortunately.

Not sure if you were specifically referring to lambic, but it was my understanding that when someone uses "oak barrel aged," it's because they don't want to be specific. They don't want to say "bourbon barrel aged" because maybe they all weren't "bourbon" barrels, or maybe the don't want to say "pinot gris barrel aged" because they used whatever white wine barrels they could find, but they still want the flavor of whatever was in it before.

I wish "oak barrel aged" really meant new unused barrels or barrels that were cleaned so well no remnants of whatever previously was in there could be detected after aging. That'd make things a lot easier.

 

[BusinessSloth]

Cantillon's crazy barrel-cleaning program.

I'm interested in hearing more about this? Got an article or something?

 

[quirkzoo1]

I'm interested in hearing more about this? Got an article or something?

edit: also this thing.