Lambic (BOS, 3rd BOS and Two Golds)

[JCrazy84]

I'll copy what I said above regarding smaller barrels:

Consider:

Surface Area= 2(pi)r^2 + 2(pi)rh Treating them like perfect geometric cylinders, even though that isn't EXACTLY true....

225L/60ish gallon barrels: dimensions = 37.32″ (tall) x 26.97″(widest point)

= ~4300in^2

21L/5 gallon barrels= 15.5″(tall) x 13″(widest point)

= ~1500in^2.

So, basically, a 5 gallon barrel has ~1/3 of the surface area of a normal barrel even though it's contents are 1/12th the size. As such, oxygen would permeate the smaller barrel far faster, leading to faster 'aging'. But, would not always mean correct flavor generation based on the metabolism of whatever strains that you have in your batch and how they appreciate the added oxygen or are overwhelmed by it and it merely oxidizes the beer.

I'm not saying it can't work, but considering this is supposed to age a long time, I'm not sure about the prospects of small barrel aging. If anything, do it and taste it regularly to check out the flavor development.

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[Gus_13]

Going to do my first extract brew in a long time based off this recipe. Wonder if I can just boil around 30 min then chill and get a good effect? Reducing brew time would make it easier to pop out a couple in a day.

Recipe: Lambic
Brewer: Gus
Asst Brewer:
Style: Straight (Unblended) Lambic
TYPE: Extract
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.89 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.76 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 5.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 6.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 0.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4 lbs Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 1 57.1 %
3 lbs Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) Dry Extract 2 42.9 %
0.50 oz Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 115.0 min Hop 3 6.2 IBUs
5.00 oz Malto-Dextrine (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 4 -
1.0 pkg Belgian Lambic Blend (Wyeast Labs #3278) Yeast 5 -


Total Grain Weight: 7 lbs
----------------------------

I have various bottle dregs I'll pitch as well. Bruery Rueuze being one of them. Maybe a Cantillon if I decide to pop it. I'll add dregs along the way as well.

 

[Gus_13]

Last minute decided to go AG with it since I had the time. I came out with a lower OG than expected, not sure why. Came up with 1.043. Should be fine. Pitched Lambic Blend from Wyeast along with Beatification, Perennial Aria, Perennial Regalia and Love Child #4 dregs. Hope to have something nice. In 8 hrs it was fermenting hard. I have it in my fermentation freezer now and after a week will tuck it back in the closet for a month. I may rack off of the trub and into secondary after the month if that is recommended. If not I'll just leave it on there for a year before I test it. Does anyone have any suggestions/rejections to keeping it on the yeast cake for a year or so?

 

[Zippox]

I may rack off of the trub and into secondary after the month if that is recommended. If not I'll just leave it on there for a year before I test it. Does anyone have any suggestions/rejections to keeping it on the yeast cake for a year or so?

You want to rack to it a secondary. There will be PLENTY of trub even after transferring it. More than enough yeast/food for the bacteria to feed on. And from the consensus of others on the forms they too will recommend racking it once.

 

[Gus_13]

You want to rack to it a secondary. There will be PLENTY of trub even after transferring it. More than enough yeast/food for the bacteria to feed on. And from the consensus of others on the forms they too will recommend racking it once.

Sweet will do. I'll give it a month then rack it over.


Santé!

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[Zippox]

The airlock in one of my 5 gallon carboys (of a 10 gallon batch) dried up for a month. The lambic is over 1.5 years old. Think the pellicle and CO2 bed will be it's savior from oxygenation?

 

[Matteo57]

Sweet will do. I'll give it a month then rack it over.


Santé!

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Do you really need to rack it? It's not necessary is it? I was thinking of just keeping both carboys as is from the beginning..... but if there is a reason why I should rack it to a secondary... then... Let me know please!

Thanks!

 

[Zippox]

Do you really need to rack it? It's not necessary is it? I was thinking of just keeping both carboys as is from the beginning..... but if there is a reason why I should rack it to a secondary... then... Let me know please!

Thanks!

The settled yeast is mostly dead and won't add anything beneficial to the lambic. It's suggested to rack it because there is plenty of yeast left in suspension and when those eventually die then the bacteria will use the yeast's carcases as food. The smaller portion of dead yeast you get after racking is more than enough food for the bacteria. An excessive amount of trub can give bad flavors.

This is all relayed information that I've found scouring forums in regards to lambics - not speaking from personal experience.

 

[Matteo57]

The settled yeast is mostly dead and won't add anything beneficial to the lambic. It's suggested to rack it because there is plenty of yeast left in suspension and when those eventually die then the bacteria will use the yeast's carcases as food. The smaller portion of dead yeast you get after racking is more than enough food for the bacteria. An excessive amount of trub can give bad flavors.

This is all relayed information that I've found scouring forums in regards to lambics - not speaking from personal experience.

Traditional lambics are not racked, they sit in the same vessel for the duration. That's why I ask

 

[Zippox]

Traditional lambics are not racked, they sit in the same vessel for the duration. That's why I ask

You know what, now that I think more about it I remember why it was suggested from this recipe to rack..

Amanda has done this recipe a few times and the 2 times that it turned out well, she did 30 days of primary fermentation in a bucket which as we know is oxygen permeable. It was then transferred to a glass carboy for bulk aging.

She once did the recipe by having it stay within the glass carboy from the beginning and her notes say that this beer was really lacking something to be desired.

Thinking on how traditional lambics are stored in barrels and never racked, they have a level of oxygen permeability - and I think that this process is partially captured by starting with a bucket and moving to a carboy.

 

[Matteo57]

That makes sense, plastic buckets are quite oxygen permeable. I have mine in plastic carbons which are not nearly as oxygen permeable. Emailed madfermantationist and he said not to rack so I'll go with that and see. Maybe I'll rack one so I can use the yeast cake and see how the two versions differ.

 

[Hanso]

Interesting. I would have thought that the racking introduces far more oxygen than simply sitting in a plastic bucket. .. perhaps the thought is that it is too much. Basically trying to simulate sitting in a barrel for a year or two, I'd guess being in plastic for a month is not enough.

 

[Matteo57]

Buckets introduce far too much oxygen for that length of time, I get that. But if it's in a good carboy, I would think that would be totally fine and you would get just enough. I would think...

 

[Zippox]

Buckets introduce far too much oxygen for that length of time, I get that. But if it's in a good carboy, I would think that would be totally fine and you would get just enough. I would think...

If I am following your statement correctly then yes, it's true that BetterBottle carboys work well for lambics and do not introduce too much oxygen. The buckets do introduce too much oxygen for long aging.

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

I think I'm gonna try this today and siphon some of the cake from my 16 month old sour blonde (WY lambic blend +tons of different dregs: Cantillon, Tilquin, 3F, etc.) into it along with maybe some fresh Belgian yeast. It's been a while since I brewed my last sour and I'm in the mood for an easy brew day.

 

[mitchard]

Can you add additional dregs as time goes on? I was thinking about doing this recipe, and adding a few random dregs as suggested in the original post. Do I need to add all of them when I pitch the Wyeast blend, or can I add dregs down the road? I have a couple nice sours I have been saving, and I would hate to have to crack all of them on one day.

 

[joshrosborne]

Can you add additional dregs as time goes on? I was thinking about doing this recipe, and adding a few random dregs as suggested in the original post. Do I need to add all of them when I pitch the Wyeast blend, or can I add dregs down the road? I have a couple nice sours I have been saving, and I would hate to have to crack all of them on one day.

You can add them at any time.

 

[Zippox]

Picking up some EC-1118 Champagne yeast, corn sugar and some oxygen absorbing bottle caps. Going to get 10 gallons of this recipe I brewed back in March of 2013 in some bottles!

This thing better be worth it

 

[Zippox]

I plan on bottling at 2.5 volumes. You bottled at 1.5. I assume this is all a preference thing but are there any arguments for/against either volume?

 

[FatsSchindee]

If I am following your statement correctly then yes, it's true that BetterBottle carboys work well for lambics and do not introduce too much oxygen. The buckets do introduce too much oxygen for long aging.

So what's the general consensus then for the best way to ferment a lambic aged in a better bottle:
A) pitch first with sacc yeast only (WLP001) in a plastic bucket, then rack off of the trub into a BB and pitch bugs (WLP655 - Belgian sour mix), and age in the BB for a year or so
B) pitch first with 001 into the BB, then just add the 655 after primary fermentation dies down and age (no racking, leave the primary trub)
C) pitch both the 001 and 655 into the Bucket at the same time, then rack into BB after primary fermentation slows down
D) pitch both the 001 and 655 into the BB, no racking
E) pitch only the 655 into the bucket for primary, then rack off trub to BB for extended aging
F) pitch only the 655 into the BB, no 001 for primary before, no racking
G) other? (I only have plastic bucket and BB carboys, so barrels, stainless, or glass carboys are not an option, though I guess I could easily get a glass carboy if would make that much difference!)

I was leaning toward A - brewing enough to end up with 5.25-5.5 gal into the 6.5 gal bucket with 001 (and kept around 68F in ferm chamber), then racking about 5 off the trub into a 5 gal BB carboy to minimize headspace and pitching the 655 (and putting it into closet at around 75F for the year - to free up space in the ferm chamber for other, quicker beers)...

Thanks for any advice - there's a lot of different info out there!

 

[Zippox]

I believe you will want to do "E) pitch only the 655 into the bucket for primary, then rack off trub to BB for extended aging". That's at least what I did and what this recipe does and many others have done.

Edit: Many have reported that doing "A)" in your example will have a less sour product than you may be hoping for.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Thanks for the reply, Zippox.
With only the 655, does it still have a strong initial fermentation (that blend does include sacc, as well as brett, lacto and pedio), with a big krausen that eventually falls back in? In other words, is there a good defined point when you rack, or just wait a month or so, or until you see an appreciable amount of trub form? Thanks...

 

[Zippox]

Thanks for the reply, Zippox.
With only the 655, does it still have a strong initial fermentation (that blend does include sacc, as well as brett, lacto and pedio), with a big krausen that eventually falls back in? In other words, is there a good defined point when you rack, or just wait a month or so, or until you see an appreciable amount of trub form? Thanks...

It had a decent krausen and I waited a month (because that's what this recipe says if I remember correctly). I can't see why you would want to rack it at day 14 vs. day 30. And if anything you could argue it's better to rack at day 30 because the original poster make a comment that 1 month in the bucket seems to contribute good character to the beer that she didn't get when she started fermentation in a glass carboy. So it seems 30 days in a plastic bucket would be the best option.

Keep in mind though that I used Wyeast 3278 "Belgian Lambic Blend" with the dregs from one bottle of Cuvee Rene, and you are referring to 655. So technically they are different, but either way I don't believe it should change anything I said in the first paragraph.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Thanks for the response! A month sounds like a plan, then. And maybe I'll have to (twist my arm!) buy a good sour or two from which to add the dregs...
Cheers!

 

[Yourrealdad]

I am going to brew up 10G of this on Friday (my first 10G batch). A few questions that I hope I didn't miss or forgot about.

Are people aerating? I know the bugs don't really want or need it, but for the regular yeast to start strong are people giving it O2?

Second what is the SRM on a full boil? Is it darker because of the extract? Any reason why I can't hold off half of the extract until last 15 minutes? We aren't striving for hop utilization for IBU's so do we lose out on the hop oils antimicrobial effect if we change the gravity of the boil?

Thanks for sharing and look forward to this.

 

[Yourrealdad]

Anyone?

 

[TriggerFingers]

I think I actually did a 30 minute boil for the reason of utilization. I am going to be bottling mine very soon. Its at 13 months right now. Will keep everyone posted.

 

[MichaelsBrewing]

I am going to brew up 10G of this on Friday (my first 10G batch). A few questions that I hope I didn't miss or forgot about.



Are people aerating? I know the bugs don't really want or need it, but for the regular yeast to start strong are people giving it O2?



Second what is the SRM on a full boil? Is it darker because of the extract? Any reason why I can't hold off half of the extract until last 15 minutes? We aren't striving for hop utilization for IBU's so do we lose out on the hop oils antimicrobial effect if we change the gravity of the boil?



Thanks for sharing and look forward to this.

Hi.

I hope I'm not too late. As far as aeration, do the same procedure as you always have as it'll be good for the "clean yeast" that will get you going. When the bugs are introduced they'll munch on what the typical yeast does not or cannot.

As far as SRM, I wouldn't worry about about that much. Are you going to introduce fruit? If so, that'll effect the color too. Extracts are always darker but I've had a straw colored finished sour with the OP recipe. It's a good one btw. Cheers!

 

[MichaelsBrewing]

(Delete)

 

[Yourrealdad]

So I didn't get a response in time, thanks for the reply Michael though.

I did not aerate and boiled for the full time. Directly pitched a Wyeast 3278 activator in each carboy. Yeast was slow to take off and did not do much for Krausen, most of it has already fallen back in to the beer after three days.

Is this normal for the 3278?