Lambic (BOS, 3rd BOS and Two Golds)

[Brewing_on_the_Internet]

Congratulations on the medals.

 

[MrMista]

This sounds pretty great. I want to give it a shot. How much bottle dregs would I need? At the time of initial fermentation would dregs from say 2 beers be enough? How many bottles should I add when I transfer over to my 5 gal carboy after a month or so?

Thanks a lot!


Also, I suppose I should dedicate a bucket to sour brewing as I don't want cross contamination. Have any of you used the same equipment and seen issues?

 

[Zippox]

This sounds pretty great. I want to give it a shot. How much bottle dregs would I need? At the time of initial fermentation would dregs from say 2 beers be enough? How many bottles should I add when I transfer over to my 5 gal carboy after a month or so?

Thanks a lot!


Also, I suppose I should dedicate a bucket to sour brewing as I don't want cross contamination. Have any of you used the same equipment and seen issues?

2 or 3 beers would be the right amount. For sours you want to underpitch so don't make a yeast starter. You get better flavors for sours when the yeast works hard to get going.

I personally did one wyeast lambic smack-pack with the dregs of Lindeman's Cuvee Rene.

When you transfer, it isn't crucial to add more dregs. I would say only add more dregs if it is ones from a different sour beer. It would add to the complexity.

If you are using a plastic bucket then yes you will not want to make a normal beer in that ever again. Buckets are like 10 bucks so don't risk using it for anything but sours.

 

[Matteo57]

Will give this a shot sometime! Sounds delicious!

 

[zachssoojdm]

Jeeze, just went out and bought the materials for this one... haha

 

[Brewing_on_the_Internet]

I made a six gallon batch yesterday. Exactly the same as the last 10 gallon batch I made but with Bug country.
Pitched 1/5 of the vial and fermentation was very active by evening. Used the rest to make starters.

 

[stompbox]

1. Has anyone done this All Grain? Is AG not recommended for Lambics?

2. Is 10 gallons the starting volume or the ending volume of boil?

3. Never did a sour before, how do you rack from the secondary and not transfer the mess on top?

 

[Zippox]

1. Has anyone done this All Grain? Is AG not recommended for Lambics?

2. Is 10 gallons the starting volume or the ending volume of boil?

3. Never did a sour before, how do you rack from the secondary and not transfer the mess on top?

1. There are all grain Lambic recipes in the recipes section on the site. This one happens to be extract.

2. For extract recipes if you can make it a full boil then that's good, but it's just fine to boil as much as you can then top up to 10 gallons when you put it into your buckets/carbons. I for example boiled 3 gallons then topped up to 5 gallons in the bucket. I did this twice to get 10 gallons in the end.

3. If your Lambic does end up getting a good layer on the top, all you need to do is poke your racking cane through the layer and rack from underneath it.

 

[Zippox]

In reply to stopbox just two posts ago. Here is someone who has done what they believe to be the closest all-grain alternative.

Yeah, geez guys. Drunk Monk is a HUGE competition, I scored a 40 on an American Wheat this year and didn't even place! Over 850 entries in the competiton. I'd say the OP's beer is probably pretty darn tasty based on the consistency of her awards (even if she is a cards fan; go cubs!).

On a side note, I brewed up something inspired by the OP's recipe yesterday. Did all-grain, 30% Wheat, 70% 2-Row (would have used pilsner but won a sack of 2-row at a competition 2 weeks ago and it was pre-milled so want to use it up quick). Put 2lbs of maltodextrin in the boil for the bugs to chew on. I pitched ECY01 Bug Farm. I made 15 gallons. I also did a mini-mash on the side with flaked maize, munich, special b, aromatic, flaked wheat, and a little acidulated and blended with 5 gallons of the lambic base to get a Flanders Red. Pitched ECY02 Flemish Ale in that one. Flanders is on the left, lambics are on the right. These were my gravity samples I pulled before I closed up my buckets.

View attachment 112923

 

[TriggerFingers]

Just brewed this today--my first ever sour in nearly 40 batches. Only exceptions are I used 1/2oz 2 year old EKG pellets (10 IBU's) and pitched a vial of ECY01 Bugfarm. O.G. spot on at 1.044. Going to do 1 month in a better bottle, then another 11+ months in glass. Thanks again for such a great recipe! I have a vial of ECY20 that I may use for a similar beer once I rack this one...

Now? The waiting game...

 

[t-ross]

I brewed a batch of this about 14 months ago. I used the Wyeast Lambic blend and have not added any bottle dregs.

I'm about ready to rack onto a couple pounds of sour cherries. My question is about the yeast cake in the primary.... Is there anything useful or interesting that I can do with it? Should I save some of it to sour up future beers?

My next sour beer (using same primary bucket) will probably be a flanders red/brown using the Roselare blend. I haven't worked up the recipe yet.

 

[Rivenin]

if you have the room, i'd brew another sour and toss it onto cake, no reason not to use it! if you have the room of course. if not, i'd get a mason jar and fill it up and use it as soon as you can.

 

[TriggerFingers]

Now the question I have is, should I rack to glass after a month or just keep it in the better bottle for a year?

 

[stompbox]

I have a 16.5 gallon plastic container that LME comes in, I am planning on leaving a batch in that for the full duration.... My thoughts are that wooden barrels breathe..... Why should you use glass over plastic?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Zippox]

I have a 16.5 gallon plastic container that LME comes in, I am planning on leaving a batch in that for the full duration.... My thoughts are that wooden barrels breathe..... Why should you use glass over plastic?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

There is lots of talk of this over the boards but a quick summary of what I have read. Buckets are not good for long aging as there is too much oxygen to pass into the beer.

Better bottles work just fine for long fermentation - lots of people use these for 1.5 year fermentations with no problem. Of course glass is great as it doesn't allow any oxygen in.

AmandaK recommends from her experience with this recipe to start in an oxygen permeable container (bucket, vittles vault, etc). Then after a month or month and a half transfer to glass (or better bottle). She says in her first post that giving it a month in a bucket then transferring gave more impressive results.

 

[stompbox]

There is lots of talk of this over the boards but a quick summary of what I have read. Buckets are not good for long aging as there is too much oxygen to pass into the beer.

Better bottles work just fine for long fermentation - lots of people use these for 1.5 year fermentations with no problem. Of course glass is great as it doesn't allow any oxygen in.

AmandaK recommends from her experience with this recipe to start in an oxygen permeable container (bucket, vittles vault, etc). Then after a month or month and a half transfer to glass (or better bottle). She says in her first post that giving it a month in a bucket then transferring gave more impressive results.

Lambics are traditionally made in oak barrels right? Oak is certainly permeable.

The LME containers are extra thick to hold 16.5 gallons of extract, that is a lot of weight compared to a BB.

That is my thinking anyway.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Zippox]

I have read many posts about sours not turning out or tasting like vomit from too much o2 when just using a bucket for long aging. So most threads on this form encourage aging in glass vs the bucket. I'm not sure why sours succeed in oak barrels when I would also think they would be susceptible to the same o2 problem. Maybe someone can chime in on that part.

 

[JCrazy84]

I have read many posts about sours not turning out or tasting like vomit from too much o2 when just using a bucket for long aging. So most threads on this form encourage aging in glass vs the bucket. I'm not sure why sours succeed in oak barrels when I would also think they would be susceptible to the same o2 problem. Maybe someone can chime in on that part.

Oak does have permeability, but it is more of a dependent on surface area.

Consider:

Surface Area= 2(pi)r^2 + 2(pi)rh Treating them like perfect geometric cylinders, even though that isn't EXACTLY true....

225L/60ish gallon barrels: dimensions = 37.32″ (tall) x 26.97″(widest point)

= ~4300in^2

21L/5 gallon barrels= 15.5″(tall) x 13″(widest point)

= ~1500in^2.

So, basically, a 5 gallon barrel has ~1/3 of the surface area of a normal barrel even though it's contents are 1/12th the size. As such, oxygen would permeate the smaller barrel far faster, leading to faster 'aging'. But, would not always mean correct flavor generation based on the metabolism of whatever strains that you have in your batch and how they appreciate the added oxygen or are overwhelmed by it and it merely oxidizes the beer.

Here is the thing, Will and LME container work? Well, it is food grade plastic, but, it is still plastic, never the less. I don't know enough about actual oxygen permeability of HDPE (which I assume is the LME container) as opposed to that of a wooden barrel (with a bung), glass (with an airlock), better bottle (with an airlock), insert your fermenting vessel here, etc. to make a fully informed decision to say how it would turn out. That's the great thing about homebrew though, try it, it works, you're a genius, try it, you fail, you wasted X gallons of good beer. But in an over-oxidized sours case, I'd just turn over to some acetobacter for some malt vinegar ala Johnathan Sawyer. ( http://tavernvinegar.com/ )

 

[mmonacel]

I have read many posts about sours not turning out or tasting like vomit from too much o2 when just using a bucket for long aging. So most threads on this form encourage aging in glass vs the bucket. I'm not sure why sours succeed in oak barrels when I would also think they would be susceptible to the same o2 problem. Maybe someone can chime in on that part.

I think we need to separate out O2 flavor issues (acetobacter) with other flavor issues (of which there are a lot!). As far as I know low to medium O2 permeability is just going to favor growth of acetobacter which will give a vinegary sourness. It won't make your beer taste like vomit (there are other bugs that do that... ).

In my experience I typically use buckets for the duration and the amount of aceto I get from it is actually to my liking. I prefer a pretty tart beer and don't find buckets to create an overwhelming issue. You can always taste as you go and each batch of bugs will react differently, but I highly recommend (for my tastes) to start out or ride the entire time in buckets.

I've gone 1.5 years in buckets for a few batches so far with very good results.

 

[stompbox]

Thw main reason i am using a lme barrel is because i plan on throwing it away (actually recycling it) after use so i have no worries about cross contamination. And I can get them for free.

Using an LME barrel I will not need to transfer at all because it is so large that I can do fruit additions all in that vessel.

I am going to do this. We'll see what happens. Also if I am really concerned about O2 I suppose I could always saran wrap the container for more protection?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[TriggerFingers]

I have my dad's old glass carboys when he made wine in the 1970's...Since its my first sour, I will rack....lets see what happens!

 

[urbanmyth]

Thw main reason i am using a lme barrel is because i plan on throwing it away (actually recycling it) after use so i have no worries about cross contamination. And I can get them for free.

Using an LME barrel I will not need to transfer at all because it is so large that I can do fruit additions all in that vessel.

I am going to do this. We'll see what happens. Also if I am really concerned about O2 I suppose I could always saran wrap the container for more protection?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

Dude, it's been done. And it sucks. Just listen to the rest of us who actually have experience with sours and don't bulk age in a bucket. It WILL turn out poorly. It WILL end up vinegary or vomit-y. We aren't saying these things or showing you the math and theory just to say them. If you ask for an opinion and then repeatedly refute the evidence, you might as well have not asked in the first place.

 

[Rivenin]

on the left about 5.5 months in!

looks like the bugs were doing some figure skating around the top

 

[TriggerFingers]

After 1 month, transferred to glass. Its pretty sour, but the initial funky brett quality of the Bugfarm isn't there anymore. The dominant aroma is subtle black olive brine.

The gravity now is 1.013--I will check it again in 6 months to see how much its dropped.

 

[brewbush]

Got a question
I made this recipe but transcribed it incorrectly so I accidentally for a 5 gallon batch used 8oz maltodextrin and 4oz aged hops.

What can I expect?

 

[LakesideBrewing]

According to my brewing notes, I have not done an 'extract batch' since 1997. This recipe/thread has inspired me to stop being so bias against extract brewing. And it has also been a terribly cold winter up here, so a shorter brew day might be nice!

-Mike

 

[rhoadsrage]

Got a question
I made this recipe but transcribed it incorrectly so I accidentally for a 5 gallon batch used 8oz maltodextrin and 4oz aged hops.

What can I expect?

Short answer probably not much. Maltodextrin will give you more mouthfeel/creamy texture if using just brewer's yeast. Brewer's yeast can't eat those long chains of sugar but other critters in a lambic slurry can. So you might get more character from the other critters or they might just work a little faster but I wouldn't assume much.

I have read discussions that go back and forth on aged hops vs fresh hops in lambics, especially those aged for long periods of time. You won't notice a flavor difference from less aged hops but it won't have the preservative power

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/04/brewing-lambic-mythbusters-style.html

Read #3 for more info.

 

[Zippox]

Do you still recommend a carbonation of 1.5 volumes?

If so, DME or corn sugar?

And which champagne yeast would you recommend to rehydrate for bottling?

 

[Kosslow]

I wanted to know what all of you thought of making a highly carbonated lambic and entering that into competitions as a gueze? Or just making a highly carbonated lambic for general enjoyment? I am very uneducated and inexperienced when it comes to lambics but the thought of a completely still sour beer is somewhat unappetizing.

I know there's gonna be your traditionalists out there that will bash this idea, but I was just wondering what y'all thought of the idea. Thanks!

 

[interoma]

Hi Guys! I was planning on brewing my first lambic and have a couple of questions!

-Does anyone have experience on using oak barrels?

- I know that lambics in belgium are fermented and aged in oak barrels. I actually have a new 5 gallon oak barrel at home and was thinking on using it. Do you think it would be fine or should I use a glass carboy?