Lallemand Abbaye - Terrible results time and time again - talk to me

[VTMongoose]

All right people,

I'm trying my hand at making a Chimay White clone. I've done two mini (two gallon) batches so far. First recipe was more or less CSI's recipe verbatim with some hop substitutions.

https://share.brewfather.app/OwmZW2BAwa6UBZ

The fermentation character on this batch was not undrinkable but certainly awful. Loads of isoamyl acetate, moderate fusel alcohols, and absolutely nothing else. No spicy phenolics. It also just generally lacked bitterness. Down the drain it went. This batch was pitched at 68 and allowed to free rise like I've done with WLP500/WY1218 loads of times before, but gave me very different results. @dmtaylor claims it's the same as these two strains, but I am not so sure.

For the second go, I ditched Chimay's ridiculous water profile with loads of carbonates and used my standard water profile, added more sugar to try to dry it out more, added more hops, and chilled to 64°F, allowed fermentation to start, then I finally let it free rise.

https://share.brewfather.app/uAXgV7kZ3YL4h9

I tried this new version last night. I was annoyed to find it had either stalled at 1.020 or something just went very wrong during mashing (I checked my temps multiple times, dunno). It tastes "fine", far cleaner than the first example, but the fermentation character can again be described as basically light levels of isoamyl acetate (banana) and literally nothing else. There's so little fermentation character on the beer, it's not even readily identifiable as having been made with a Belgian yeast or being a Belgian style.

I'll probably try to save this batch. I have a cake of Duvel (a combo of WLP570 and WB-06 I had sitting around) I'll probably toss it on top of with some sugar and dry hops and just let it rip down to 1.004 or wherever it wants to end up.

The thing I am starting to think, is that this yeast, in its current form, whatever they are currently selling, just plain sucks. I made a series of Dubbels recently, a few made with BE-256, and two with Lallemand Abbaye, and the versions made with BE-256 from Fermentis are so, so much better.

In general manipulating Belgian yeasts is something I've always been good at, and have historically produced most of my best and winningest beers. However maybe my luck has run out and my 10th read through BLAM is not going to help me get better at brewing this beer - so tell me how you've used this yeast and whether there is something obvious I am missing, because Chimay White is very different than other Tripels I have attempted to clone in the past.

 

[dmtaylor]

You might be overpitching? I would use 1/2 pack in 5 gallons. You are using 1/2 pack in 2 gallons. Try playing with pitch rate, and keep temperature towards mid 60s F if you can.

I have no doubt that Abbaye is genetically very similar to the liquid yeasts but cannot be exactly the same because something does change when a yeast is dried which can make it a little different. The dried yeast manufacturers have to try to pick a colony that will dry properly while maintaining attributes of the original strain, but it's probably slightly different. Maybe you just don't like the slightly different dried version as much.

 

[VTMongoose]

You might be overpitching? I would use 1/2 pack in 5 gallons. You are using 1/2 pack in 2 gallons. Try playing with pitch rate, and keep temperature towards mid 60s F if you can.

I have no doubt that Abbaye is genetically very similar to the liquid yeasts but cannot be exactly the same because something does change when a yeast is dried which can make it a little different. The dried yeast manufacturers have to try to pick a colony that will dry properly while maintaining attributes of the original strain, but it's probably slightly different. Maybe you just don't like the slightly different dried version as much.

Appreciate the reply. The main thing that shocked me with version 1 was what I would consider overproduction of isoamyl acetate. I feel like I struggled for years to get W-68 to produce even close to that much in my Hefeweizens and even with Abbaye at that pitch rate, that batch was a true banana bomb. Still, maybe the lack of phenolics is due to overpitching. That is the main thing lacking in both beers, it's like they were fermented with a POF- yeast, or the Omega Bananza POF-KO version of W-68.

I didn't know about that consideration in strain selection when drying yeasts. I just assumed any yeast could be dried, but shows you how little I know. I guess I have more reading to do.

I'm mainly looking for replies from other brewers who have gotten good results with this yeast, and what their recipe and process was like. Part of me thinks Lallemand wouldn't sell it, if it wasn't at least decent for its intended purpose.

 

[sibelman]

All I can say is that the one time I used this yeast, I did not have over-strong banana or lack of other yeast character. I pitched at 68°F. Not a tripel, but an adaptation of a Duvel clone recipe from Clone Brews:

• 10.8 lbs Dingeman’s Belgian Pilsner malt
• 4 oz Belgian aromatic malt
• 2 oz German light crystal (Weyermann Cara-Helles) 10L malt
• 1.5 oz Styrian Goldings 3%; .5 oz. & 9% Centennial pellets - 60 min.
• .5 oz Styrian Goldings 3% - 15 min.
• .5 oz Saaz 2.8% @ flameout

A year later, this 6.2%ABV is still drinking well, though the "Belgian yeast character" has softened gradually.

You're way more experienced with Belgians, @VTMongoose, so this data point may not help you much. I've had a good abbey ale result with Imperial Triple Double, and I'm looking forward to tasting the dubbel I recently brewed with that.

 

[keystonehb]

You said you let it free rise, how high did it go? The more stressed a yeast is the more phenols (or even fussels) it can put out. Stress is caused by fermenting too hot or cold (hot usually gives off more phelols, esters, fussels while cold usually has more of a stalling issue), fluctuating temperatures, or under pitching yeast. Based off of the spec sheet of the yeast, if you are aiming fr the most neutral you can get with it I would pitch 70ish and ferment 68ish.

The last time I used it I used 2 packs in a 5 gal for a 9.2% Tripel, I pitched warm (high 70's) and let it do its thing. I got banana and clove out of it like I wanted, tasted great, and did not notice fussels

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Interesting threads about Abbaye from a while back...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/danstar-abbaye.629611/#post-8019167

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lallemand-abbaye.521992/

 

[VTMongoose]

You said you let it free rise, how high did it go?

That information is in the batch links I posted in the OP. Version 1 hit 77°F peak, version 2 hit 73°F peak. Normally I like to see low 80's in my Belgians, but these are small batches and it's hard to get them that high without supplemental heat.

If you got bananas and cloves, well, maybe that just confirms this is a totally inappropriate yeast for what I am looking for. Chimay White isn't a hefeweizen/weizenbock. It's pear, apricot, citrus, that kind of thing, with a little caramel, and fairly bitter some years. I've drank cases of the stuff.

Reading the threads duncan posted makes me suspect even more that perhaps this yeast is now different from what they used to sell. I used this yeast a long time ago and it was far more "Belgianey" than what I am getting now.

 

[shoengine]

That information is in the batch links I posted in the OP. Version 1 hit 77°F peak, version 2 hit 73°F peak. Normally I like to see low 80's in my Belgians, but these are small batches and it's hard to get them that high without supplemental heat.

If you got bananas and cloves, well, maybe that just confirms this is a totally inappropriate yeast for what I am looking for. Chimay White isn't a hefeweizen/weizenbock. It's pear, apricot, citrus, that kind of thing, with a little caramel, and fairly bitter some years. I've drank cases of the stuff.

Reading the threads duncan posted makes me suspect even more that perhaps this yeast is now different from what they used to sell. I used this yeast a long time ago and it was far more "Belgianey" than what I am getting now.

I'm not surprised by your results. 77° F is peak suggested.
Abbaye also apparently expresses banana quite significantly.

I just brewed a trippel on Wednesday and pitched Abbaye for the first time. I am not a banana fan but decided to give it a go at 71° and see what happens. I'm bottle conditioning so if I hate it I'll just let it sit longer.

This one is no slouch by the way. At 71° it went high krausen on day two and I barely had time to receive my CSI Golden before i
I hit the lag stage.

I'll let it know how it turns out, but it probably won't be for a month or so. FYI, got a bit of green apple on the nose when opening the fermenter to dump the candi syrup in, but no banana or clove.

 

[An Ankoù]

I've just been looking at Chimay's website. To try to discover whether the priming yeast is the original yeast or a bottling yeast. (with a view to harvesting the yeast from bottles of Chimay). It's not clear, but whatever yeast they use for primary fermentation works beyween 18 and 32C. That's 90 degrees F! Whether Lal Abbey will tolerate that, I have no idea.

See manufacturing process at the bottom of the page.


https://chimay.com/en/taste/our-beers/

 

[An Ankoù]

I know I'd seen a promising recipe somewhere.
This one uses WLP500 yeast.
I think this might be my starting point if I were going to make this beer.
Its delicious beer, but I drink it rarely as it's too strong to drink many pints and it's less than €2 for 33cl in the local supermarket. (and I prefer Westmalle triple)
https://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

 

[VTMongoose]

I know I'd seen a promising recipe somewhere.
This one uses WLP500 yeast.
I think this might be my starting point if I were going to make this beer.
Its delicious beer, but I drink it rarely as it's too strong to drink many pints and it's less than €2 for 33cl in the local supermarket. (and I prefer Westmalle triple)
https://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

I don't know if you read my original post, but I literally said the first version of this that I brewed was this recipe, almost verbatim, scaled down, but using Abbaye instead of WLP500 which is supposedly the same yeast.

I'm not surprised by your results. 77° F is peak suggested.
Abbaye also apparently expresses banana quite significantly.

View attachment 874814

I just brewed a trippel on Wednesday and pitched Abbaye for the first time. I am not a banana fan but decided to give it a go at 71° and see what happens. I'm bottle conditioning so if I hate it I'll just let it sit longer.

This one is no slouch by the way. At 71° it went high krausen on day two and I barely had time to receive my CSI Golden before i
I hit the lag stage.

I'll let it know how it turns out, but it probably won't be for a month or so. FYI, got a bit of green apple on the nose when opening the fermenter to dump the candi syrup in, but no banana or clove.

Admittedly I did drive to Raleigh recently and purchase some Chimay White in cans and it does have noticeable banana and the fermentation profile does seem to roughly match what I am getting from Abbaye, so they are likely equivalent. It's just odd because I don't remember this in all my years of drinking this beer until recently, but perhaps the examples I was purchasing in my local bottle shops were excessively aged, and isoamyl acetate can age/oxidize out pretty quickly under poor storage conditions. One thing is certain; the CSI recipe is way, way short on hops. The real Chimay White is so much more bitter and hoppy than either my original CSI clone or the second version where I tried to up the IBU's.

At any rate I have not had time to re-brew this beer but I think I am going to try BE-256 and otherwise just again up my hopping rates slightly and just see how differently it presents than Abbaye and if I can get closer to Chimay's beer. I still like what I got in Raleigh quite a lot even if it isn't exactly what I am chasing.

 

[Jeroen79]

I've just been looking at Chimay's website. To try to discover whether the priming yeast is the original yeast or a bottling yeast. (with a view to harvesting the yeast from bottles of Chimay). It's not clear, but whatever yeast they use for primary fermentation works beyween 18 and 32C. That's 90 degrees F! Whether Lal Abbey will tolerate that, I have no idea.

It is definitely Bottling yeast and not the primary strain, i tested this by harvesting and testing on wort, it doesn't go far and only ferments simple sugars.

 

[An Ankoù]

It is definitely Bottling yeast and not the primary strain, i tested this by harvesting and testing on wort, it doesn't go far and only ferments simple sugars.

I thought that would be the case.

 

[An Ankoù]

I don't know if you read my original post, but I literally said the first version of this that I brewed was this recipe, almost verbatim, scaled down, but using Abbaye instead of WLP500 which is supposedly the same yeast.

Yep. Read all that.
As for it being the same, I think you've answered that question. They might have had the same origin.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As for it being the same, I think you've answered that question. They might have had the same origin.

Abbaye, WLP500 Monastery and 1214 Belgian Abbey are all S. cerevisiae x kudriavzevii hybrids which is sufficiently weird to make it a safe bet that they all share a common origin, whether that be Chimay or somewhere else.

 

[Kickass]

I recently used Abbaye in a Belgian style blonde ale. I was really impressed. I wanted balanced ester and phenol that was noticeable but not overpowering. Abbaye was exactly that. I’d have to check my notes but I think I started it around 67 degrees, raised it two degrees a day to 75 and held it there until it finished. I’ll definitely be using it again.

 

[Tony B]

I have brewed several batches of a Belgian single with this yeast and really like it.

 

[ncbrewer]

I've brewed some Belgian Pale Ales with both BE-256 and Lallemand Abbaye. I like both, but prefer Abbaye. I don't under-pitch.

 

[Sipina]

Consider using Lallemand Farmhouse at the low temp. range. Last time I used it like that and it gave me very nice monastery belgiany style aroma and flavor profile. Keep in mind the nutrition needs of these yeasts as well. Good luck!

 

[VTMongoose]

Consider using Lallemand Farmhouse at the low temp. range. Last time I used it like that and it gave me very nice monastery belgiany style aroma and flavor profile. Keep in mind the nutrition needs of these yeasts as well. Good luck!

It's interesting you say that. A member of my homebrew club here in Greenville recently brewed a Saison with that yeast, which I got a free sachet of from a competition. For a "saison" it finished surprisingly high (1.008 - nearly perfect for a Belgian Tripel, though), and was also "very" esterey for a "saison" yeast. I will for sure be throwing my sachet at a future batch, TBD. I have other Belgians in the pipeline that need to be brewed first.

 

[Miraculix]

It's interesting you say that. A member of my homebrew club here in Greenville recently brewed a Saison with that yeast, which I got a free sachet of from a competition. For a "saison" it finished surprisingly high (1.008 - nearly perfect for a Belgian Tripel, though), and was also "very" esterey for a "saison" yeast. I will for sure be throwing my sachet at a future batch, TBD. I have other Belgians in the pipeline that need to be brewed first.

I've tried that 50/50 with lallemand abbey in the mix vs. abbey only. The mix version took a bit longer to mature but certainly is nicer. The farmhouse brings some acidity that's nice in a stronger beer.

I think it's probably also a nice choice alone, without the abbey.

 

[Sipina]

It's interesting you say that. A member of my homebrew club here in Greenville recently brewed a Saison with that yeast, which I got a free sachet of from a competition. For a "saison" it finished surprisingly high (1.008 - nearly perfect for a Belgian Tripel, though), and was also "very" esterey for a "saison" yeast. I will for sure be throwing my sachet at a future batch, TBD. I have other Belgians in the pipeline that need to be brewed first.

They bred out the diastaticus genes. I've found in my brewing that is an advantage because I can still adjust for drynes via mashing or adding totally fermentable sugar. With the diastaticus dry yeast I was using before I did not have these options, beers were finishing at the 1.000-2 mark. Only the addition of wheat or other juicer grains can be of help.

I find farmhouse very versatile for belgian styles so far. I brewed a very nice saison and 'wintery amber' ale with it and I think it would work out really nice in a belgian Wit as well.

I find farmhouse yeast combines good with spices generally used in belgian recipes.

EDIT: 3.7.2025

 

[MikeCo]

I have brewed several batches of a Belgian single with this yeast and really like it.

What temperature did you ferment it at? I just kegged a Belgian single with Abbaye and find it rather boring. Not a lot of yeast character. I started at 68F and gradually raised it to 74.

 

[Sipina]

Another yeast that you could consider is either M31 or M41 from MangroveJack's. Both are diastaticus but in my experience give a correct profile.
A combo of yeast might be an interesting approach like Miraculix had suggested.

 

[Kickass]

I just kegged a Belgian single with Abbaye and find it rather boring.

I like most of the Belgian yeast profiles but find many examples a little too exaggerated. One of the reasons I really enjoyed Abbaye is because the flavor was there, but not in an overtly cartoonish way. Taste is subjective so it’s reasonable that one brewers “boring” is another’s “just right”. Abbaye is my just right.

 

[ncbrewer]

I noticed something on the last Belgian pale ale that I brewed with Abbaye. I bottle condition. With this last batch, the yeast cake on the bottom isn't as firm as it could be. A normal pour, decanting off the cake, can get some of the yeast into the glass and make it hazy. I have to pour more carefully than normal to get a clear glass of beer. I'm not really sure if this is different than it has been on other batches - maybe I'm normally extra careful when pouring with this yeast but don't realize it. Has anybody else seen this?

 

[Kickass]

Has anybody else seen this?

I kegged mine so probably a useless data point. I didn’t notice anything hazier than expected.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I've tried that 50/50 with lallemand abbey in the mix vs. abbey only. The mix version took a bit longer to mature but certainly is nicer. The farmhouse brings some acidity that's nice in a stronger beer.

I think it's probably also a nice choice alone, without the abbey.

Another home brewer recently sent me two beers from the same wort, one fermented with Farmhouse and one with BE-134. The 134 beer was the clear winner for me, a yeast I've never used. I preferred it's dryness and acidity, it was almost lemony. The Farmhouse beer was fine but lacking sharpness, for my tastes. I'm a fan of liquid saison yeasts but I've bought some BE-134 cos I enjoyed that glass of beer.

 

[Miraculix]

Another home brewer recently sent me two beers from the same wort, one fermented with Farmhouse and one with BE-134. The 134 beer was the clear winner for me, a yeast I've never used. I preferred it's dryness and acidity, it was almost lemony. The Farmhouse beer was fine but lacking sharpness, for my tastes. I'm a fan of liquid saison yeasts but I've bought some BE-134 cos I enjoyed that glass of beer.

Your description sounds like the type of saison I like. I might give this one a try too. I don't remember if I ever brewed with it.

 

[Sipina]

Another home brewer recently sent me two beers from the same wort, one fermented with Farmhouse and one with BE-134. The 134 beer was the clear winner for me, a yeast I've never used. I preferred it's dryness and acidity, it was almost lemony. The Farmhouse beer was fine but lacking sharpness, for my tastes. I'm a fan of liquid saison yeasts but I've bought some BE-134 cos I enjoyed that glass of beer.

BE-134 is a good yeast however one should make some recipe adjustments to make it best. BE-134 is a hardcore diastaticus and will finish at 1 or 2 points Sg or lower. Therefore adding some malted or raw wheat to increase the body is recommended. IME it tends to be strongly phenolic in aroma and flavor therefore one should find ways via hops or herbal maybe fruit additions to add more fruity notes to have a better balance of phenolic spice and fruity notes. BE-134 certainly has the sharpnes. I enjoyed farmhouse more because of the more balanced profile regarding phenolic and fruity and leaving more residual sugar and drynes can still be achieved via mashing regime or other methods.

Also it gets much better with proper conditioning and aging.