Lagering

[Diesel30]

I have done my very first True Lager. I have been fermenting for 2 weeks at approximately 50 degrees. I plan to leave it in the fridge another week, then secondary. I have heard many people talk about the lagering process and I am looking for some good direction here.

1) When I secondary, I was told that I need to bring the temp up for about two days. One person told me to just bring it up to room temp and another told me that I need to only bring it up to about 70. Which is correct?

2) After I bring the temp up for two days, then I was told to bring the temp back down, to about 30 from one person and to about 40 or 50 by another person. What is the best temp to bring it down to.

3) How long is the lagering process? One person mentioned that it takes about 6 weeks at approximately 30 degrees or so before you are ready to bottle. Then another mentioned that after bringing the temp back down to around 40 or 50, then leave it for almost a week or so (just long enough to cold crash it) and then you are ready to bottle. Do I need a long lagering process after the rest, or can it be bottled after the cold crash?

 

[Cybershadow]

My LHBS told me to lager at 50-55 degrees. He has people that have won awards for their lager doing that. I say keep it simple, lowering it 2-3 degrees every day or so seems like to much work.

 

[wildwest450]

My LHBS told me to lager at 50-55 degrees. He has people that have won awards for their lager doing that. I say keep it simple, lowering it 2-3 degrees every day or so seems like to much work.

Another LBS that gives out wrong information.. Those are fermenting temps(for lagers), not lagering temps. Lagering is typically done in the low to mid 30's.

 

[Diesel30]

Another LBS that gives out wrong information.. Those are fermenting temps(for lagers), not lagering temps. Lagering is typically done in the low to mid 30's.

How long is the lagering process? And is the 2 day rest period enough or too much?

 

[Cybershadow]

I agree with you, but he told me this is how he does it and has otehr customers that use the same method with brews that have won awards. Can you really argue with that?

 

[wildwest450]

1) When I secondary, I was told that I need to bring the temp up for about two days. One person told me to just bring it up to room temp and another told me that I need to only bring it up to about 70. Which is correct?
Only necessary if you detect diacetyl.
2) After I bring the temp up for two days, then I was told to bring the temp back down, to about 30 from one person and to about 40 or 50 by another person. What is the best temp to bring it down to.
Lagering temps are in the low to mid 30's, I prefer 34 or 35F.
3) How long is the lagering process? One person mentioned that it takes about 6 weeks at approximately 30 degrees or so before you are ready to bottle. Then another mentioned that after bringing the temp back down to around 40 or 50, then leave it for almost a week or so (just long enough to cold crash it) and then you are ready to bottle. Do I need a long lagering process after the rest, or can it be bottled after the cold crash?

It's dependent to a degree on your og. i believe it's a week for every 8 points? So a 1.064 beer would go for 8 weeks. Don't quote me on that one, my mind is slipping...

...

 

[Cybershadow]

You may be right Diesel, I am not saying you are wrong. I really don't know the difference between conditioning at 35 degrees or 55 degrees. what is happening in the beer that the extra 20 degrees is needed? Do you know? i would like a technical answer to this.

 

[wildwest450]

I agree with you, but he told me this is how he does it and has otehr customers that use the same method with brews that have won awards. Can you really argue with that?

That's fine he won awards with it. Bad information is still bad information. You don't need to take my word for it, lagering has been around for a few years.

 

[Cybershadow]

so you don't really know then, you are just going on what you heard. does anyone on here know why to lager at 32-35 degrees as compared to 50-55? I want to hear an honest answer.

 

[Cybershadow]

and how can it be bad info if the beers turn out good? Isn't it all about making good beer?

 

[Diesel30]

...

I am new to this whole thing, so I may need a little explanation to what diacetyl and how do you detect that?

But what I am understanding from what you stated below is that after fermentation has finished and I secondary, I need to lager somewhere around 35 for a period of time(dependent on my OG) before it is ready to bottle. And that happens directly after I secondary if there is no diacetyl? Is that the jest of what you said?

I will do some checking on the time frame to verify what you mentioned on the time frame to lager, so there is no need to verify unless you just happen to have it. Thanks for your help.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

so you don't really know then, you are just going on what you heard. does anyone on here know why to lager at 32-35 degrees as compared to 50-55? I want to hear an honest answer.

From How to Brew by John Palmer
(my own emphasis added)

Chapter 10 - What is Different for Brewing Lager Beer?

10.5 When to Lager

It takes experience for a brewer to know when primary fermentation is winding down and the beer is ready to be transferred. If you insist on brewing a lager for your very first beer, you are going to be flying blind. You can play it safe by waiting several weeks for the primary phase to completely finish (no more bubbling) and rack then, but you will have missed your opportunity for a diacetyl rest. As discussed in the previous chapter, you should rack to a secondary when the krausen has started to fall back in. The bubbling in the airlock will have slowed dramatically to 1 or 4 bubbles per minute, and a hydrometer reading should indicate that the beer is 3/4 of the way to the terminal gravity. Knowing when to rack takes experience, it's as simple as that.

I like to ferment and lager in glass carboys because the glass allows me to see the activity in the beer. During primary fermentation, there are clumps of yeast and trub rising and falling in the beer and it's bubbling like crazy- it literally looks like there is someone stirring it with a stick. When you see that kind of activity slow down, and things start settling towards the bottom, you know the primary phase is over and it's safe to rack.

The lagering temperature and duration are affected by both the primary fermentation temperature and the yeast strain. These are the four primary factors that determine the final character of the beer. Some general guidelines for fermentation times and temperatures are listed below:
Check the yeast package information for recommended fermentation temperature(s).
The temperature difference between the primary phase and the lager phase should be roughly 10°F.
Nominal lagering times are 3 - 4 weeks at 45°F, 5 - 6 weeks at 40°F, or 7 - 8 weeks at 35°F.
Stronger beers need to be lagered longer.
Nothing is absolute. Brewing is both a science and an art.
A common question is, "If the beer will lager faster at higher temperatures, why would anyone lager at the low temperature?" Two reasons: first, in the days before refrigeration when lager beers were developed, icehouses were the common storage method - it's tradition. Second, the colder lagering temperatures seem to produce a smoother beer than warmer temperatures. This would seem to be due to the additional precipitation and settling of extraneous proteins (like chill haze) and tannins that occur at lower temperatures.

 

[Diesel30]

You may be right Diesel, I am not saying you are wrong. I really don't know the difference between conditioning at 35 degrees or 55 degrees. what is happening in the beer that the extra 20 degrees is needed? Do you know? i would like a technical answer to this.

I really dont know, or I would not have posted this. But I plan on doing some research to find out. I just know that there is a lagering process (if you want a true lager that is) and it is colder. The first beer I ever made was a partial extract ocktoberfest and I did not lager it. I just fermented at around 70 (in a closet) and then bottled. That was before I got a fermenting fridge and the ability to make a proper lager. The kit was given to me as a birthday present from my brother and when I discussed it with the guy that owned the brewshop where it was purchased, he mentioned that you dont have to ferment it at the lower temperatures or do the lagering process, but it will not be a true lager if you dont follow the process. That is why I am looking for some help on this issue.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

That's fine he won awards with it. Bad information is still bad information. You don't need to take my word for it, lagering has been around for a few years.

Winning an award isnt really an indication of a world class beer. It just means that on a given day, in that given contest, to those given judges, it was the best entry in the category. Who knows how many other entries there were, and where the contest was.

 

[wildwest450]

and how can it be bad info if the beers turn out good? Isn't it all about making good beer?

I'm done arguing. Make your beer how you want to.

 

[Cybershadow]

As far as the rest period, I've heard doesn't hurt to do the rest all the time. I let mine sit at room temp for 3 days then transfer to a carboy for lagering. Diacetyl smells like butterscotch or a buttery smell/flavor. The yeast will become active again and eat it up at around the 70 degree mark. Usually takes 2-3 days. i say do it, can't hurt.

 

[Diesel30]

Thanks strat thru. I appreciate it. It appears I have missed my window for the diacetyl rest. So I am just going to secondary and then lager. I appreciate all of your help and thanks to wilwest450 as well. I am going to make this beer again before too long and this time I will make sure that I hit things a little more dead on.

 

[Cybershadow]

make sure if you leave it out that you cover it to keep the light from ruining the beer.

 

[Diesel30]

Cyber thanks. I am not sure if I am going to do the diacetyl rest or not. But if I do, I will probably just do it in the fridge and turn the controller up to 70 or so. If I dont do it in the fridge, I have a closet that will only get up around 78 and I don't really think I want it to get that warm. And according to the post above, I need to drop my lagering down to about 40, 10 less than what I fermented at, and leave it for 5 to 6 weeks. I just had no idea that this process takes so long. That is me being naive. Oh well, I just hope it all turns out good.

 

[Cybershadow]

no problem, i just turned my freezer off and opened the lid and put a blanket over the carboy. Right now my basment is at 67 degrees. When i started my Oktoberfest 2 weeks ago it was 71 degrees. It's starting to get below 80 degrees in the day here in PA so i may not even need my freezer for the rest of the year except to lager, which i do around 45-50 degrees.

 

[Mateo]

There is no such thing as missing your diacetyl. You still have the opportunity to do one at most any time. If you perceive diacetyl in a near finished beer you can use the method of Krausening (adding a little active yeast/wort mixture) to eliminate the diacetyl. To some degree all diacetyl will be reduced during lagering, it just goes faster with active yeast.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks strat thru. I appreciate it. It appears I have missed my window for the diacetyl rest. So I am just going to secondary and then lager. I appreciate all of your help and thanks to wilwest450 as well. I am going to make this beer again before too long and this time I will make sure that I hit things a little more dead on.

There is no such thing as missing your diacetyl. You still have the opportunity to do one at most any time. If you perceive diacetyl in a near finished beer you can use the method of Krausening (adding a little active yeast/wort mixture) to eliminate the diacetyl. To some degree all diacetyl will be reduced during lagering, it just goes faster with active yeast.

Correct. You may have missed the optimal time for the diacetyl rest, simply because the yeast is more active before the primary fermentation is completely over. The yeast will still go back and "clean up" the diacetyl, so don't skip it!

If you want to taste for diacetyl, you can simply taste a sample. If it has a buttery taste, it's loaded with diacetyl. If it's got a "slickness" or "oiliness" to the mouthfeel, or you feel an oiliness on the tongue, that's a smaller amount of diacetyl. In John Palmer's book, he talks about a test involving some of the beer to test for diacetyl. I don't think that's necessary, since simply doing a diacetyl rest as a matter of course for lagers won't harm the beer and will probably help it, so it's routinely done.

After the diacetyl rest, rack the beer to a carboy and begin the lagering phase. I like to drop the temperature 5 degrees per day until I'm at 34 degrees. I then lager there for 1 week for each 8-10 points of OG. So, for an OG of 1.065, I'll lager for 7-8 weeks.

As was mentioned, lagering at colder temperatures is preferred because it'll create a smoother lager.

 

[barrog]

Any reason to drop the temp by 5 deg per day to 34 versus doining all at once?

 

[menschmaschine]

Any reason to drop the temp by 5 deg per day to 34 versus doining all at once?

Yes, more or less. Brewing: Science and Practice (Briggs, et al.) states that shocking lager yeast with cold temperatures for lagering runs the risk of the yeast excreting proteolitic enzymes, thereby reducing head formation/retention (i.e., the excreted enzymes break down proteins more than expected). However, some homebrewers cold crash lagers for lagering and don't seem to experience issues like this. So, do what you like with that information.

The only other thing that seems to make sense is if you're bottling, shocking the yeast may take more overall yeast out of suspension during the lagering stage than it would have if the yeast were gradually acclimated to the lower temperatures. So, carbonation could take longer if no additional yeast is added at bottling. I don't have any specific text to back that up, but it seems at least possible.