Lagering Question a la Brulosophy

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

Hello all,
I love the complexly hopped, delicate flavor of certain lagered beers like Kolsch, Berliner Weisse, Munich Helles, and certain Pilsners. Unfortunately, I do not have a temp controlled ferm chamber. While I am building a keezer, which could be used as a ferm chamber without kegs, I would prefer to just start kegging outright. If I am to believe Marshall and the others at Brulosophy, it is possible to make award winning lagers without fermenting them at standard lager fermentation temps. I haven't tried this myself, and would like to tap into your experience before I dump a 5.5 gallon fermenter of garbage down the drain. Has anyone fermented "lagers" at 68 degrees Fahrenheit? Is a cold-lagering period still required after the fermentation? I can cold-crash in my keezer, but I really would love to start moving into new territories other than ales. HALP!!!!

 

[RM-MN]

The word lager is German for warehouse or storage. Lagers were originally stored in caves (if the lore is correct) because refrigeration hadn't been invented so beer would have been brewed when the temperature was right for brewing and fermenting. It was then bottled and stored for later use. One of the benefits from the long cool storage was that suspended yeast dropped out. That can still happen at 68 degrees but it takes a long time, months at least. Chilling the beer makes the yeast drop out quicker so your beer is ready to drink in weeks instead of months. If you have the room, bottle a batch of ale and let it sit for 6 months. (May to October, the weather would have been right for brewing in May, the beer would have been opened in October, just in time for Octoberfest). I'll bet you will see a marked change from letting it sit for that long. Caveat: beers with hop aroma as the main feature will not age well as the aroma will be gone in about 3 months.

 

[RM-MN]

Notice that in the previous post that I did not suggest that you try a lager yeast. Brulosophy suggests that warm fermented lagers work, I have never tried a lager yeast.

 

[dmtaylor]

I fermented my last pilsner with W-34/70 at room temperature like Brulosophy suggests. It was full of esters and scored 28 in competition.

I have had far greater success with Wyeast 2206 fermented cold as traditional, where my beer has medaled and tasted friggin fantastic.

YMMV.

 

[Miraculix]

I also used 34 70 at room temperature and did not have Esther problems.

I will try mangrove Jack's california common next, should clear better and should work even better at room temperature, according to the internet.

 

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

At the behest of George Hummel, at Home Sweet Homebrew, I picked up a pack of WY1007 German Yeast, and propagated it in a starter to about 150 mL of yeast slurry after cold crashing. I have a frozen yeast bank, so I am planning on storing much of it in glycol. George said that I would have better success making a pseudo-lager with a very clean fermenting german ale yeast, than a more traditional yeast such as Kolsch, etc. Indeed, after the starter had fully fermented, there was very little sensory evidence of substantial ester production.

I know that traditional lager beer requires a 3-5 week cold ferment around 50'F, a diacetyl rest around 70'F for 24-72 hr, and a several month lager in cold storage. I am curious if using this clean ale yeast (again, Wyeast 1007) at 68'F for 2-3 wk, then cold crashing at 34'F and fining with gelatin before kegging would yield a decent beer. I do not enter competitions, so I am not worried about scoring by a BCJP panel, but I would like to expand my brewing experience beyond the usual stouts, ales, and IPA's that I am brewing.

I would use a grist bill that is characteristic of the lager styles, with whirlfloc in the boil, a cold crash, and gelatin in the keg. I don't want to seem like i am ignoring the above posts, I appreciate your feedback, but I am curious if anyone has attempted a pseudo-lager with the techniques I have just described (clean yeast, 68'F ferment, cold-crash, gelatin, keg). I understand that I will be risking ester production and off flavors.... If nobody has tried this and would like to see whether or not it works, I will create a post in the future once I have the chance to try it. On the upside, my new keezer build will allow me to cold crash easily, as it can fit 4-5 corny kegs, but I only have 1 as of right now.

I know realize that these delicate styles leave little room for error, as there is not a massive hop charge to hide behind, and it would be ideal to just use a ferm-chamber (which I could do with my keezer providing there are no filled kegs in it), but space and finances prohibit me from doing so in my city row-home.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK! Would you be interested in reading a thread exploring the processes I have described here???

 

[TANSTAAFB]

My ferment fridge crapped out during a recent move so I gave it a shot with 34/70 at 65-70°F. I'll be kegging these tonight so I'll update here. Check out the Warm Fermented Lager Thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/592169/

 

[TheHopfather]

I've done a couple of "lagers" at 66F with 34/70, I've also done the same with Wyeast 2565 (kolsch). All of the beers came out fine, no ester issues to deal with, clean and crisp tasting. I prefer to use the 2565 to be honest with you, simply because I can never seem to get 34/70 to drop clear.

If you are building a kegerator/keezer I would just ferment the beer as planned and when you hit FG keg it, put it on gas in the keezer and just leave it. Let it lager on gas for a month or so and I'm sure you'll end up with what you are looking for. No need to lager in primary/secondary, just do it in the keg.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

34/70 is pretty notorious for taking a long time to clear up. In my experience it takes a couple of weeks, even with gelatin, but then BAM it's clear!

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

Hello all,
I love the complexly hopped, delicate flavor of certain lagered beers like Kolsch, Berliner Weisse, Munich Helles, and certain Pilsners. Unfortunately, I do not have a temp controlled ferm chamber. While I am building a keezer, which could be used as a ferm chamber without kegs, I would prefer to just start kegging outright. If I am to believe Marshall and the others at Brulosophy, it is possible to make award winning lagers without fermenting them at standard lager fermentation temps. I haven't tried this myself, and would like to tap into your experience before I dump a 5.5 gallon fermenter of garbage down the drain. Has anyone fermented "lagers" at 68 degrees Fahrenheit? Is a cold-lagering period still required after the fermentation? I can cold-crash in my keezer, but I really would love to start moving into new territories other than ales. HALP!!!!

Hello all,
I love the complexly hopped, delicate flavor of certain lagered beers like Kolsch, Berliner Weisse, Munich Helles, and certain Pilsners. Unfortunately, I do not have a temp controlled ferm chamber. While I am building a keezer, which could be used as a ferm chamber without kegs, I would prefer to just start kegging outright. If I am to believe Marshall and the others at Brulosophy, it is possible to make award winning lagers without fermenting them at standard lager fermentation temps. I haven't tried this myself, and would like to tap into your experience before I dump a 5.5 gallon fermenter of garbage down the drain. Has anyone fermented "lagers" at 68 degrees Fahrenheit? Is a cold-lagering period still required after the fermentation? I can cold-crash in my keezer, but I really would love to start moving into new territories other than ales. HALP!!!!

Doesn't that "lager" fermented at 68 degrees become a California Common or a Steam Beer by definition? It can be good but won't resemble a Pilsner or Helles.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

That's a contentious question for some! I think of it more as the type of yeast I'm using. And several Brulosophy experiments resulted in people NOT being able to distinguish between a lager style beer fermented at traditional lager temps vs room temp. Again, check out the warm fermented lager thread

 

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

That's a contentious question for some! I think of it more as the type of yeast I'm using. And several Brulosophy experiments resulted in people NOT being able to distinguish between a lager style beer fermented at traditional lager temps vs room temp. Again, check out the warm fermented lager thread

Will do. Thank you!

 

[dmtaylor]

I love Wyeast 1007. You can indeed pull off a great "lager" with this ale yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

We have the thread "warm fermented Lager" in this forum. Why not continue the discussion there to collect the information in one thread for easier access?

 

[SFC Rudy]

The word lager is German for warehouse or storage. Lagers were originally stored in caves (if the lore is correct) because refrigeration hadn't been invented so beer would have been brewed when the temperature was right for brewing and fermenting. It was then bottled and stored for later use. One of the benefits from the long cool storage was that suspended yeast dropped out. That can still happen at 68 degrees but it takes a long time, months at least. Chilling the beer makes the yeast drop out quicker so your beer is ready to drink in weeks instead of months. If you have the room, bottle a batch of ale and let it sit for 6 months. (May to October, the weather would have been right for brewing in May, the beer would have been opened in October, just in time for Octoberfest). I'll bet you will see a marked change from letting it sit for that long. Caveat: beers with hop aroma as the main feature will not age well as the aroma will be gone in about 3 months.

Just my anecdotal experience, I started brewing when I was stationed in Germany. I had a room in my basement with no heat and a/c. Oddly enough the room maintained ale fermentation temps in the summer and lager fermentation temps in the winter.

 

[Sammy86]

Hello all,
I love the complexly hopped, delicate flavor of certain lagered beers like Kolsch, Berliner Weisse, Munich Helles, and certain Pilsners. Unfortunately, I do not have a temp controlled ferm chamber. While I am building a keezer, which could be used as a ferm chamber without kegs, I would prefer to just start kegging outright. If I am to believe Marshall and the others at Brulosophy, it is possible to make award winning lagers without fermenting them at standard lager fermentation temps. I haven't tried this myself, and would like to tap into your experience before I dump a 5.5 gallon fermenter of garbage down the drain. Has anyone fermented "lagers" at 68 degrees Fahrenheit? Is a cold-lagering period still required after the fermentation? I can cold-crash in my keezer, but I really would love to start moving into new territories other than ales. HALP!!!!

Yes I’ve used the quick lager method with 34/70.

Fermented 5 days at 61 then let it free rise to 68 and hold there for a diacetyl rest.

Hit it with gelatin and cold crash for a full 24 hours...

Yes I’ve medaled twice with this method and will continue to do it!

Cheers

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

Hello all,
I love the complexly hopped, delicate flavor of certain lagered beers like Kolsch, Berliner Weisse, Munich Helles, and certain Pilsners. Unfortunately, I do not have a temp controlled ferm chamber. While I am building a keezer, which could be used as a ferm chamber without kegs, I would prefer to just start kegging outright. If I am to believe Marshall and the others at Brulosophy, it is possible to make award winning lagers without fermenting them at standard lager fermentation temps. I haven't tried this myself, and would like to tap into your experience before I dump a 5.5 gallon fermenter of garbage down the drain. Has anyone fermented "lagers" at 68 degrees Fahrenheit? Is a cold-lagering period still required after the fermentation? I can cold-crash in my keezer, but I really would love to start moving into new territories other than ales. HALP!!!!

Isn't that what "Steam beer" or California common is?

 

[Lefou]

There are a couple of theories about steam beer. California Common seems to be a US variation of a German Dampfbier method. Personally, if my yeast is happy it doesn't matter to me as a home brewer whether the yeast ferments on the top or bottom, as long as the result matches the style I'm seeking.
Making a "true" lager at home means extra gear for me. I usually use the weather to dictate what beers I'll brew. Now that I have a new ferm chamber to play with during summertime there are new things to try, method and ingredient-wise, beyond a basic ale.

 

[Lefou]

According to what I've read, German Dampfbier was an all barley malt brew fermented with Bavarian Hefeweizen ale yeast. No wheat, and warm-fermented.
So many styles overlap that it's hard to keep them straight, and even better, nothing is truly concrete even when recipes are supposedly standardized.

 

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

I recently built a keezer which holds two cornies in the main space and two on the hump. I have considered using it as a ferm chamber (I have used it to cold crash), but I don't like the thought of having to clear my charged kegs out of there for 1-3 weeks. I would definitely try "lagering" in a keg for an extended time, and I guess I could leave my charged kegs outside in the cold if I were using the keezer to ferment. Maybe fermenting in a corny keg, in the keezer? Will probably try both methods at some point, and will post the results in a future thread once it happens.