Lagering 101... what are the basics of using Lager yeast

[billc68]

I want to make a few Lagers properly, I have made a Cooper's European Lager which does use a lager yeast and it turned out fine, at room temperatures.

I have since tried a Dutch Lager from an Extract/Grain kit and a Cerveza using California Lager yeast and an all liquid kit. The Dutch Lager, never took so I tossed in a Cooper's yeast after 24 hours and it seemed to brew and clear fine, tasted great on kegging day but now tastes awful (will try again after a few weeks in keg and I do have 12 bottles as well) The Cerveza seems to have also brewed fine at room temp but was taking forever to clear so I put my carboy in my keggerator, that might have been a mistake, we'll see.

I have everything I need to make a German Pils.

So now I want to do it right. I think I have gotten pretty good with ales, so what do I need to do. I plan to use my keggerator as a laggering fridge, I know there is a temp variance, so I plan to insulate the bucket and carboy so the temp inside will vary a lot less than the air in the fridge.

So far, after all my research, the only thing I really know is to ferment at 33-50 degrees, that's it. Don't know how long to ferment, how long to rack and bottle etc.

I read something about slowly reducing temps etc.

This winter I plan to make lager in my garage, I have a small heated room and plan to get a more sensitive thermostat so I can keep the temps around 40 during the winter months.

 

[craigbrew]

You need to ferment at 50-60 degree range. When the primary fermentation is done then you "Lager" in the 32-45 degree range.

 

[billc68]

Ok, how long does fermentation take and how long do you lager for? Am I Laggering in a carboy?

 

[craigbrew]

Well from what I have seen. Fermentation time is the same as an ale. Check your gravity before you transfer to carboy and then lager. Lager time depends on you. I see that most people lager 1-2 months. Oktoberfest is made in March and lagered all summer and drank in the early fall.

 

[billc68]

Well from what I have seen. Fermentation time is the same as an ale. Check your gravity before you transfer to carboy and then lager. Lager time depends on you. I see that most people lager 1-2 months. Oktoberfest is made in March and lagered all summer and drank in the early fall.

This would work very well for my winter plan, start 3 or 4 lagers in late fall and drink them in the summer. After they have laggered for a few months, can they be stored at room temp or should they be refrigerated?

I have read that you can use lager yeast at room temp bot for longer periods (10 days in the primary) but I am starting to doubt that after my attempts.
BUT the Cooper's Eur Lager does say just that, maybe their Lager yeast is special.

 

[passedpawn]

Lager fermentation is a little slower. My ales are done in a few days, but my lagers take at least a week. I just pulled a sample from a german pils I made 5 days ago and the yeast is still thick in suspension.

• I ferment lagers right at 48F for 2 weeks.
• Then, I move the temp up to 65 for 2 days. This helps the yeast clean up any intermediate by-products and ensures the fermentation is complete.
• Then it's cold lagering at 30F for as long as possible. I usually can't wait more than 2 weeks, but double that is usually advised. If you are bottle conditioning and cold lagering for many weeks, you might consider pitching a half packet of dry yeast (ale or lager) into the bottling bucket.

 

[eriktlupus]

Lager fermentation is a little slower. My ales are done in a few days, but my lagers take at least a week. I just pulled a sample from a german pils I made 5 days ago and the yeast is still thick in suspension.

• I ferment lagers right at 48F for 2 weeks.
  
  et: temps right but i usually let mine go for 4-6wks. i do this since i don't do diacetyl rests but rather let it start at room temp then drop it down to ferm temps.
  
• Then, I move the temp up to 65 for 2 days. This helps the yeast clean up any intermediate by-products and ensures the fermentation is complete.
  
  et: ^^^^^diacetyl rest^^^^^
  
• Then it's cold lagering at 30F for as long as possible. I usually can't wait more than 2 weeks, but double that is usually advised. If you are bottle conditioning and cold lagering for many weeks, you might consider pitching a half packet of dry yeast (ale or lager) into the bottling bucket.
  
  et: if bottling i suggest using the same strain of yeast for bottling as you did for ferm. i lager for the same time as my ferment was down to freezing temp(32)
  
  
  
  

it's best if you keep your lagers cool if not cold for storage rather then let them warm up to room temp as this can cause chill haze to appear.

 

[Bobby_M]

Chill wort to just under the ferment temp range.
Pitch a one gallon starter's worth of slurry.
Warm to low end of ferment temp range (probably 49F)
Ferment there about 10 days, then slowly warm to about 60F until all activity is done.
Chill to 35 for 2 days, rack to secondary and leave it at 35F for 2+ months.

 

[petep1980]

My lager ferments take about 2 weeks, and usually poop out around 1.020. However, I'll then move the fermenter up to room temp for another week and it'll get down to 1.014. After that I'll rack to a secondary and use gelatin and hold at lager temps for as long as march will allow --- usually 2-3 weeks and I'll bottle and just cellar until serving.

My biggest difficulty with making lagers though is getting the wort down to the 40s before pitching, it's actually impossible for me without top off water.

 

[Yooper]

Chill wort to just under the ferment temp range.
Pitch a one gallon starter's worth of slurry.
Warm to low end of ferment temp range (probably 49F)
Ferment there about 10 days, then slowly warm to about 60F until all activity is done.
Chill to 35 for 2 days, rack to secondary and leave it at 35F for 2+ months.

That's what I do, too. Except, I rack after the diacetyl rest, and THEN lower the temperature.

- chill wort to 50 degrees
- pitch HUGE amount of 48 degree yeast into wort
-ferment at 50 degrees for approximately 10-14 days.
-Raise temperature to 60-65 degrees for 48 hours (if diacetyl rest is needed)
-rack to secondary
-lower temperature to 34 degrees
-leave for one week for each 8 points of OG (1.064= 8 weeks of lagering)
-bottle or keg

 

[billc68]

That is what I will do for all Lagers from here on in (except the Coopers as I do have one canned kit left to try)

Has anyone ever fermented Lagers at warmer temps? 68-70F? I was told I could as long as I was very patient. However I am not sure if this worked, I did get fermentation, I did rack to a secondary but am thinking of racking again as I have a lot of sediment, it is now sitting at 39F in my keggerator for the last two days, mind you this is a California Lager yeast so I might get away with the warmer temps.

 

[billc68]

So lager for 1-2 months before carbonating?

I am guessing I messed this one up, I will just have to be patient to see what happens.

I can't remember the exact details but I fermented my Cerveza using California Lager yeast at room temp (about 70) it fermented for about 2 weeks, maybe 3 then I racked to a carboy for a few weeks. Then I decided, now that I have a keggerator, I moved it to the keggerator at about 40. It has been sitting in there for a week or two.

I now realize I have no room in my keggerator for my next lager which I want to do properly. Can I move this brew to a keg (which is way thinner than my carboy) and let it lager in there? Could I also add my priming sugar now and let it carbonate over the next 2 months or so?

 

[billc68]

Ok, I have just partially kegged and bottled my lager and primed both the the keg and the bottles.

NOW, what temp do I carbonate at? 50 in my fridge? or 70 at room temp?

 

[Yooper]

Ok, I have just partially kegged and bottled my lager and primed both the the keg and the bottles.

NOW, what temp do I carbonate at? 50 in my fridge? or 70 at room temp?

Room temperature.

 

[billc68]

Room temperature.

That was my assumption and that is where it is for now... two weeks and into the fridge.

 

[stevehaun]

Just to expand the discussion a bit. I do my lagers slightly differently than previous posters.
1. Chill wort to 60 F
2. Pitch generous amount of yeast slurry (minimum starter size 3 quarts per 5 gallons)
3. Cool wort to 50 F over the next 8 hours.
4. Ferment 3-4 weeks. I perform the diacetyl rest if the yeast strain requires it. If I do a diacetyl rest, I would warm the fermenter to 60F after about 10-14 days of fermentation. My total fermentation time would be shorter if I do the rest.
5. Rack into keg and lager at 35F for 1-2 months.

I use Wyeast 2206 almost exclusively for all my lagers. I have found that I do not need a diacetyl rest with this strain so I usually ferment for 3-4 weeks at 50F, rack to a keg and start lagering at 35F.

 

[Brewing Clamper]

So, now the question is, when you make a starter, what temp to you ferment that at?

 

[billc68]

Just to expand the discussion a bit. I do my lagers slightly differently than previous posters.
1. Chill wort to 60 F
2. Pitch generous amount of yeast slurry (minimum starter size 3 quarts per 5 gallons)
3. Cool wort to 50 F over the next 8 hours.
4. Ferment 3-4 weeks. I perform the diacetyl rest if the yeast strain requires it. If I do a diacetyl rest, I would warm the fermenter to 60F after about 10-14 days of fermentation. My total fermentation time would be shorter if I do the rest.
5. Rack into keg and lager at 35F for 1-2 months.

I use Wyeast 2206 almost exclusively for all my lagers. I have found that I do not need a diacetyl rest with this strain so I usually ferment for 3-4 weeks at 50F, rack to a keg and start lagering at 35F.

I am brewing tonight using a Wyeast Czech Pilsner, my plan is to pitch it at room temp and the move it to my fridge set at 50, I am brewing 5 IMP Gallons almost 6 US gallons so I am sure it will be close to 8 hours for it to cool to 50.

How do I know if it needs a Diacetyl rest and how long do I rest it for?

Would I just remove the fermenter from the fridge, then rack to carboy after it warms up or rack right away?

Thanks

You guys are great by the way.

 

[stevehaun]

Brewing clamper:
I ferment my lager starters at room temp and then chill for about 24 hours to drop suspended yeast before decanting and pitching the slurry.

Billc68:
I think that as long as you chill the wort quickly (< 12 hours) you will be fine. I would start to worry about off flavors if it took much longer to chill the wort to 50F. This is a lager brewing controversy: chill the wort to fermenting temps and then pitch the yeast versus chill wort to 60-70F, pitch the yeast and then chill the wort to fermenting temps. My approach is somewhat of a compromise.

I learned from other brewers that 2206 doesn't usually need a rest. I don't know about the yeast you are using. There is no harm in performing a rest and it is quite easy to do.

Diacetyl rest is typically for 48-72 hours. To perform the rest you could move the fermenter out of the fridge (or raise the temp in the fridge) for 48 to 72 hours and then rack. You want the yeast cake present for the rest. It is really that simple.

 

[billc68]

Well according to the yeast package, Wyeast recommends, pitching the yeast directly from the swollen smack pack at 70-75 and once fermentation is evident, adjust it to the desired fermentation temp.
That's what I will try for now.

 

[stevehaun]

Hey billc68:
I have an old friend named Joyce Larrabee that lives up on PEI. If ya know her, tell her hi from steve haun.
thanks!

 

[billc68]

OK, so I started a German Pils on the 13th, using Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils (what I had on hand) This is my first time trying to Lager at proper temps. I smacked the yeast about 24 hours before pitching, I pitched the yeast at 74 degrees, let it sit 2 1/2 hours and then moved it to my fridge set at 57 degrees. The yeast pack was very swollen by the time it was pitched.

Now it is approximately 60 hours later, the air lock looks like it has some pressure in it, but not bubbling at least not while I watch it. I took a hydrometer reading and adjusted it according to temp, looks like it has changed by .002

Are lagers generally slow to start? Next time, I might try a starter. I should also add the Wyeast packs are designed for 5 US Gallons while we make our beer here in 6 US Gallon batches, so this will obviously add some start time to the brew.

Should I be concerned? add some dry Lager yeast which I happen to have on hand or just RDWHAB???

 

[passedpawn]

OK, so I started a German Pils on the 13th, using Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils (what I had on hand) This is my first time trying to Lager at proper temps. I smacked the yeast about 24 hours before pitching, I pitched the yeast at 74 degrees, let it sit 2 1/2 hours and then moved it to my fridge set at 57 degrees. The yeast pack was very swollen by the time it was pitched.

Now it is approximately 60 hours later, the air lock looks like it has some pressure in it, but not bubbling at least not while I watch it. I took a hydrometer reading and adjusted it according to temp, looks like it has changed by .002

Are lagers generally slow to start? Next time, I might try a starter. I should also add the Wyeast packs are designed for 5 US Gallons while we make our beer here in 6 US Gallon batches, so this will obviously add some start time to the brew.

Should I be concerned? add some dry Lager yeast which I happen to have on hand or just RDWHAB???

First, yes, RDWHAHB (or RDWHAB if no HB on hand).

Maybe wait the full 3 days. At the cold temps bacterial infection is probably not going to be an immediate problem. If you don't see any activity in the next day, you probably do want to take action. I would raise the temp up to 65 for 12 hours and get the fermentation started.

I pitch around 70 (depends on temp of my pool) and immediately drop the temp to 50F (takes about 4 or 5 hours to get it that low). Fermentation takes off within 24 hrs. I don't get the crazy blowoffs at these temps; it is a subdued fermentation compared to ales.

A starter would be a great idea for your lagers, but not necessary. Underpitching and/or warmer fermentation will result in some fruit esters in your lager. Not the end of the world, just not ideal.

BTW, I have two G. Pils lagering at 32 right now. One has a liquid yeast (from starter) and the other was 2 packs of dry S-05.

 

[Yooper]

Even Wyeast's website recommends starters for lagers. By using just a smack pack, you seriously underpitched and there will be a long lag time. That's why we all make starters for lagers, especially if pitching cold or pitching at 70 and immediately dropping the temp. Directly from Wyeast's own website, http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_lagerbrewing.cfm:

Lagers typically have a reduced ester profile and are characterized as clean with discernable malt character. It is very important to recognize that pitch rate is directly related to ester production. Increasing the quantity of yeast pitched is the most effective method of reducing the ester profile in the finished beer. A minimum of 12 million cells per milliliter is recommended to keep esters at a minimum.

One Wyeast Activator pack will deliver about 6 million cells per milliliter to 5 gallons of wort. In order to increase this rate to 12 million cells per milliliter it is necessary to either pitch two Activators or to make a 0.5 gallon (2 liter) starter with an Activator.

Wyeast's instructions say to pitch at 70 and wait for signs of fermentation before dropping the temp. That's not ideal, but they tell you that so the yeast can get started without such a long lag time.

One of the most common questions we field is, “should I start my lager warm or cold?” The answer depends on how much time you have for your primary fermentation and how clean you want your final beer. The best results will be achieved by pitching at least 12 million cells per milliliter into cold and well aerated wort (48 to 58°F, 9 to 15°C).

If a faster primary fermentation is desired or you are pitching less yeast, then it is best to start a little bit warmer and then cool to the desired fermentation temperature once signs of fermentation are evident.

________________________________________________________________
My feeling is that they "let" you pitch one vial at warm temperatures and say it's ok is because most people really don't want to make starters and the instructions lead you to believe that it's not really necessary. Then, they turn around in the FAQs section and admit that you'll get better results by making a starter and pitching at the correct temperature.

Your lager will be ok, but the yeast have to reproduce quite a bit before they can start fermenting. That's why you are having such a lag time. It may be way over 72 hours before anything happens, in a lager without a starter.

 

[billc68]

Thanks, that's teh part that was confusing, thier website says to make a starter BUT the yeast package, says to pitch immediately.
Next time i am making a starter as the estery flavours is EXACTLY why I want to make a Lager, I prefer a clean crisp lager for light/golden beer. For a darker ale a little estery flavour is ok.

What about when I do make Ales, if I double my yeast can I reduce the Esters a little?

 

[passedpawn]

Thanks, that's teh part that was confusing, thier website says to make a starter BUT the yeast package, says to pitch immediately.
Next time i am making a starter as the estery flavours is EXACTLY why I want to make a Lager, I prefer a clean crisp lager for light/golden beer. For a darker ale a little estery flavour is ok.

What about when I do make Ales, if I double my yeast can I reduce the Esters a little?

Temps are best way to reduce esters. Also, some yeasts produce more fruity notes than others, so take a good look at the notes on the yeast co.'s website.

And yes, pitching more yeast will result in less esters.

 

[billc68]

Temps are best way to reduce esters. Also, some yeasts produce more fruity notes than others, so take a good look at the notes on the yeast co.'s website.

And yes, pitching more yeast will result in less esters.

And that applies to both Ales and Lagers? One of the kits we buy here comes with a double pack of yeast, but not sure if I am going to do kits anymore.

So brew on the low end of the temp scale? And more yeast. I have my current lager at 57 ish as Wyeast stated there would be less Sulfur at58, maybe I should have kept it lower and used a good starter. And where do you draw the line? when is too much yeast going to be an issue, I hear too much will give you a yeasty flavor.

 

[passedpawn]

And that applies to both Ales and Lagers?

Yes .

Regarding amount of yeast, www.mrmalty.com

 

[billc68]

Ok, somewhere between the 72nd and 96th hour, my airlock is quite active and the fridge is pretty smelly... This is good. So I am not going to worry, but what can I expect from this? more estery flavors? should still be better than most Ales in the Ester dept. right?

This fall I plan to make 3 lagers all at once in my small heated room in my garage. I can set the temp to whatever I want and hope it stays cold outside (I'm in Canada, I should be ok) I just have to find a thermostat that will give me temps below 10 Celsius (about 40) for the laggering stage of my brew. My plan is to brew in November and serve in Spring-Summer and brew ales in the summer to drink in the fall-winter.

 

[Brickhouse_Brew]

My lager yeast aren't doing much of anything, and rather than clutter up the page I figured I'd toss my questions here. I bought a Wyeast 2007 activator, and activated 3 hours before use but the bag never swelled (bag was kept at 40 degrees since purchase a week prior). I had no other options since it was sunday and added the "unyeasting" yeast. It has since been 24 hours and I am still getting nothing. The beer is currently sitting at around 46 degrees but it just cooled to that temperature so it hasn't been there long. I pitched the yeast at 70 degrees. Any ideas? Is it possible to add more yeast?