Lager question

[archthered]

I'll start with the TL;DR- If making a Light American Lager is there a reason not to just use a bunch of rice and corn and just enough 6-row to convert it all?

I know this leaves a bunch of other questions, like why they hell do you want to make an American Light Lager? So I'll elaborate, basically I have a bunch of guys that come over and hangout that are most Bud Light etc drinkers. They try and genuinely seem to enjoy my beer but they would still rather drink a light lager. So I would like to make a light lager for them some time. In addition to throwing a bone to some of my not so craft beer inclined friends I thought it would be a good way to really test by brew skills and see where I need to improve.

I looked at a bunch of stuff to develop my own recipe and noticed everyone talking about using a 1:4 ratio of rice to barley or suggesting 30-40% corn/rice. This got me wondering if you could do more rice/corn.

Looking at the diastatic power it should be possible to get 3 pounds of rice/corn to convert using only 1 pound of 6-row. You might want to do a protein rest to help limit haze but I'm not even sure that would be needed since I believe corn and rice are lower in protein than something like 2-row so it would all come out in the wash (by all means correct me on that).

All that said my understanding is that Bud and their ilk don't use more than the 30-40% which makes me wonder if there is some other reason NOT to do this. So is there a reason not to use mostly rice/corn with enough 6-row to convert it all? I know it would give a really light flavor, potentially almost flavorless, but isn't that half the point of a light lager?

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum, since I don't really have a recipe but rather a thought I thought it made more sense here rather than in the recipe forum, move it if I'm wrong about that.

 

[Saunassa]

Have you tried beirmunchers centennial blonde from recipe section? It is an ale and makes a light ale that only is a bit more hop flavor then bud. Well that's unless you decide it could use a bit more hop. Cream of Three crops is also a lighter flavored ale.

 

[archthered]

Have you tried beirmunchers centennial blonde from recipe section? It is an ale and makes a light ale that only is a bit more hop flavor then bud. Well that's unless you decide it could use a bit more hop. Cream of Three crops is also a lighter flavored ale.

No, I'm not looking for a recipe, I'm curious if there's a reason not to flip the conventional wisdom of how much rice to barely to use in a lager

P.S. ignore the frowny face in the emoji, there's only one off topic emoji and he looks mad, though I am not!

 

[Robert65]

The reason for a protein rest isn't haze. Rice and corn are very low nitrogen -- low protein -- so they lower the chance for haze. But they also don't contribute FAN, nitrogen compounds yeast need as nourishment. So a rest around 120°F breaks down proteins in the barley malt, which would normally contribute to body and foam, into simple aminos and such for yeast nutrition. You'd have to ensure that your super high adjunct beer had enough of these substances, or just add yeast nutrient to the wort and skip the protein rest. There have long been commercially produced malt beverages that use up to 60% adjunct, or even more, if not converted by the enzymes in malt, but by other chemical means. (The kind of stuff best consumed in a brown paper bag.)

 

[Vale71]

All that said my understanding is that Bud and their ilk don't use more than the 30-40% which makes me wonder if there is some other reason NOT to do this. So is there a reason not to use mostly rice/corn with enough 6-row to convert it all? I know it would give a really light flavor, potentially almost flavorless, but isn't that half the point of a light lager?

Yep, that's exactly the reason, flavor. Going heavier on adjuncts will really give you a beverage that barely resembles beer. Little to no head retention, so light in color as to be quasi-colorless and really watery mouthfeel with very little taste especially with little to no hops addedd.
Doesn't mean it can't be done though. I know the Chinese brewing conglomerates brew a light beer for the domestic market that goes as high as 60% rice. But again, most people probably only drink it because it's better than their tap water...

 

[Kirkwooder]

The reason for the mix of barely to adjunct is more for the flavor and mouth feel than for conversion, I believe. The reason for adding the adjuncts is to lighten the finished product, in both mouthfeel as well as malt profile, but going too far will result in a very watery, alcoholic "hot" final product that is not very pleasing. In order for a beer to be palatable to most who drink it, a beer needs to have some kind of balance.

Using extremely high levels of adjuncts will cause a very unbalanced final product. By all means, try it and let us know how it turns out, but tread lightly my friend.

 

[Saunassa]

My recipe suggestion was do to you post about your friends.
All I can think of is undistilled corn liquor flavored.

 

[keesh]

Only one way to find out, my man. Do it and post the results.

 

[archthered]

Yep, that's exactly the reason, flavor. Going heavier on adjuncts will really give you a beverage that barely resembles beer. Little to no head retention, so light in color as to be quasi-colorless and really watery mouthfeel with very little taste especially with little to no hops addedd.
Doesn't mean it can't be done though. I know the Chinese brewing conglomerates brew a light beer for the domestic market that goes as high as 60% rice. But again, most people probably only drink it because it's better than their tap water...

Thinking about this I kept thinking of Bud etc but completely forgot about stuff like Olde English 800 etc! That's basically what this would be!

My recipe suggestion was do to you post about your friends.
All I can think of is undistilled corn liquor flavored.

To your first point, sorry, at that time I was apparently unable to think of that, to your second point, me too, yuck!

Only one way to find out, my man. Do it and post the results.

While I like your way of thinking on this, and often do that kind of thing, I think I'll pass. Seems like a lot of time and effort into something I'm unlikely to enjoy in even the best case scenario and it's only down hill from there.



Thanks for all your input

 

[keesh]

Being a mite more sober this time around, may I rephrase myself a bit.

My thinking was the theory side of brewing is fun, and discussing and planning is essential. And learning what works for others and taking into account their results is a must. But at the end of the day, it's your brewery. I wanted to encourage you to follow your own path of discovery and find out a little along the way. That being said, it can be exhausting of your time and resources to be always lashing out into the unknown so I don't blame you for being cautious *and* curious. If you do make the plunge, I meant it: post the damn results!