Lager, pitching quantity, and starters

[Sharkness]

Hey all,
Intermediate extract brewer, but this will be my first lager since I just got a temp controlled keezer running. I'm gonna do the NB Czech Pilsner, and selected S-23 yeast. I assume just one vial will come. From what I've just read, everyone is saying you need 2 vials. Can I just make a bigger starter? Do you use starters at all with lager? Also, I've never used a dry yeast, is there anything non-obvious about pitching it?

Thanks
Sam

 

[Sharkness]

Also, what temp regimen should I follow, and when do I know when to move from primary to secondary? I have a garage that stays pretty cool, but can swing from 35 to 60 in 12 hours, crawl space stable at 50ish, and a keezer adjustable however I want, but I wanna keep it at reasonable serving temps most of the time.

I know this has been written about a lot, I'm just a little confused about what this yeast will do best with.

 

[Yooper]

I haven't ever used S23, or actually any dry lager yeast, but yes you'd need two packages if the OG is over about 1.050.

A fermentation temperature (not temperature swings) of 50-53 degrees is perfect.

 

[lhommedieu]

I've bee brewing ales for the past two years. I just made my second lager using White Labs 802 in a starter. Fermentation was successful at 50F. Do not expect as "dramatic" a fermentation as you might expect with ales - but if your pitching rate and temps are appropriate there should not be a lag. If you can ferment in your keezer at 50F, that is better than subjecting the beer to temperature swings.

I've never used dry yeast but a quick trip through some threads here at HBT have revealed that, although you can make a starter, it is not necessary. One of the advantages of dry yeast is that the proportion and viability of cells/grams is fairly stable. If you figure 17 billion cells/gram that's 2 packages. Some suggest that you re-hydrate the yeast in sanitary conditions.with warm water and a yeast nutrient.

 

[Sharkness]

Thanks for the response. I will procure another satchet of S-23 and figure out a rehydration/starter plan. Two follow up questions:

1) by 'fermentation' do you mean primary? Assuming proper pitch rates etc how long might primary on a lager take and how do I know when to rack to secondary?

2) If I primary at 50-53, then is 'lagering' the same as 'secondary,' and am I correct in thinking that that means I would rack to another vessel, and ease temps down to 35ish and leave it there for a longer period of time?

OK, so maybe more than two questions in there, but thanks for any help you have to offer.

 

[schiersteinbrewing]

Rehydrating dry yeast I sanatize everything, take 100ml (per pack) 90-98 deg ro water, put the yeast in and let it sit 20min. After 20min swirl it and dump in fermenter.

You ferment at 50deg until its about 75% done (usually 6-7 days), then you slowly raise the temperature to 60deg hold until fermentation is done (3-5 days) this is the diacetyl rest . Then rack to secondary and slowly lower temperature to lagering temperature I usually lager at 34 deg for at least a month if not more.

If you keg your beer your secondary container can be a keg and lager in the keg. This way all you do is hook up gas and carbonate when your done lagering, and reduces the changes of oxidation.

 

[Sharkness]

Thanks for the coherent guide, this is exactly what I've been looking for. Am I correct in interpreting that you don't use a starter, just 2 packs of yeast? I will water jacket in the crawl space to stabilize temperature, and then move it up to my upstairs bedroom. The thermal mass of the water jacket should slow down temp changes, but it won't be as ideal as a temp controlled fermenting chamber. I'll ease the keezer down to lager temps, and do that in a keg. Shall I purge headspace with co2 at ambient pressure, and just pull the pressure release valve every so often during lagering?

Thanks again, I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[lhommedieu]

You can purge the keg by putting in CO2 at 1-2 psi through the beer-in valve. I generally give it at least 5 minutes, and then purge a couple of times before filling the keg with beer. You have to purge anyway, or else the back pressure will play havoc with the beer in your carboy, lol.

The longer that you can lager, the better, imho. Testing for gas from time to time ensures that you still have a good seal.

 

[FarmerTed]

You don't need a starter if you re-hydrate and pitch the right amount of dry yeast.

 

[Sharkness]

So far I've just run co2 into kegs through the gas in at very low pressure for a minute before racking into them, making sure the syphon tube sits at the floor of the keg. I figure co2 sinks, and my tank is generally cooler than ambient air, and all I really need is a thin layer of co2 to sit on top of the beer to buffer it from the oxygen. Then I seal the keg and run co2 into the headspace, purge, refill, purge, refill. Is this problematic?

I've also never aged in a keg rather than carboy. What pressure should I keep the keg at during lagering? When I cool it, won't it develop negative pressure and suck air (and maybe contaminants) into it if I pull the release valve?

Thanks
Sam

 

[schiersteinbrewing]

Thanks for the coherent guide, this is exactly what I've been looking for. Am I correct in interpreting that you don't use a starter, just 2 packs of yeast? I will water jacket in the crawl space to stabilize temperature, and then move it up to my upstairs bedroom. The thermal mass of the water jacket should slow down temp changes, but it won't be as ideal as a temp controlled fermenting chamber. I'll ease the keezer down to lager temps, and do that in a keg. Shall I purge headspace with co2 at ambient pressure, and just pull the pressure release valve every so often during lagering?

Thanks again, I'll let you know how it goes.

That's correct just two packs of yeast.

My first lager ferment was done with a bucket of water, a few liter bottles filled with water and frozen, and an old t shirt. Place the carboy in the bucket of water, drape the t shirt over the carboy, place bottles of ice in the bucket. With a regular rotation of bottles I was able to keep temps in the 48-50deg range, the for the diacetyl rest just stop the frozen bottle rotation until 60deg was hit. Then start the bottle rotation again to maintain the 60deg.


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[schiersteinbrewing]

When lagering in keg I seal the keg with 30 psi, place it in the keezer and check it in a few days by opening the pressure valve to test the seal. If still holding pressure I leave it be. After sealing I spray the top with star san checking for leaks so it gets a little sanitation.

 

[Yooper]

So far I've just run co2 into kegs through the gas in at very low pressure for a minute before racking into them, making sure the syphon tube sits at the floor of the keg. I figure co2 sinks, and my tank is generally cooler than ambient air, and all I really need is a thin layer of co2 to sit on top of the beer to buffer it from the oxygen. Then I seal the keg and run co2 into the headspace, purge, refill, purge, refill. Is this problematic?

I've also never aged in a keg rather than carboy. What pressure should I keep the keg at during lagering? When I cool it, won't it develop negative pressure and suck air (and maybe contaminants) into it if I pull the release valve?

Thanks
Sam

Racking into the keg like that is fine. It doesn't matter if you put it on pressure or not during lagering. You can if you'd like. You don't need to pull the pressure relief valve during lagering, so that's not even a concern.

 

[lhommedieu]

So far I've just run co2 into kegs through the gas in at very low pressure for a minute before racking into them, making sure the syphon tube sits at the floor of the keg. I figure co2 sinks, and my tank is generally cooler than ambient air, and all I really need is a thin layer of co2 to sit on top of the beer to buffer it from the oxygen. Then I seal the keg and run co2 into the headspace, purge, refill, purge, refill. Is this problematic?

I've also never aged in a keg rather than carboy. What pressure should I keep the keg at during lagering? When I cool it, won't it develop negative pressure and suck air (and maybe contaminants) into it if I pull the release valve?

Thanks
Sam

I find that if I move beer with CO2 into a sealed, sanitized, purged keg, it's useful to keep purging the keg from time to time so you don't get negative pressure from the keg to the carboy. It also helps to vent any O2 that I inadvertently left in the keg. When I first started doing this, I couldn't tell how much beer that I was moving into the keg, and flooded my head space, had to re-sterilize the seal, etc. In order to leave enough head space in the keg, you can transfer either by the level of beer in the carboy or by mass.. To transfer by the level of beer in the carboy, simply find out how many centimeters of beer from point x to point y on your carboy equals the appropriate volume to move to your keg, and stop your transfer when the level has dropped from point x to point y. To transfer by mass, fill your keg with water to the level that you want, and then measure the mass of the water. When you're ready to transfer, place your keg on a digital floor scale (you need a good scale) adjust for tare, and fill until you've reached the appropriate mass.

If that's too much trouble, you can also do the following: purge the keg but then open the top and put the seal in a StarSan solution. Fill the keg slowly with beer using CO2. There should be enough residual StarSan in the keg so that the foam that gets pushed out re-sterilizes the top of the keg. Just in case, once you've filled the keg to the appropriate level (I use the top weld seam on the keg as a marker), re-sterilize the top of the keg by spraying with a fine mist of Starsan, and then reattach the seal without touching the opening of the keg with your hands until the seal is set. Pressurize the seal with CO2 and you're good to go.

If the above sounds complicated it's really not. Just a matter of some simple steps that become automatic after a while. The key is sanitation, sanitation, sanitation...

You're not completely purging the keg when you lift the release valve, and it's a closed system when the valve resets. I wouldn't worry about negative pressure but maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can advise you better. But I agree that too much paranoia is a good thing. I typically soak my QR valves before using them to transfer beer, etc.

Edit: What Yooper said, above. lol

 

[Sharkness]

I always starsan every part of my keg, set my carboy up on a table and my keg on the floor, run co2 into the keg for a minute to build a 'buffer layer' at the bottom of the keg, and start an auto-siphon with the tube touching the floor of the keg. If I feel ambitious I'll put sanitized foil over the carboy top and open keg during the siphon. I leave the top of the keg in a solution of starsan till I'm ready to seal it up, and spray everything with a starsan mist as I go. Once sealed I fill with co2 at 2-3 psi and burp it a few times. I understand this wouldn't cut it at a commercial brewery, but I'm pretty comfortable living with what strikes me as an incredibly low risk of contamination... am I missing something?