Lager Fermenting slow

[olstones]

Hi guys, brewed my first lager 10 days ago, everything seemed to go well.
Yeast is White Labs Pilsner, OG was 1.054 as per recipe. I pitched at 70, cooled to 52 and left it there until yesterday (9 days in), when I increased to 54.
I made a starter but that was most likely not big enough, one vile, 1.2 liters, 30 hours at room temp for 10 gallon batch. That said, fermentation had started the day after brew, lots of bubbles and thick kraussen.

I checked gravity on day 8 and it was at 1.040, checked again today (day 10) and it is at 1.039. I still have lots of kraussen, cant observer much (or any) airlock activity however.

Question is, should I just let it ride for another week? Or re-pitch now? Or increase temp more?

Thanks

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I would raise the temp and wait it out a little bit more.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Your starter was atrociously small. Using http://www.yeastcalculator.com/ you need 757 billion cells. Your starter made 161 (assuming it was not stirred and your yeast was 96% viable). If you want to brew big lager batches, I'd consider doing a small batch of steam beer first for your starter, then pitch the whole yeast cake. If you pitched your starter into a 5 gallon starter, you'd get enough yeast. Might as well drink the starter at that point.

 

[olstones]

What would you raise it to? 50-55 is what WL recommends and I am already at 54. Should I go above? And then stay there until d-rest?

@tennessean_87 I am aware that I messed up the size. Question is, will this work with time or do I need to intervene?

 

[timdillon36]

What i belive @tennessean_87 is saying is to raise this batch to ale temps of ~67 and call it a steam beer. Then brew this again and use the yeast cake from this beer as your decanted starter.

What do you use for a FV? If this was split in 2 you could leave 1 cold and raise the other and brew another 5 gal and put on half the yeast cake and see witch of the 3 turn out best.

Same yeast
Same wort
Different pitch rates
Different temps

 

[olstones]

I am fermenting in 2 6.5 gal carboys so I could take one out of the freezer I guess. My current brewing plans (and lagering capacity) will not allow for making this again until the entire first batch is done.

I will absolutely make an appropriate starter next time but I want to salvage this one, ideally as a lager, which sounds like it may not be possible, even if I added yeast.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Ive under pitched, hell I've seen people state in the confessions page that they under pitch lagers all the time...it happens..we all do it. Now lets fix it and stop beating the dead horse.

Yes, I understand optimal temp is 50-55 for the yeast but in this case you are probably going to want to try and go around 60 in my opinion....then you can slowly bump it from there until you hit D-rest and the kaursen falls. Then go right back down to lager temps and let it clean up.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Also, I have seen that you should give the beer a little shake to get the yeast going again.

 

[Gavin C]

Hi guys, brewed my first lager 10 days ago, everything seemed to go well.
Yeast is White Labs Pilsner, OG was 1.054 as per recipe. I pitched at 70, cooled to 52 and left it there until yesterday (9 days in), when I increased to 54.
I made a starter but that was most likely not big enough, one vile, 1.2 liters, 30 hours at room temp for 10 gallon batch. That said, fermentation had started the day after brew, lots of bubbles and thick kraussen.

I checked gravity on day 8 and it was at 1.040, checked again today (day 10) and it is at 1.039. I still have lots of kraussen, cant observer much (or any) airlock activity however.

Question is, should I just let it ride for another week? Or re-pitch now? Or increase temp more?

Thanks

Assuming your gravity reading is one taken with a hydrometer and not a refractometer it means your yeast are wiped out, You need more yeast. Other posibility is that the wort is poorly fermentable owing to mash errors. More yeast is unlikely to fix this in that case. Both factors may be in play but the underpitch is a known variable.

I would not shake rattle roll or otherwise needlessly assault the fermentors. I would not warm them to undesirable levels.

I'd keep the fermenting beer at 50F and pitch 4 packets of rehydrated Saflager 34/70 (or another comparable cheap dry lager yeast) and let it go.

You pitched warm and then cooled the beer. Arguably it's to the benefit of the beer to go the other direction; pitch cool and let it warm to desired fermentation temperature.

I pitch my lagers at 48F and let them rise to 50F till they are just shy of anticipated FG. I let them rise to 68F from there.

This way the yeast are only ever exposed to warming temperatures during most of their metabolic activity.

Again, if the reading was with a refractometer all of the preceding posts and this one are irrelevant.

If the krausen is still high, do nothing and let it ride. If krausen has fallen and it's not a refractometer data point something needs to be done.

 

[olstones]

Gravity taken with refractometer and I still have quite a bit of kraussen, it has fallen some, maybe 25% of the initial total at most.

So interpreting what you said, I just let it ride.
Out of curiosity, why the difference in approach from one gravity reading tool to another?

 

[Gavin C]

Gravity taken with refractometer and I still have quite a bit of kraussen, it has fallen some, maybe 25% of the initial total at most.

So interpreting what you said, I just let it ride.
Out of curiosity, why the difference in approach from one gravity reading tool to another?

a refractometer reading is not in the least bit acurate in the presence of alcohol.

If you have your OG and current refractometer reading you can plug the numbers into an algorithm to give you a closer estimate.

It sounds like it's finished 1.040 will likely convert to ~1.016 SG

Try this

http://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/

or This

http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/

 

[olstones]

I should add I tested with sample being around 52 degress with the refractometer...did not let it warm to room temp first

 

[timdillon36]

Gavin points out the obvious again.

With the presence of alcohol the refracto reading will b off. Use a search engine of your choice and a calculator you find to see what your gravity really is.

 

[Gavin C]

I should add I tested with sample being around 52 degress with the refractometer...did not let it warm to room temp first

Doesn't matter.

The tiny sample volume will rapidly equilibrate with the temperature of the refractometer (room temperature or ambient temperature of wherever the device was stored).

 

[olstones]

Thanks Guys, so if I am using these calculators correctly, starting with 13.32 Brix, current gravity at 9.7 Brix, the adjusted value is at 1.024, which is much more in line with what I was expecting. I will give it a few more days, then start d-rest.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Edit: refractometer question has already been addressed. Good catch Gavin.

 

[slickfish]

I would warm it up now while you still have some yeast activity.

 

[railwalker]

Warm it when the krausen starts to drop; and tasting at sample time will give you good information too.

 

[olstones]

So I kept the beer at 54 for a few more days, took a gravity reading and it had not moved anymore so I let it warm up to room temp last Friday (5 days ago), for d-rest. I started to get some activity again. Kraussen has not changed since, I still have the occasional bubble in airlock. Unfortunately the gravity also has not changed much anymore.

Should I just let it sit? Then lager, or just lager? Or pitch more yeast? I am at a loss with this beer.

 

[Gavin C]

So I kept the beer at 54 for a few more days, took a gravity reading and it had not moved anymore so I let it warm up to room temp last Friday (5 days ago), for d-rest. I started to get some activity again. Kraussen has not changed since, I still have the occasional bubble in airlock. Unfortunately the gravity also has not changed much anymore.

Should I just let it sit? Then lager, or just lager? Or pitch more yeast? I am at a loss with this beer.

You massively underpitched so the beer is done at 1.024. That's the primary error and is not correctable at this stage.

There are now trillions of yeast in the beer, adding a 100Billion more lager yeast will not be productive. Drop in the bucket, waste of money and time.

Add a different yeast like brett and wait months for this to become a brett lager. (Don't know if that's something that exists, I would not be interested i that but it is likely to lower the gravity over time.)

If you warm the beer, more CO2 will come out of suspension and the airlock will bubble. Your gravity will not get any lower as a result, it's just a release of dissolved gasses. Do so by all means if you want to perform a diacetyl rest. Lipstick on a pig most likely at this point given the SG.

Shaking or otherwise assaulting it will stir up trub and kick more CO2 out of suspension. It will bubble more but gravity will not lower.

Three options.

1: Learn from this batch and improve your next one. Package it up and drink or dump

2: Try a whole bunch of pointless heroics (listed above) to improve a flawed beer

3: Add amylase which will cleave simpler fermentable suagrs from more complex ones in the beer leading to further fermentation and a lower gravity.

I'd go with option 3 then proceed to option 1 as it is low cost with no downside. I don't want a 1.024 lager. You might so to each their own.

Best of luck.

 

[olstones]

Thanks Gavin!

I will obviously make an appropriate starter next time around.
I will probably just see how this tastes and decide if it is worth kegging.

I had a question about one of your previous posts. You say you pitch at 48 and then go to 50 for fermentation. What temps do you keep you starter at though? And I assume you make it in steps?

Thanks

 

[Gavin C]

Thanks Gavin!

I will obviously make an appropriate starter next time around.
I will probably just see how this tastes and decide if it is worth kegging.

I had a question about one of your previous posts. You say you pitch at 48 and then go to 50 for fermentation. What temps do you keep you starter at though? And I assume you make it in steps?

Thanks

I never make a stepped starter. I have a 5L flask that gets the job done in a single step for all my lagers. If I plan a big lager I'd just make a ~1.047 Pilsner or Helles first and use the slurry on the later big batch. Had great* success with a 1.057 Marzen doing just that. No starter, just slurry and plenty of it.

Starters regardless of the yeast strain; ale or lager, should be made at room temperature. This maximizes the rate of yeast growth and time efficiency. I make starters at 1.04 gravity in a single step.

If and when I ever harvest bottle dregs (I will in all likelihood never do that for reasons I won't bore you with), a sequential stepping is indicated. That would be the only exception.

I generally just keep a single lager strain going untill I want a change or it sits in the fridge too long giving me cause for concern re yeast viability and a need for a stepped starter. The time money and effort needed in a stepped starter is far more than the simplicity of getting a new strain and trying it out.

Typically I'll get 30+ gallons of lager over a span of 5-6 batches out of a single vial/pack of yeast without ever needing a stepped starter. To me, they offer nothing. Again, to each their own.

*I think it tastes great. Not battle tested in comps yet.