Lager fermentation

[marc1]

I have advanced as

I would assume my cleaning and sanitising was below par in the first batches washing with hot water and this sanitiser bag in pic. Although they tasted funky before i kegged i washed with chempro and starsan. I think ambient fermentation or possibly not cleaning the taps properly on the fermenting bucket would be biggest possibilities, also i used liqiud yeast without a starter as i said on the pack to sit in ambient for 3 hours! hopefully with the next batches ill have better results and follow strict sanitary guidlines.

Just to clarify, you:
1 - cleaned you fermenter with the sanitizer in the picture
2 - fermented
3 - it tasted weird
4 - used chempro and starsan on your kegs
5 - after one week in the keg it still tasted bad

If the problem is infection, this would indicate that contamination happened at or before the fermentation stage.

It could be that sanitizer from the picture - I've never used it but maybe it needs a long contact time to work well. The StarSan you have works great - mix it up in low TDS/distilled/reverse osmosis water and use it in a spray bottle, it will last a long time and it works pretty fast.

I got an infection on one of my early batches because I didn't realize that the spigot on the bottling bucket needed to be disassembled for proper cleaning. I had only been running cleaning and sanitizing solution through it. After infection I figured out it could be taken apart and found bits of gunk from previous batches inside it. After that I took it apart for cleaning every time.

I don't think liquid yeast sitting for 3 hours ambient temp would cause problems with off flavors (unless maybe it was really hot or you left it in the sun or something).

A weird taste could also be from chlorine in your water - making beer with chlorinated water can give off flavors. The amount of chlorine in your water supply could change over time, so it's possible that your first batches had lower chlorine that you didn't notice, and you later ones did.

 

[Jamie02173]

Just to clarify, you:
1 - cleaned you fermenter with the sanitizer in the picture
2 - fermented
3 - it tasted weird
4 - used chempro and starsan on your kegs
5 - after one week in the keg it still tasted bad

If the problem is infection, this would indicate that contamination happened at or before the fermentation stage.

It could be that sanitizer from the picture - I've never used it but maybe it needs a long contact time to work well. The StarSan you have works great - mix it up in low TDS/distilled/reverse osmosis water and use it in a spray bottle, it will last a long time and it works pretty fast.

I got an infection on one of my early batches because I didn't realize that the spigot on the bottling bucket needed to be disassembled for proper cleaning. I had only been running cleaning and sanitizing solution through it. After infection I figured out it could be taken apart and found bits of gunk from previous batches inside it. After that I took it apart for cleaning every time.

I don't think liquid yeast sitting for 3 hours ambient temp would cause problems with off flavors (unless maybe it was really hot or you left it in the sun or something).

A weird taste could also be from chlorine in your water - making beer with chlorinated water can give off flavors. The amount of chlorine in your water supply could change over time, so it's possible that your first batches had lower chlorine that you didn't notice, and you later ones did.

I actually done my first lager with half spring water and fermented it in a cold place but must have been 12 to 16c the other was an ipa extract and i fermented in a chamber with temp control. They were both not bad but a chalky taste in the lager most likely wasnt conditioned! I done the same process with my spigots by rinsing through the tap. Im covinced it could be the spigot. Another concern is i did not make a starter with tue liquid yeast. I have also used tap water for all my other batches 3 were bad 2 are in progress. Do you reccomend spring water?
Im going to use sarsan going forward from what i hear!
Also that was the process i reccon they were off before removing from primary. I thought one was not bad bad after 1 week but the off flavour developed in all 3 a week further.

 

[Jamie02173]

Too many comments to quote without losing my mind, so please don't take it as an affront if I repeat what you've said.

I second the lager being hard to learn on. There are so many steps to madness that if you aren't firmly grounded in the techniques you need you're going to set yourself up for failure. There is simply no place to hide when making lagers. Anything wrong shows up immediately.

Ed's Centennial Blonde is an absolutely amazing beer that I am way overdue on making again. It is simple, tastes great, and is wide open to adapting for your own tastes. Most importantly, it is an acceptable substitute for a lager, IMO.

You had mentioned using pils as a base malt. It requires a little extra hand-holding, mainly that it is prone to producing DMS (an overcooked, sulfury vegetable taste) if mishandled. If this is one of the problems you've experienced, take a look at how to mitigate it.

Working with ales will also help you up your sanitization game and get it ready for the time investment needed for a lager. This would also be my guess as to the source of the vinegar taste.

Try to leave your beer alone as much as possible. Messing with it opens it up to infection and, for lagers, temperature swings. I've found that my fermentation freezer has a good enough seal on it that I cause suck-back on the airlock whenever I open it. It isn't the end of the world, but I'd like to avoid it unnecessarily.

Good luck!

Ive been using pilsner malts in a few recipes and never knew any different! Can i ask what u mean by extra handling, as i buy my grains precrushed, should i crush more? Should i avoid pils to start?
The last 3 bad batches i did not use a fermentation chamber so now i am im hoping for better results, although im going to move onto a pale ale next.
I have purchased nottingham yeast to make the 2 beers reccomended but does not come with pitching temps i would assume around 18c also i have cascade hops.
I also have 3kg marris otter extra pale and 5kg clear choice extra pale i could use rather then any pilsner.

 

[bu_gee]

Ive been using pilsner malts in a few recipes and never knew any different! Can i ask what u mean by extra handling, as i buy my grains precrushed, should i crush more? Should i avoid pils to start?

Pils just requires that to take extra precaution against DMS. This may mean a longer boil to force off the compounds, but it isn't 100% clear that it makes for a major difference. The most important thing is that you have to cool it off quickly to keep the compounds from forming again as it lingers in the critical range where they are being produced but not hot enough to be driven off.

The last 3 bad batches i did not use a fermentation chamber so now i am im hoping for better results, although im going to move onto a pale ale next.
I have purchased nottingham yeast to make the 2 beers reccomended but does not come with pitching temps i would assume around 18c also i have cascade hops.
I also have 3kg marris otter extra pale and 5kg clear choice extra pale i could use rather then any pilsner.

The general rule I've heard and employ is to pitch at your fermentation temperature. Most ale yeasts do fine at cool room temperature so it should be fine at 18°C.

If you're looking to use lager yeast without a fermentation chamber, you might want to look at steam style beers which are pretty much defined by that set of conditions. They were pretty popular when I started brewing the better part of a decade ago, but I don't know if they're still as popular and I've never made one myself.

 

[Jamie02173]

Pils just requires that to take extra precaution against DMS. This may mean a longer boil to force off the compounds, but it isn't 100% clear that it makes for a major difference. The most important thing is that you have to cool it off quickly to keep the compounds from forming again as it lingers in the critical range where they are being produced but not hot enough to be driven off.




The general rule I've heard and employ is to pitch at your fermentation temperature. Most ale yeasts do fine at cool room temperature so it should be fine at 18°C.

If you're looking to use lager yeast without a fermentation chamber, you might want to look at steam style beers which are pretty much defined by that set of conditions. They were pretty popular when I started brewing the better part of a decade ago, but I don't know if they're still as popular and I've never made one myself.

Cheers for the info
I never knew of dms but after a quick research im thinking this could have been an issue as i used pilsner malts in my last batches, although the last 2 i mashed for 90 minutes to be sure and also no sure if its correct but i let it boil for an extra 20 minutes to achieve near boiling temp before my hop schedule. From the start i invested in a worth chiller as i assumed it would make the hop schedule pointless unless cooled instantly!
I have my 2 lagers in my chest freezer with an inkbird so im thinking of trying a batch dat of pale ale that ferments around 18c to 20c. Im thinking of using a box and heat pad. I currently have a bucket full of water to moniter the temp and after a few checks and if its hitting temps ill give it a go. After my lagers it will be pale ale properly fermented!