Lactobacillus plantarum

[smokinghole]

Okay anyone planning on brewing a sour soon? If I were I'd jump on this real fast just to test out. Hell if I can find this stuff in a store I will give it a shot in a small starter to see if I can get it to sour rather quickly.

When looking at one of my brewing microbiology reference books I remembered a table of lactic acid bacteria. On the list it would specify what sugars it would ferment based on the types of sugars they used for species differentiation. At the end of the list was this species in the title. It ferments most all the sugars used for differentiation vs. L. brevis which ferments like 3 of them. So it made me do some research. Apparently this species may have hop resistance just like some specific strains of L. brevis. The hop resistance is greatly attributed to the horA gene which basically gives them a stronger cell wall to withstand the hop acids (paraphrasing).

Anyhow I found a cheap source of the culture potentially, well cheap compared to a culture company. The strain is specifically linked to digestive therapeutics. I, unfortunately, cannot find any research linking this specific strain (Lactobacillus plantarum 299v) to a horA gene in two quick searches today. Anyhow with that said a small 80mL bottle has quite a bit of bacteria and it may provide quite the culture to start a sour beer. Most of the shots are flavored but it also comes in a small plain variety which may be just fine for direct pitches.

http://www.goodbelly.com/?loc=home

For the lazy ones not willing to look through the site. Only objectionable thing in there is a tiny bit of stevia it seems. However at 80mL to even a 5gal batch it's only 0.4% of the volume. So I think the 20bil cfus in the bottle would be worth the little bit of stevia.
http://www.goodbelly.com/probiotic-drink/goodbelly-straightshot/

 

[smokinghole]

I cannot find this stuff at any of the stores that are supposedly a vendor of these products. I will keep looking though. I checked at three stores so far. The two that were local came up with nothing and one near a friends house in Annapolis turned up no product. I did however find a bottle of probiotic that sounds like a listing of microorganisms from a lambic culture the bottle was like $40 though. It had like 20 kinds of lactic acid bacteria and various yeasts including brett and Kluyveromyces.

 

[nofootbreak]

I saw some of this at the store yesterday. If my current BW goes well, I will plan on rebrewing it. Ill make a starter with some of this stuff and see if the starter develops well and possibly do a split 10g batch.

 

[LiquidArtisan]

Could you use the pill form from the drug store?

Maybe crush it up & make a small starter?

 

[smokinghole]

I haven't found a pill where I know exactly what it contains. I am just looking to get a lactobacillus strain and have found many different probiotics just not the one I'm looking for. I struck out at another store yesterday but they do sell spelt for half what the other store I used to buy it from. So it wasn't a waste of a trip.

 

[smokinghole]

Well I finally got some of this stuff. I had to go to a Whole Foods to get it. I couldn't get the straight shot flavorless version so I opted for mango and a coconut water version. I haven't tried any yet, but if I can find my malt extract I'll make up a small amount and put some in there to see what happens. I just wish I had a bunch of sterile tubes that I could just decant some off the quart carton into little single serve vials.

 

[smokinghole]

Little update. I made up a 1.040 malt extract wort and added some of a 80ml serving to the pint of wort. The pH was like 5.5 at the start and fermented down to 2.98 pH in a weeks time. It has a nice clean lactic acid flavor and is pretty sour. I did not bother checking gravity at this point, I was more interested in the pH drop. There were no visible signs of fermentation other than a microbial haze in the jar. I kept it at room temp too rather than 90f. I cant wait to use this on a beer. I will be doing a test on it with hopped wort this week to see if its hop tolerant.

 

[gregkeller]

I've got a whole foods on my way home from work, maybe i'll get some and see if i can try it out. I'm gonna brew a BW next weekend most likely, so maybe i'll pitch this along with my lacto d. strain i had been planning on using.

 

[gregkeller]

Does this strain produce alcohol? It seems as if there is conflicting info out there on what strains produce alcohol. I've read that the whit labs strain does and then in another spot that it does not. As well as reading the same thing about the wyeast strain.

I'm torn over how to go about this because if its not producing alcohol and just eating the sugars then pitching it before the yeast it's gonna eat through most of the sugars as I'm trying to get the beer sour enough. So do I bump up the gravity so? Seems like a pretty darn tough beer to get right.

I also wonder if different strains/species have different flavors like the various Brett species. Would a multi species lacto Berliner be more complex than a single strain?

 

[smokinghole]

It can produce alcohol and lactic acid. What causes on or the other I don't really know. I would guess that flavor difference between strains would depend on other organic compounds produced by the bacterium. I have found a source saying this species can produce exopolysaccharide complex (ropiness) but I don't know if that's true for this specific strain.

So for a berliner it might be a good way to have a controlled sour mash but possibly not the primary fermentation depending on the rope development. If you developed rope in the fermentor you'd probably have to add brett. Then again this bacterium might break down its own exopolysaccharide over time. Too many questions with not enough answers at the moment.

 

[smokinghole]

Little update. I spiked the already going culture with some wort from a saison I brewed recently. The saison was around 20ibu and it was about a half and half of unhopped left over sour wort and fresh hopped wort effectively making the overall bitterness 10ibus. The pH went from 3.0 to 2.6. Today I did a fresh test with some hopped wort at nearly 40ibus and starting at 4.8ph. I will be checking it again this weekend to see if/how fast it sours.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Subscribed. Keep the updates coming.

 

[smokinghole]

Well my house is far from a lab I'm used to in college, but the hopped portion went from about 4.8pH to 3.8pH in three days. I haven't checked it since Monday but plan on it sometime this weekend. It has a banana and pineapple aroma. There's a possiblity there's some yeast in there but I am still confident that the bacteria is hop resistant because at the cell counts likely from any yeast it would have taken much longer for yeast to lower the pH that quickly.

 

[smokinghole]

Had the pH meter out testing my saison and figured I would check this quick as well. I think the hops certainly inhibited the bacteria, but did not stop the souring. Today when I checked it was sitting at 3.5 which is sour but is tough to taste the acid through the hops.

 

[DrKnow]

I know this is an old thread but did this go anywhere?

 

[smokinghole]

I stopped playing with it on its own. I throw it in beers from time to time for a slight lactic twang along with the primary yeast. However if I want sour I just go with a full on mixed bag of lambic bottle yeast/bacteria that I have used in a few beers and repitched from.

 

[kchomebrew]

Lacto P is a facultative heterofermentative lactobacilli microorganism. Meaning that the organism takes carbon from sugars and converts to alcohol or lactic acid. However, if O2 is completely purged you should expect it to act more on the homofermentative spectrum of things (no ethanol production). When 02 is present, you'll get some ethanol and acetic acid production. Probably more acetic acid than anything....which you likely want to avoid. I use Lacto P and find the tartness to be a lot smoother in taste than other strains I've tinkered with. However, if you want something a bit more bracing and tart in flavor, you might consider other strains like brevis. That said, lacto P is a workhorse. I have a starter from good belly probiotic shots that went from 4.5ph (starter had lactic acid added to prevent any other microbes from taking hold) to 3.5pH and in less than 24hrs at 90F. Usually finishes at 3.2pH in 48hrs. No bubbles/krausen or CO2 production that you can see (I purge with CO2 before pitching the lacto and putting the airlock in place). However, you can see the L.Plantarum growth on the bottom of the flask growing into about a 1 to 2 in. thick white mass. Very noticeable.

 

[SanPancho]

However, you can see the L.Plantarum growth on the bottom of the flask growing into about a 1 to 2 in. thick white mass. Very noticeable.

how big is this starter you're using? i never seem to get any real acidity out of any of the lactics i've used in anything less than a week. i no longer preacidify, but it still takes a week or more to get down to low 3s at 85F. i would love to be able to get this down to a few days' time.

 

[kchomebrew]

Approx 60million cells pitched in the starter. Basically 4 good belly probiotic shots. Want to make sure I have double that Amt by the time I pitch into the fermenter.

 

[kchomebrew]

Starter is around 1800ml and then the probiotic shots bring it close to 2000ml

 

[kchomebrew]

Here's what I'm talking about when I mean you can see the growth View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1455239066.992054.jpg

 

[SanPancho]

got it. that's a big starter, but i've been using the probiotic pills with plantarum and rhamnosus, they claim 5 and 10 billion cells per pill.....! so i cant imagine why they shouldnt go crazy and sour quickly if they are even close to be accurate on their cell counts.

maybe since they are dry i need to rehydrate them? i dont put any salts in the mash, and we have pretty clean and low alkalinity water.

im stumped. i keep hearing about folks getting down to the 3s in 24 hours and its making me crazy. WTF.

 

[kchomebrew]

got it. that's a big starter, but i've been using the probiotic pills with plantarum and rhamnosus, they claim 5 and 10 billion cells per pill.....! so i cant imagine why they shouldnt go crazy and sour quickly if they are even close to be accurate on their cell counts.



maybe since they are dry i need to rehydrate them? i dont put any salts in the mash, and we have pretty clean and low alkalinity water.



im stumped. i keep hearing about folks getting down to the 3s in 24 hours and its making me crazy. WTF.

No clue never used pills. I use good belly shots and have also cultured lacto from grains and always get good sourness and at the most takes 4 days to get to at least 3.5. Goodblly plantarum always gets to 3.2 by 48 hrs for me. No special tricks.

 

[kchomebrew]

As an FYI lacto from grains always has a tart apple flavor in my opinion. Plantarum is very "smooth" of that can be used to describe tartness

 

[SanPancho]

maybe i should go with the refrigerated live cultures like the good belly. maybe the dry pills dont really make it through the deyrdrating/rehydrating process very well.

 

[505-Brewer]

maybe i should go with the refrigerated live cultures like the good belly. maybe the dry pills dont really make it through the deyrdrating/rehydrating process very well.

I purchased pills from Amazon and the starter only got to pH 3.8 or so. I never used the starter in a beer. Lacto from grains I have gotten anywhere from pH 3.3-3.6. Key is to not use any hops in the wort and just use time to control the pH.
E.g. Starter that reached 3.3 only got to 3.9 w 7-8 ibus in the wort. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1455485859.869654.jpg

But what about my outer bowls?

 

[SanPancho]

i dont even bother hopping the mash. i just wait until its soured and then go back into the kettle to boil my sour wort with hops.

 

[505-Brewer]

i dont even bother hopping the mash. i just wait until its soured and then go back into the kettle to boil my sour wort with hops.

I boil wort (where my ibus come from if I add hops), cool then sour the wort in a carboy. I dont boil to kill off the bugs.

 

[kchomebrew]

So just as a final follow up - I brewed a saison this weekend and pulled off 5 gallons after 30min. of boiling (no hop additions) and pitched a lacto p starter. A word on hop additions, I always keep those under 5 IBUs. I don't really notice when it's 5 IBUs vs. no hop additions anyway. This particular batch I didn't add any hops. It'll be very dry from the saison yeast I'll add. I also intend to add some kumquats in the secondary. As such, I doubt any hop profile under 5 IBUs would be noticeable....so I didn't see a need to add any. Held the carboy at around 80F and took pH readings, as follows:

- 2/13/16 5:00pm - 4.5 initial pH reading (added lactic acid to bring down pH to help with head retention on a sour beer)
-2/13/16 10pm - 4.17 pH
- 2/14/16 11am - 3.75pH
- 2/14/16 8pm - 3.60 pH and then pitched my saison strain....
- 2/15/16 7am - 3.50 pH with sacc. strain fermentation starting

Anyway, I have no doubt that this will work itself down to the 3.2 to 3.4 range. Once the saison yeast begins producing alcohol, generally the lacto p activity will cease. So I always pitch sacc. strains around 3.6 -3.5 pH

I don't kettle sour, btw. If I want a hop profile, I will usually dry hop and find that to be sufficient.

 

[505-Brewer]

So just as a final follow up - I brewed a saison this weekend and pulled off 5 gallons after 30min. of boiling (no hop additions) and pitched a lacto p starter. A word on hop additions, I always keep those under 5 IBUs. I don't really notice when it's 5 IBUs vs. no hop additions anyway. This particular batch I didn't add any hops. It'll be very dry from the saison yeast I'll add. I also intend to add some kumquats in the secondary. As such, I doubt any hop profile under 5 IBUs would be noticeable....so I didn't see a need to add any. Held the carboy at around 80F and took pH readings, as follows:



- 2/13/16 5:00pm - 4.5 initial pH reading (added lactic acid to bring down pH to help with head retention on a sour beer)

-2/13/16 10pm - 4.17 pH

- 2/14/16 11am - 3.75pH

- 2/14/16 8pm - 3.60 pH and then pitched my saison strain....

- 2/15/16 7am - 3.50 pH with sacc. strain fermentation starting



Anyway, I have no doubt that this will work itself down to the 3.2 to 3.4 range. Once the saison yeast begins producing alcohol, generally the lacto p activity will cease. So I always pitch sacc. strains around 3.6 -3.5 pH



I don't kettle sour, btw. If I want a hop profile, I will usually dry hop and find that to be sufficient.

Sounds delicious. Ive heard others claim 10 ibus is still ok to get to pH 3.5. I think I'll try some good belly or a commercial source as the lacto p tummy pills from Amazon never really soured even the starter.

Are you doing anything for temperature control? Pitching warm and holding or just letting it cool naturally?