Laaglander
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PseudoChef
Well-Known Member
I have never read that it was a superior product. All the accounts that I was familiar with was that it had horrendous attenuation issues.
Munton's and Briess have been ranked quite highly, however. You may want to try those.
Munton's and Briess have been ranked quite highly, however. You may want to try those.
If by attenuation issues you mean that it finishes high gravity, full of dextrins and malty, then you are RIGHT, but did not answer my question. Dextrose does not have any attenuation issues at all, is cheap, and widely available.
boo boo
Well-Known Member
Aspera said:
To answer your question... more people thought it wasn't superior and complained about the low attenuation so some LHBS don't carry it. It probably wasn't selling too well due to the publicity (right or wrong) it got.
Aspera said:
I'm hoping that I'm misreading this reply as curt. He did after all reply in 4 minutes and told you what he knows.
Unfortunately, "Laaglanders" and "Stalled Fermentation" became synonymous.
For the experienced brewer this wasn't a problem who knew the fermentation characteristics and planned a recipe accordingly.
For the uninformed however, having a beer that was expected to finish out at 1.010 stall at 1.023 caused a lot of heartache...not to mention numerous discussions about adding Beano to the fermenter.
My guess is too many LHBS's decided it wasn't worth the "emergency" phone calls they were getting when the wort pooped out at 65%.
For the experienced brewer this wasn't a problem who knew the fermentation characteristics and planned a recipe accordingly.
For the uninformed however, having a beer that was expected to finish out at 1.010 stall at 1.023 caused a lot of heartache...not to mention numerous discussions about adding Beano to the fermenter.
My guess is too many LHBS's decided it wasn't worth the "emergency" phone calls they were getting when the wort pooped out at 65%.
Calling Laaglander an "inferior" product isn't fair, especially if you haven't personally used it. I will say, though, that I've answered many a question about someone's stalled fermentation and the answer was "yes, I used Laaglander - why?" Its relative unfermentability (around 60% attenuation, best case IIRC) just had to be accounted for in recipe formulation.
Now, as to why it doesn't seem to be available anymore, that's a good question. Maybe it's lack of demand. Maybe the weak U.S. dollar makes it less profitable to export it over here (it's a European product, IIRC).
In any case, there are plenty of other good extract brands still available, but if you liked that it left a lot of body, you may have to play around with yeasts that are less attenuative and/or adding some maltodextrine to the boil.
Now, as to why it doesn't seem to be available anymore, that's a good question. Maybe it's lack of demand. Maybe the weak U.S. dollar makes it less profitable to export it over here (it's a European product, IIRC).
In any case, there are plenty of other good extract brands still available, but if you liked that it left a lot of body, you may have to play around with yeasts that are less attenuative and/or adding some maltodextrine to the boil.
jdoiv
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure I saw some at my LHBS not too long ago. I went in to get a bag of DME for starters and almost grabbed a bag of it by mistake.
I just went to their website and they don't have it listed. I'll be in there on Saturday and will try to remember to look for it.
I just went to their website and they don't have it listed. I'll be in there on Saturday and will try to remember to look for it.
Gedvondur
Well-Known Member
When I was searching for bulk DME, I ran across references to Laaglander and have seen it specified in the occasional recipe. However, I was never able to find anyone that even sold it anymore, let alone in bulk.
I get the impression that the company is no longer in business, but I cannot find any concrete evidence of that fact. Most companies selling Laaglander seem to be selling old kits or remaining stock.
There is also quite a lot of commentary about the fermentability of Laaglander, but I have never tried it myself.
Gedvondur
I get the impression that the company is no longer in business, but I cannot find any concrete evidence of that fact. Most companies selling Laaglander seem to be selling old kits or remaining stock.
There is also quite a lot of commentary about the fermentability of Laaglander, but I have never tried it myself.
Gedvondur
bigben said:
Unfortunately the same thing happened to IREKS concentrate, another favorite of mine. I suspect that what the market demands has little to do with the needs of the hobbiest/craftbrewer. I have used many DME's from many makers. Laaglander worked very very well for me and I will miss the fine brews that it helped produce.
kinison_fan
Well-Known Member
Interesting.
When I started out brewing 15 years ago, Laaglander had a pre-hopped LME Bock. I can't tell you how many times I made that kit.
When I started up brewing again several months back, I did casually look for the can on the shelves, but did not ask for it specifically.
With the can kits, I never took hydrometer readings, so who knows what the starting and ending gravities were-the beer tasted fine.
When I started out brewing 15 years ago, Laaglander had a pre-hopped LME Bock. I can't tell you how many times I made that kit.
When I started up brewing again several months back, I did casually look for the can on the shelves, but did not ask for it specifically.
With the can kits, I never took hydrometer readings, so who knows what the starting and ending gravities were-the beer tasted fine.
Evan!
Well-Known Member
I have used laaglander, and I will say that it is (was?) an inferior product. It screwed up two whole batches of wheat beer because I used it to prime with. It also caused my double IPA to finish at 1.038. Good riddance, I say.
Beerthoven
Well-Known Member
Evan! said:
Sounds to me like the mistake was yours, and the Laaglander did exactly what it was designed to do.
Lesson: Know your ingredients.
Beerthoven said:
PWNED!
Ecnerwal
Well-Known Member
A lot of ignorant hatred of a product for being exactly what it's supposed to be here.
If you want a malt that ferments out to make maximum alcohol thin beer, there are plenty available. Use one.
If you want a beer with some body to it made from DME, Laaglander is the ticket - it's not stuck, it's done, and doing exactly what it's supposed to do. I'm looking at the last few bags from my 50lb (or was it 25 Kilo?) sack, and not thrilled to find that nobody in the US seems to carry it now, given that nobody else makes anything like it.
If anybody knows of a source, I'd like to hear about it. I don't really want to get into all-grain - I have little enough time to brew now, and I'm an engineer, so if I get into all-grain it'll be piles of money and time spent on a RIMS, and even less time to brew. I'm staying away from that slippery slope for a perfectly good reason.
If you want a malt that ferments out to make maximum alcohol thin beer, there are plenty available. Use one.
If you want a beer with some body to it made from DME, Laaglander is the ticket - it's not stuck, it's done, and doing exactly what it's supposed to do. I'm looking at the last few bags from my 50lb (or was it 25 Kilo?) sack, and not thrilled to find that nobody in the US seems to carry it now, given that nobody else makes anything like it.
If anybody knows of a source, I'd like to hear about it. I don't really want to get into all-grain - I have little enough time to brew now, and I'm an engineer, so if I get into all-grain it'll be piles of money and time spent on a RIMS, and even less time to brew. I'm staying away from that slippery slope for a perfectly good reason.
Evan!
Well-Known Member
Poor fermentability is not "what it's supposed to do". I threw away all my laaglander awhile ago because every time I used it, it didn't ferment to anywhere near the "industry standards" for DME fermentability.
That's not "ignorant hatred", that's an honest review of a product that underperformed.
Now, if it had said on the packaging "you will get 60% attenuation when using this product", then I'd have no leg to stand on here. But I stand by my previous review. I have firsthand experience of it being underfermentable. That's not the same as a "stalled fermentation". The yeast simply had no more fermentable sugar to eat---I know this, because when I bottled the beers that had stopped with ridiculously high FG (1.094 -> 1.037, or 58% attenuation, in one instance), I primed with DEXTROSE, and they all carbonated perfectly, so I know the yeast wasn't stalled. They were just way to sweet and not enjoyable. And this underfermentability only happened with laaglander DME. Fermenting out all the available short-chain carbohydrates is not the only thing that's important. If I end up with a 1.030 FG on a pale ale, then the beer is not to style (and probably not very good to drink because of the cloying sugar). You can talk all you want about dextrins and a big body and smooth mouthfeel, but the fact is that absolute FG is important to drinkability and quality.
So you tell me: what's ignorant about my review?
Ecnerwal
Well-Known Member
The fact that Laaglander is made, specifically, to be a product with many unfermentable sugars, not to meet some "industry standard" you appear to have invented (bet you can't find an actual standard...). Know your ingredients.
It works very well for particular styles of beer. If you don't like those beer styles, not using it would be the correct, informed choice of an educated homebrewer. Being irritated that it doesn't act like Munton's or Breiss, is ignorant, because it is not supposed to.
I'm not in the least surprised that your brew had a high FG, sweetness, and plenty of happy yeast to carbonate it - because those are all aspects of Laaglander doing EXACTLY what it IS supposed to do. Expecting it to do something else is "ignorant", much like it would be "ignorant" to make an IPA and then complain that it's awfully bitter. Which is why I don't make (or order) IPA...
Do you need the packaging of a dark malt to specify "will not make pale beer"? No more do you need the packaging of Laaglander to "warn" you about it's fermentability. You are expected to know what you want and ask for that, or to ask for informed help if you don't know what you want.
Expecting all DME to be exactly the same - that's ignorant. And boring. But apparently ignorant and boring is all the "industry" can handle at the moment, judging by the lack of Laaglander on the shelves.
It works very well for particular styles of beer. If you don't like those beer styles, not using it would be the correct, informed choice of an educated homebrewer. Being irritated that it doesn't act like Munton's or Breiss, is ignorant, because it is not supposed to.
I'm not in the least surprised that your brew had a high FG, sweetness, and plenty of happy yeast to carbonate it - because those are all aspects of Laaglander doing EXACTLY what it IS supposed to do. Expecting it to do something else is "ignorant", much like it would be "ignorant" to make an IPA and then complain that it's awfully bitter. Which is why I don't make (or order) IPA...
Do you need the packaging of a dark malt to specify "will not make pale beer"? No more do you need the packaging of Laaglander to "warn" you about it's fermentability. You are expected to know what you want and ask for that, or to ask for informed help if you don't know what you want.
Expecting all DME to be exactly the same - that's ignorant. And boring. But apparently ignorant and boring is all the "industry" can handle at the moment, judging by the lack of Laaglander on the shelves.
This should be fun.
I think the market has said, "Indeed, yes! Provide that information."
And now we can agree that that is why it can't be found.
Consumers fault or manufacturer's fault. I hate marketing but clearly we agree that it might have helped here.
Evan!
Well-Known Member
I know my ingredients, and nowhere on their website, the packaging, nor the place I bought it from said anything about it being a product made specifically with way too few fermentable sugars.
I don't expect all DME to be exactly the same, but I do expect someone to tell me when a product has only 50% short-chain dextrins. And if you think that using dark malt on a light beer is the same as using a DME with loads of unfermentable sugars is the same thing, I've gotta call BS. Allow me to explain: I can see with mine own two eyes when a package says "DARK MALT EXTRACT". Even if it didn't say that, I would be able to tell from the VISUAL COLOR of the malt.
On the other hand, there is nothing that remotely resembles these kinds of visual clues with regards to laaglander's fermentability. Nowhere!
Please locate the documentation that shows that it is specifically designed to have nearly 50% unfermentable sugars, and present it here. I'm curious to see this.
And I'd also love to know what this mystery "style" is that requires 58% attenuation.
I don't expect all DME to be exactly the same, but I do expect someone to tell me when a product has only 50% short-chain dextrins. And if you think that using dark malt on a light beer is the same as using a DME with loads of unfermentable sugars is the same thing, I've gotta call BS. Allow me to explain: I can see with mine own two eyes when a package says "DARK MALT EXTRACT". Even if it didn't say that, I would be able to tell from the VISUAL COLOR of the malt.
On the other hand, there is nothing that remotely resembles these kinds of visual clues with regards to laaglander's fermentability. Nowhere!
Please locate the documentation that shows that it is specifically designed to have nearly 50% unfermentable sugars, and present it here. I'm curious to see this.
And I'd also love to know what this mystery "style" is that requires 58% attenuation.
Big10Seaner
Well-Known Member
I have found it works great for priming myself. I have done 2 IPAs then primed with laaglander and it seemed like perfect carbonation.
Here's somewhat of an insight on the subject:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter3-5.html
Here's somewhat of an insight on the subject:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter3-5.html
Ecnerwal
Well-Known Member
Porters and stouts, done the way I like them - ie, more in line with Samuel Smith's oatmeal stout (but no oatmeal, since I'm extract brewing) than, say, guiness. This one was good.
2.9lbs chocolate malt
10 lbs Laaglander DME
SG 1.090
FG 1.050
AA 42.6%
1 oz Fuggles pellets
1/2 oz or so homegrown
1/4 oz plug Tettnanger 2hours
1/12 oz plug Tettnanger 1 hr
1/12 oz plug Tettnanger 30 min
1/12 oz plug Tettnanger 5 min
Dry ale yeast - perhaps Fosters, I don't recall and didn't write it down.
Primaried for a week or so, in secondary for about 3 months (not in any hurry, bulk aging is good)
I like a beer you can practically eat with a fork.
If I had wanted "more fermentable" DME, I could have purchased a bag of Breiss for considerably less than the imported Laaglander. How you'd randomly pick Laaglander for unsuitable styles is beyond me, given the vast number or malts competing to be the thinnest and most fermentable.
2.9lbs chocolate malt
10 lbs Laaglander DME
SG 1.090
FG 1.050
AA 42.6%
1 oz Fuggles pellets
1/2 oz or so homegrown
1/4 oz plug Tettnanger 2hours
1/12 oz plug Tettnanger 1 hr
1/12 oz plug Tettnanger 30 min
1/12 oz plug Tettnanger 5 min
Dry ale yeast - perhaps Fosters, I don't recall and didn't write it down.
Primaried for a week or so, in secondary for about 3 months (not in any hurry, bulk aging is good)
I like a beer you can practically eat with a fork.
If I had wanted "more fermentable" DME, I could have purchased a bag of Breiss for considerably less than the imported Laaglander. How you'd randomly pick Laaglander for unsuitable styles is beyond me, given the vast number or malts competing to be the thinnest and most fermentable.
I used portions of Laaglanders in my extracts back in the day...but I knew the characteristics of the product, having stumbled across multiple "stalled fermentation" threads while reading up on brewing. It made a great addition for Bitters, Milds and even malty APA's.
Most beginning brewers start out doing extract/steeping grains. Most beginning brewers shouldn't be expected to know that seemingly identical products (based on appearance and labeling) are radically different in their fermentation profiles.
I've heard it several times at the LHBS (back when Laag's was still sold)...the conversation went something like this:
Customer - "I want to do a pale ale...should I use LME or DME?"
LHBS - "Go with DME, it will give you a lighter colored beer..."
Customer - "Great...what kind do you have...?"
LHBS - "We have Briess, Muntons and Laaglanders..."
Customer - "What's the difference?"
LHBS - "Laaglanders is about 15% cheaper."
Customer - "Excellent."
As you said:
Maybe Laaglander had the same attitude that the customer "should know better".
Well...the customer didn't know better...nor did the vast majority of LHBS clerks. Customers expectations weren't met. Demand for the product dried up. Shop owners opted to adjust their products.
By the way, I just rescanned all of the posts and really don't see a "lot of ignorant hatred" you mentioned.
Most peoples first 1 or 2 posts are usually a bit more friendly.
I'm just sayin
The Soft Underbelly
Well-Known Member
bev art on the south side of Chicago show it on their web site.... don't know if it's in stock and I've never shopped there, but it might be worth a shot...
Beverage Art Brewer & Winemaker Supply : Unhopped Extracts (Light, Amber, and Dark)
Ecnerwal
Well-Known Member
I've also now found, though not yet contacted/verified, this place in New Jersey, though at first I though they were in Canada...
Laaglander Plain Light
Laaglander Plain Light
Freakin' sweet. They still have it! No offense, but *screw* "industry standards". I am so glad to find a source and will throw plenty of other business to the company that has the malts I like. Incidentally, I have had people tell me that 6-row was not available because it did not meet peoples expectations and wasn't highly demanded
