Kottbusser - A style deserving of revival!

[Barley_Bob]

I'm on board.

 

[unionrdr]

Cool. I'll plan on brewing it in a couple weeks. Just started some research into this outlawed German style. I also found a reference to raw oats being added & altbier yeast used.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Cool. I'll plan on brewing it in a couple weeks. Just started some research into this outlawed German style. I also found a reference to raw oats being added & altbier yeast used.

Radical brewing lists it as a "cousin" to the altbier. My LHBS carries White Labs, which leaves 029 and 036 as my options (short of ordering online). 036 is the option I would choose for a true altbier, but White Labs lists 029 as an excellent choice too. I have 029 on hand, so that's what I'm going with. I imagine Wyeast and others would carry additional options?

I have rolled oats on hand, so, again, that's what I'm planning to use. Any expected difference between rolled and raw oats?

 

[unionrdr]

I'm thinking the rolled/flaked oats would work better. WL029 Kolsch yeast is the steadiest fermenter I ever used. But they did say an altbier yeast was traditional. So if you use the WL029, I'll use the Altbier yeast. I have a whole crapton of gel packs in the freezer if I need to keep it cooler.

 

[uncleleon]

Currently drinking mine. Friends love it. I think it came out too sweet and had a lot of body so I checked the FG, 1.009

I used all honey instead of molasses and s05. It has some hallertau floral and spice with some honey floral aroma and taste. I think it needs more conditioning. Probably needs to slight sulphury that one would get from German ale yeast. I'll post a picture when drops clearer.

 

[unionrdr]

The sulphur smell/taste should dissipate by the time the beer carbs & conditions. Be sure you don't use a but a little bit of the honey & molasses. As I currently understand it, it's a minor flavor addition. Hard to find much historical info on it, as it was outlawed in Germany by the damn purity law.

 

[myerstyson]

Putting the Zymurgy partial mash version of the Kottbusser on my 2015 list.

 

[unionrdr]

Here's some stuff I found this morning;
http://boozybeggar.blogspot.com/2013/07/fermented-18-off-color-brewings-scurry.html
Can't find zymurgy issue with recipe?
Brewtoad AG recipe. Can sub maybe 3lbs of pilsner or extra light DME for part of the 5.4lbs of pilsen malt in the mash for a PM brew;
https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/kottbusser But with the flaked oats, maybe add some rice hulls to the mash? Reading ratebeer posting, instead of using spalt hops like brewtoads version, it says tettnang & hallertau hops. But the Against The Grain version is slightly hazy yellow golden color. Others have it as a red ale with a crisp finish. Descriptions seem to indicate a German grain giving a bit of red color. Carared? gotta look at my dampfbier recipe for that grain, I forget. so WL029 Kolsch yeast is appropo. But being an early offshoot of altbier, an altbier yeast would also be considered proper. Not a lot of distinct info out there. I see now that this is going to be a quest. I'll keep looking...must...have...beer...analyze recipe...error?...analyze...analyze...error...
*OK, well, here's a review of the Grimm bro's "snow drop" kottbusser; http://www.fermentedlychallenged.com/2011/12/taste-of-grimm-brothers-brewhouse.html
So in all, I'm leaning toward the reddish ale version, which seems to be more authentic. A bit crisp on the back with a bitter breadiness. I've found that when mashing German malts for the dampfbier that this "breadiness" is more like toasted good bread with a touch of nuttiness. This is inherent in German malts, it seems. I may have to work up a hybrid of Brewsmith & Brewtoad versions with German malts.

 

[unionrdr]

OK, I'm working up the recipe in BS2 from a combination of Beersmith's & Brewtoad's recipes. Beersmith lists the style as a Kolsch. But using that style definition I can't get an OG of 1.050 with the amounts of ingredients listed. I switched to the "specialty beer" classification Brewtoad uses & the numbers fall right into line. I have to agree with this, as it isn't a "Kolsch" merely because of the yeast used in both recipes (WL029). So I guess I'll be using the Kolsch yeast, as both recipes list it. Here's a page from Barkley Perkins on Kotbusser; http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/07/kotbusser-bier-recipe.html Are we to assume the "raw sugar" to be something like demerara-raw cane sugar? So far, the recipe looks like this under the Specialty Beer style classification. Partial Mash, BIAB medium bodied, Ale, single stage;
Bohemian pilsner malt- 3lbs
Pilsner LME- 3lbs
German wheat malt- 3lbs
Flaked oats- 12ozs
Acidulated malt- 4ozs
Rice hulls- 8ozs
Honey- 1.3ozs
Molasses- 1/2oz
Magnum hops- .65oz, 60 minutes
Hallertauer hops- .6oz, 3 minutes
Czech Saaz hops- 1oz, 3 minutes
Whirlfloc- 1/2 tablet, 15 minutes
Yeast, WL029 German Kolsch, 1 vial
RANGE ESTIMATED
OG 1.030-1.110 1.060
FG 1.015
IBU 5.0-70.0 20.4
Color 5-50 SRM 4.6
ABV 2.5-12% 6.0%
Carbonation level 2.3 VCo2
What do y'all think so far? I think it needs a bit more reddish color. Hard to keep IBU's in the listed 14.3 range without going all the way to the bottom of the IBU graph? Besides, I don't think 20.4 IBU's is too much.
* Here's a map of Germany that shows the city of Cottbus being near the Western border of Poland near the NW border of the Czech Republic; http://itouchmap.com/?r=b&e=y&p=51.291667,13.523889:0:0:Cottbuser%20Bahnhof,%20Germany

 

[uncleleon]

Here's mine.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1419724935.740303.jpg

 

[uncleleon]

New style ! German blonde ale / hybrid

 

[unionrdr]

^ What does it smell/taste like? I'm still a bit confused by the various color descriptions. Not to mention, raw sugar was used, then molasses began to be listed as well. Since some texts say the beer had a reddish hue to it, I upped the molasses by .1oz to .6oz. Then added 4ozs carared for a hair more color to 5.2 SRM.

 

[uncleleon]

My particular beer tastes too me like an American cream ale meets a kolsch with too much wheat.

I did all honey no molasses and all hallertau. So it's bit off from the other recipes

 

[Barley_Bob]

OK, I'm working up the recipe in BS2 from a combination of Beersmith's & Brewtoad's recipes. Beersmith lists the style as a Kolsch. But using that style definition I can't get an OG of 1.050 with the amounts of ingredients listed. I switched to the "specialty beer" classification Brewtoad uses & the numbers fall right into line. I have to agree with this, as it isn't a "Kolsch" merely because of the yeast used in both recipes (WL029). So I guess I'll be using the Kolsch yeast, as both recipes list it. Here's a page from Barkley Perkins on Kotbusser; http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/07/kotbusser-bier-recipe.html Are we to assume the "raw sugar" to be something like demerara-raw cane sugar? So far, the recipe looks like this under the Specialty Beer style classification. Partial Mash, BIAB medium bodied, Ale, single stage;
Bohemian pilsner malt- 3lbs
Pilsner LME- 3lbs
German wheat malt- 3lbs
Flaked oats- 12ozs
Acidulated malt- 4ozs
Rice hulls- 8ozs
Honey- 1.3ozs
Molasses- 1/2oz
Magnum hops- .65oz, 60 minutes
Hallertauer hops- .6oz, 3 minutes
Czech Saaz hops- 1oz, 3 minutes
Whirlfloc- 1/2 tablet, 15 minutes
Yeast, WL029 German Kolsch, 1 vial
RANGE ESTIMATED
OG 1.030-1.110 1.060
FG 1.015
IBU 5.0-70.0 20.4
Color 5-50 SRM 4.6
ABV 2.5-12% 6.0%
Carbonation level 2.3 VCo2
What do y'all think so far? I think it needs a bit more reddish color. Hard to keep IBU's in the listed 14.3 range without going all the way to the bottom of the IBU graph? Besides, I don't think 20.4 IBU's is too much.
* Here's a map of Germany that shows the city of Cottbus being near the Western border of Poland near the NW border of the Czech Republic; http://itouchmap.com/?r=b&e=y&p=51.291667,13.523889:0:0:Cottbuser%20Bahnhof,%20Germany

I think it looks good. The honey and molasses are low compared to the sample recipes I've seen, but there's nothing else that jumps off the page to me. I like the idea of a slightly reddish hue, and I don't think it would be a stretch to use a little crystal for that. I also like your hops selection. Looks really solid.

I realize I should just post my working draft. I'm planning to sub out wheat for some rye (not 1:1) and on going a little higher on IBUs. Those are the highlights. I'll add the whole thing tomorrow. I think dkennedy is planning to brew his closer to the recipe, which would be a good reference for us.

Here's mine.

Kottbusser!

 

[unionrdr]

Adding the .1oz molasses to make .6oz & the 4oz carared will give it a bit more of a ruddy amber/orange hue. I worked it up in BS2 from the Beersmith recipe & Brewtoad's as a sort of average I then tweaked. From what I've been reading so far, this is as close as I can get for the moment, as there is no "original" recipe from centuries ago.

 

[Barley_Bob]

...there is no "original" recipe from centuries ago.

Exactly. Like I said, I think it looks good, and I follow your thought process. The truth is almost certainly that there were a multitude of varieties of kottbusser, which should give us leeway to experiment. There's not much of a template to follow.

As promised, here's the version I'm planning. Have we heard any reference of rye? No. But I'm interpreting "harvest ale" to mean they mostly just used the grain coming in on wagons. If you were a German farmer, and you grew rye instead of wheat, you'd use rye. If you had extra honey, you'd toss it in. And then you'd compare notes with your neighbor who grew wheat.

Yeast, WL029 German Kolsch, starter used
RANGE ESTIMATED
OG 1.01.060
FG 1.015
IBU 30.64
Color SRM 5.54
BIAB, 75% anticipated efficiency, 90minute mash at 150
Boil: 90min
Final Volume: 5.5gal

Grain:
8lb German Pilsner
2lb Rye Malt
1lb Rolled Oats
2oz Aromatic Malt (in lieu of a decoction mash)

4oz Honey (to secondary)
2oz Light Molasses (to secondary)

Hops:
0.6oz Magnum FWH
1.0oz Spalt 15min
1.0oz Saaz 5min
1.0oz Hallertaur Dry Hop 5days

 

[unionrdr]

Looks like yours will have a bit more reddish color. This seems to be the gist of what my research shows. I'm thinking that more flavor can be had from the honey & molasses in secondary versus primary (ie boil). I'm glad you follow my words, as I've put increasing amounts of time into this one. After getting the Dampfbier so close to German originals, I'm starting to get a feel for for them. Just a start though. I can't wait till we all get some brewed to compare notes.
As far as being a harvest ale, I suppose regional or local variations on interpretations were possible & quite likely. They would of course want their version to stand out in the crowd without being out of style. It is rather odd that no original recipe exists though? If d kennedy's recipe is closer to the original, it could provide a good baseline as you say. Then compare samples of each to see which is the more preferable, or something along those lines?

 

[Barley_Bob]

They would of course want their version to stand out in the crowd without being out of style. It is rather odd that no original recipe exists though? If d kennedy's recipe is closer to the original, it could provide a good baseline as you say. Then compare samples of each to see which is the more preferable, or something along those lines?

I hear ya. I just can't imagine it was universally those 3 malts (pilsener, wheat, and oats). Similarly, if I make any other style of beer, I can use a huge variety of grains without being out of style. Even in its time period, there would have been variety within the style, and, had it not become illegal, the style would have evolved over time. In my head, at least, that's what I'm trying to replicate. I don't know if we'll find one that's preferable, but, hopefully, we'll get a good idea of what is possible within the guidelines and within one standard deviation of it. If we turn out 3 great beers, then I'll call it a resounding success. If one is wildly different, we'll have learned something else. Make any sense outside of my head?

 

[dkennedy]

My plan is to brew Mosher's recipe, with Canadian 2 row in place of the Pilsner malt (still burning through a sack). Plan to add the honey and molasses on transfer to the keg for lagering.

 

[dkennedy]

That said- I could see a reddish ale working very well, and a different malt bill could be interesting (Vienna?).

 

[unionrdr]

OK, reply, take two. Internet went out earlier, back & off again. Now back on again. Sheez. I think as long as we're sticking to the basic recipe with only minor variations, they'll be to style as much as is currently possible. When I get paid again, I'll order the ingredients. That'll give me two fermenters full, what with the ESB kit I have laying in wait. Then when all is said & done, maybe we can trade beers between each other for comparisons? I'd like to be able to do this before making inclusions to book 2 of my home brewing books. All credits will be given of course. I'll add a dissertation on local/regional variances in regard to the variances in recipes. So as to allow the reader to draw their own conclusions? How's that sound to y'all?

 

[Barley_Bob]

OK, reply, take two. Internet went out earlier, back & off again. Now back on again. Sheez. I think as long as we're sticking to the basic recipe with only minor variations, they'll be to style as much as is currently possible. When I get paid again, I'll order the ingredients. That'll give me two fermenters full, what with the ESB kit I have laying in wait. Then when all is said & done, maybe we can trade beers between each other for comparisons? I'd like to be able to do this before making inclusions to book 2 of my home brewing books. All credits will be given of course. I'll add a dissertation on local/regional variances in regard to the variances in recipes. So as to allow the reader to draw their own conclusions? How's that sound to y'all?

Sounds great to me. Pleasure to work with you.

 

[unionrdr]

I thought that would be the best way to go about it. Besides getting together on preserving/bring back a great old style. Better than just tossing a bunch of stuff together & calling it new. I love trying old styles anyway. But this will give some bit of immortality to contributors that's always kinda cool in it's own way.

 

[unionrdr]

Ordered the ingredients this morning. Added another twenty bucks for 2lbs of PBW, darn near out of that. Wonder how fast Midwest is now that the warehouse thing is squared away?

 

[Barley_Bob]

I dunno, man. I'm still waiting on my pilsner through LD Carlson. The holidays are, apparently, murder on freight. Maybe it'll turn up next week.

 

[myerstyson]

Wonder how fast Midwest is now that the warehouse thing is squared away?

Warehouse thing???

 

[unionrdr]

During last year, they redid their warehouse to combine with Northern Brewer. They're still separate businesses, but share the warehouse.

 

[The10mmKid]

Would a 50degF German lager yeast be out of style for this beer?

'da Kid

 

[fimpster]

Sub'd. Looking forward to following how this goes.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, it is an ale after all. But using WL029 Kolsch yeast, which gives lager-like characteristics, you probably could use a lager yeast. I'm not sure what the original intent of the beer was, having no records of the original from the 16th century surviving to today. Maybe it was intended to be a reddish-amber Kolsch style? Having wheat malt & pilsner malt though, it could also be a corruption of Dampfbier, which uses no wheat, but comes out a similar color & uses hefe yeast. I have the ingredients ordered from Midwest. So it'll be a week or so before it gets brewed up.