Kegging without a gauge?

[whovous]

I'm never sure if I am an idiot or a genius. Probably some of each.

What I definitely am is fairly new to kegging. I bought everything new in hopes of eliminating at least one variable on the problem front. I bought two three-gallon kegs, a five-pound CO2 tank, and a Taprite 742 dual gauge regulator. Things worked reasonably well, but the tank showed empty a bit sooner than I had hoped. I did a ton of purging and wasting of gas, so I can't really say if I had a leak or not.

Anyhow, I got the tank refilled, and now I definitely have a leak. I may have several leaks. Every time I react to one, I seem to find another one. I start poking around in this forum and elsewhere, and it seems like lots of people have these problems lots of times.

It occurs to me that part of the problem is that there are just too many different places in this setup that can leak. The Taprite regulator has all sorts of threaded pieces, and every time you add another thread, you add another potential leak.

Can I solve the problem by simply getting rid of the gauges? Now, there are some obvious problems here, but bear with me. Let's get rid of the entire assembly and replace it with this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0085EVSOU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
If I am reading it right, all it does is step the pressure from my tank down to 150psi. I'd prefer to find something to step it down still further, but this all I have found so far. Next I want to connect this to a gas hose. I have not fully though this through yet, as I am not sure of the connector on the other end, but I am sure it is doable.

The other end of the house would simply terminate with a ball-lock connector. What have I accomplished? I've reduced the potential leak points to the clamps on either end of the hose. What is wrong with this? It has me feeding 150psi to my keg.

So, let's add one more part. I am pretty confident that doing so will not significantly increase my risk of a leak. This is the part: https://govreg.us/shop?olsPage=products/gov-reg-secondary-regulator-draft-dispense

The part can be adjusted to pass anywhere from 4psi to 55 psi. It cannot be adjusted on the fly, like a standard gauge can, but neither is it subject to pressure creep.

This thing is designed for taproom use, and seems to be getting popular in that application. I want to figure out how to use it in a very simple keg setup.

Am I on the right track? Or am I an idiot once again?

 

[day_trippr]

One can live without a high pressure gauge I suppose, but you're still going to want at least a low pressure gauge on the system. I see more pita than gain here.

I think folks might go into these efforts with a negative mind set. And there are big time keggers here that advocate shutting off the cylinder valves between pours. It doesn't have to be like that.

I have three separate gas systems with 7 regulators, 4 manifolds, 5 bulkheads, 21 gas disconnects between them, and none of them leak gas. I've never had a surprise wrt cylinder going empty. They were built methodically and according to Hoyle, and everything was immersion tested save for the actual regulators - which were pretty much hosed down with leak detector fluid.

The importance of testing is huge: there were four different types of leaks in this assembly, destined for one of my three fridges (they're all outfitted similarly). If I had installed this as it was I'd be paying for it to this day. The 6-way manifold in my keezer and all of the plumbing in and out if it was even worse.

Beyond infrastructure, there are the kegs. There is no doubt that cornelius kegs have numerous potential leak points, and if you miss one there goes a tank of gas. My practice is to dunk the top of my kegs in a few inches of water after having done a full Star San purge when the keg is full of CO2. I can say one out of three kegs shows a leak, typically caused by me: I always tear kegs down to clean and sometimes a poppet is cocked in the post or a dip tube o-ring needs some love to seal. But, again, I catch it when it's a small deal and save a tank of gas.

So...my opinion is if you build a gas system properly, test it thoroughly, and always test kegs before filling them, there's no reason to be all paranoid...

Cheers!

 

[FloppyKnockers]

^^^ What this guy said.

 

[Sadu]

+1 on the above, with some extra points.

If you are going to pressurise parts of your system to 30psi with the set and forget for 24 hours carbonation method, those seals need to be a higher quality than if you only pressurise to 12psi.

Secondly, if you get sick of losing whole tanks of gas while diagnosing, get a couple of sodastream bottles and a refill station. Refill your sodastream off the big tank, connect the sodastream to your keg system. If you get a leak, you lose maximum 270g of gas (12oz or whatever that works out to) vs a whole tank. I find this approach preferable because while you can be careful about your connections, it only takes a nick in an o-ring and that's another tank of gas gone. I live in a small town where gas is 2x what you pay in a city so losing a big tank really hurts.

 

[whovous]

What you are all telling me is that if I will just try hard enough, my system won't leak.

For a while.

Until it leaks again.

Why isn't my proposal naturally less prone to leakage, just because it has so many fewer points that can leak? Note that I am really only trying to connect one tank to one keg at a time. I don't make enough beer to warrant a full manifold setup.

 

[Yooper]

How is that system with a gauge better than my system with a gauge? You don't need a high pressure regulator, so you could go simple with a low pressure regulator, and a gasline. That's what I have on my little system in my little kegerator in my cottage.
Like this: https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/economy-norgren-regulator-single-gauge
I've been kegging around 11 years- aside from a leaky keg occasionally (found by spraying star-san on the top when I'm putting the beer in it and pressurizing), I have 0 leaks on three different set ups.

 

[whovous]

Agreed that a one gauge regulator has one less place to leak than does a two gauge regulator, but if I am counting right, it still has two more places to leak than does my zero gauge fantasy. My ideal would be to connect the hose straight to the tank, but I am pretty sure there is no way to do that. Second best is to have little more than a pipe coming off of the CO2 tank. My example above is a pipe that limits outbound pressure to 75psi. I wish I could find one that limited pressure to about 30psi, but either it does not exist or, more likely, I am not smart enough to find one.

I am still holding out the forlorn hope that someone will read this and tell me what else needs to be done to make my idea work.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

My $.02 is that for the money you will be spending on that step down you could buy a good regulator that doesn't leak. Put it on the tank and dunk it upside down in a 5 gallon bucket or sideways in a laundry sink to check for leaks. If you don't want to do that, use a lot of soapy water. If you have to replace or tighten a gauge or fitting put Teflon tape on the threads. Put Teflon tape on all threads. Use good hose clamps, not cheap ones. Regularly replace your Keg O-rings. They are standard sizes and you can get 10 at Menards, Lowes or Home Depot for a couple bucks. Always use Keg Lube on your O-rings (or Plumbers lube).

If soap doesn't work and dunking isn't an option when you are checking for leaks, do it in a methodical manner. Pressure up, only connect one keg, turn off your gas, see if that keg or hose leaks the pressure you put out. Repeat until you find something. If you have a manifold or shut off valves in line, check one line at a time turning all the others off. One at a time, disconnect your keg posts and see if a particular hose leaks.

If you are not going to be using your kegs for a while make sure you are shutting off the gas tank valve. I try to remember to do this every time. If you don't have any leaks your beer will hold carbonation. If you do, you can re-carbonate with the gas you didn't loose out of the tank. If you suspect a leak, only turn the gas valve on to test and pour. For that matter only connect the kegs when you are pouring, until it is resolved.

Good luck.

 

[whovous]

A couple things:
First, all the reviews I read of the Taprite regulator said they were happy they replaced their cheap version with Taprite. If there is something better out there that just won't leak, I am interested in learning about it;
Second, the money is already spent on the step down regulator, and I think that if for nothing else, it should make for a great spunding valve. I am pretty confident that I finally have what I need to make that work for me. So, the money won't be wasted in any case.
Third, I will check the kegs proper tonight, but they are still pretty new and I always lube them. I'll be surprised to find a leak there.
Fourth, I am fairly confident the problem is not with my hoses, either. I am not sure how to be sure the connection between hose and keg is good.
Fifth, I know there are problems with the regulator, but they seem to be moving around. I tighten one and next time it is somewhere else.
Sixth, I am a bit daunted by the prospect of taking the thing completely apart. I have some very special skills, and one is that things don't always go back together the way they came apart.

All of this, FWIW, is why I want a simpler system. Instead of methodically checking and rechecking for leaks, I want something that simply works. I am not yet convinced that my idea is doable, but I am certain my idea is a whole lot more simple and less likely to leak than all these danged regulators seem to be.

 

[whovous]

Oh, one more thing. Dunk a regulator in water? Gauges and all?

 

[chickypad]

Fifth, I know there are problems with the regulator, but they seem to be moving around. I tighten one and next time it is somewhere else.

I'm just finding this odd, provided you have a decent quality regulator including Taprite. Sure you may have a leak when you first replace a gauge but once things are tightened and checked once there shouldn't be ongoing problems. Are you banging your tank and regulator around or something?

Regardless of what you decide to set up you're not going to get some magic system that you don't need to check. There are going to be connections somewhere. And with kegs you need to check every single time. IME that is the most common source because you're swapping them out constantly. With the rest - regulators, splitters, line connections, etc. meticulously check once well then you should be good. Basically as day_trippr desribed. I don't have as many systems as he does but I have 3 regulators, 3 manifolds, 11 total lines and once set up I have not had any leaks now yrs down the road. Only problem is the occasionally leaky keg that I check for each time I hook one up.

 

[whovous]

I guess one thing I have not made clear is that I do not have a kegerator. I have a chest freezer and a temp controller, and sometimes it is a fermentation chamber, and sometimes it holds a finished keg. Everything goes "loose" inside the freezer. Nothing is set up and installed in place. I don't think I bang things around, but things definitely do get moved.

 

[whovous]

I found the leak, and maybe I bang things around more than I thought. My Taprite has two gauges. One measures the pressure in the tank, and the other measures the pressure to the keg. A square shaft goes from the regulator assembly into each gauge. The leak is from the gauge and around that square shaft. I can see vapor under proper conditions, and I can even hear it. Wrapping my hand around the gauge mutes the sound.

I assume this is not something I can fix, as the leak does not involve any threads. Do I replace the gauge, or the entire assembly.

Is there a particular gauge out there that is especially well known for never leaking? Cost is not real important if I can idiot proof my CO2 setup.

I persist in believing this should be doable with no gauges at all, but while I continue to work on the proof for my theorem, there is beer that wants to be carbed.

 

[day_trippr]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/i-found-my-leak.653562/#post-8358050

Multi-posting is counter-productive...

Cheers!

 

[whovous]

Different subject, different post. But thanks for the response in the other thread. I will buy a replacement gauge while I continue trying to figure out how to make my gauge-free fantasy work. I still think it is a good idea, even though so far precisely no one has agreed with me.

I am beginning to wonder if the 75PSI step-down I referenced above is good enough. Just how high-pressure is the high pressure side on a two gauge regulator? 2,000psi or thereabouts? That is apparently what the high pressure gauge is supposed to read. Is that a typical pressure for a CO2 tank, or is that massive overkill.

 

[day_trippr]

Vapor pressure in a CO2 cylinder is a function of % of fill and temperature.

In a civilized indoor environment the pressure will likely hang around 1000 psi, but prudence would respect the maximum system pressure as defined by the minimum blow-out rating (as shown in the chart, typically 2200 psi) at least. If you look for high pressure CO2 hoses they're typically rated at 3000 psi...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Interesting thread. I guess I'm happy bottling.

 

[day_trippr]

I used to bottle, fairly contently as I recall.
Then one day I faced 20 gallons of bottling - on the hottest day of the year.
That did it...

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

Removing gauges from a system because one happens to leak is a plain stupid idea. I know someone living with heart failure.

 

[Bobby_M]

The most leak prone part of a keg system is the keg itself. Start working on removing the keg from the system design.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

A couple things:
Second, the money is already spent on the step down regulator, and I think that if for nothing else, it should make for a great spunding valve. I am pretty confident that I finally have what I need to make that work for me. So, the money won't be wasted in any case.

Sixth, I am a bit daunted by the prospect of taking the thing completely apart. I have some very special skills, and one is that things don't always go back together the way they came apart.

As a spunding valve how are you going to step down the pressure to the 10-15lbs you will need?

As far as #6 goes, I had to laugh out loud on that one, I resemble that remark.

Oh, one more thing. Dunk a regulator in water? Gauges and all?

I know this is a bit extreme, but I was able to find that the the pipe on my regulator that goes to the nut attaching it to the tank was leaking on the regulator side. I tightened it up and it fixed it.

I did take the covers off the gauges and blew them out and dry with an air hose when I was done.

I found the leak, and maybe I bang things around more than I thought. My Taprite has two gauges. One measures the pressure in the tank, and the other measures the pressure to the keg. A square shaft goes from the regulator assembly into each gauge. The leak is from the gauge and around that square shaft. I can see vapor under proper conditions, and I can even hear it. Wrapping my hand around the gauge mutes the sound.

I assume this is not something I can fix, as the leak does not involve any threads. Do I replace the gauge, or the entire assembly.

Is there a particular gauge out there that is especially well known for never leaking? Cost is not real important if I can idiot proof my CO2 setup.

I persist in believing this should be doable with no gauges at all, but while I continue to work on the proof for my theorem, there is beer that wants to be carbed.

You can buy replacement gauges and they are not expensive. I am not sure of a specific gauge brand, but, my LHBS sells either gauge for around $9.

Also, you may have already realized this, but one of the gauges has left handed threads. I think it is the High Pressure one. I screwed with one for quite a while before realizing that (see my response to #6 above).

 

[whovous]

As a spunding valve how are you going to step down the pressure to the 10-15lbs you will need?

That is the beauty of the Gov-Reg valve. You set it with a separate tool before placing it in line. I think it will handle up to about 35psi or as low as you wanna go. Once it is set, it is accurate to 0.5psi. A gauge based regulator is only accurate to within 5psi.

This "secondary regulator" is a zillion times smaller than a gauge based device, and it has far fewer places that can leak. I hope to finish sorting out just how to apply it to the homebrew environment. It is intended for bars and permits use of a single small and "un-resettable" valve for each tap line in the bar.

 

[whovous]

Removing gauges from a system because one happens to leak is a plain stupid idea. I know someone living with heart failure.

A growing number of taverns disagree with you.

And this doesn't truly do away with gauges. They are used to set the secondary regulator. Unlike ordinary regulators, it cannot be reset once it is placed inline. There is no regulator drift.

 

[whovous]

Vapor pressure in a CO2 cylinder is a function of % of fill and temperature.

In a civilized indoor environment the pressure will likely hang around 1000 psi, but prudence would respect the maximum system pressure as defined by the minimum blow-out rating (as shown in the chart, typically 2200 psi) at least. If you look for high pressure CO2 hoses they're typically rated at 3000 psi...

Cheers!

I really appreciate this, as it finally has me visualizing how all of this could go together. A high pressure hose could even be a solution to my problem, but it looks like I'd still need to rely on a clamp at one point in the system. At 50F I am probably looking at less than 700 PSI, but that is still plenty to make worry about what happens when a clamp inevitably blows off one day.

But this takes me back to the 75PSI regulator I mentioned above. That gets me from 800 to 75psi, and my secondary valves will take me from there to wherever I set them (likely in the 4 to 30psi range, depending on the particular use) Do you know the ratings for a typical red gas line? Is it well over 75PSI? If it is, then all I need to do is assure myself that my clamp can handle 75 PSI.

 

[whovous]

One more thing. A replacement gauge (right hand thread) is on the way. I am going to continue doing this the old fashioned way for now.

 

[ancientmariner52]

One more thing. A replacement gauge (right hand thread) is on the way. I am going to continue doing this the old fashioned way for now.

Just a general comment concerning mechanical pressure gages. They are most accurate in the middle of the range. For example, a 0-100 psi gauge is best suited to a system that operates between 25 and 75 psig. So a 0-2000 psi gauge is accurate in the 500-1500 psi range. Source: Navy A-School class on how gauges work.