Kegging vs Bottling

[JoeSchmoe]

Hopefully this question hasn't been asked before.

I'm new to beer brewing with 3 batches under my belt. I don't mind bottling, but I hate waiting for the beer to be ready.

On my first two batches, I tried them after a week, and they were carbonated but tasted a little "raw" (for lack of a better word) or like something was missing in the body. After two weeks they were both pretty good and I felt redeemed. By week three I thought both batches were very good (superb in the case of batch 2).

Today I opened one from my 3rd batch after 9 days in the bottle. It had the same raw/unfinished taste even though it was carbed to my liking.

I keep hearing how kegging will speed up carbonation. I'd like to make the jump for that reason... but I'm worried the freshly kegged batches will have that same unfinished taste I'm noticing in my bottles. If it's going to take 2 to 3 weeks of aging anyways, I think I'll just stick to bottling.

Thoughts? Thanks!

 

[doug293cz]

Patience is your friend when brewing. It very often takes weeks before a beer really hits its stride, whether you bottle or keg. Get a pipeline going so you have beer ready to drink while you are waiting for your latest brew to mature.

Brew on

 

[sibelman]

raw/unfinished taste

St. Patrick's day aside, some refer to this as "green beer" Doug's counsel is right on target.

Even hop-forward styles that are best when fresh take some time to reach their peak.

Faster (and more controllable) force-carbonating is fine indeed, but flavor changes, especially in the early days of a brew.

Some believe that bottle-conditioned beer is simply better than force-carbonated beer. Some folks don't bottle, but add priming sugar to kegs instead of force-carbonating. Many variations, but some patience is best for all methods.

 

[SFC Rudy]

Kegging presents its own challenges to get it right.

Even with kegging I still plan on it being at least a month before I drink my beer.

I’ll carbonate with priming sugar when I know it’ll be awhile before that keg will be tapped.

 

[Broken Crow]

Patience is your friend when brewing. I'm echoing Doug here because it cannot be impressed enough on new and recent homebrewers, and not just in waiting for your bottled beer to condition properly but also in the fermentation phase.....
Based on your other posts as regards kegging: Kegging is a significant outlay in cost and learning, in your case being limited by a 5-gallon stovetop brewpot you'd be looking at the significantly more expensive 2.5G and 3G kegs. As to upping the size of your kettle you expressed concern over how much you can drink: Most properly conditioned beer in bottles or kegs can last quite a while (IPA's and hop-aroma being a special case requiring pages of arguments)..just adjust how often you brew. If you are interested in upping your game at the front end, as a fellow Canuck I can recommend the on sale kettles from Goldsteam Brewing in BC, which is sadly going out of business: https://goldsteam.com/product-category/beer-brewing-equipment/kettles-and-mash-tuns/
What I noticed missing from your posts in the short week since you signed up is any mention of fermentation times and temperatures (kudos on buying a heating pad...do you have it in a ferm chamber?), any mention or questions around water chemistry/profiles, pH levels. While I think kegging is great, you haven't mentioned oxydation yet either.
Patience, not just just for elements in the brewing process, but for your own Brewing Journey has the greatest rewards. In other words; I think you'd be cheating youself of the learning opportunity of moving to kegs before you learned to perfect your current process.
Tell us more about your current gear and process.

 

[sibelman]

Broken Crow touches on many important issues. One note: smaller kegs are ideal for smaller batches, but 5 gallon kegs can also be used for small batches.

 

[Willy]

Will echo the same sentiments of several posts with decades of brewing under their belt.

Patience. (Depends on the style. Most will take at least a few weeks to "ripen" and mature. Some takes months. )

Plan. Always nice to have variety and making that happen takes careful planning, and learning your "system", whether using bottles or kegs.

Pipeline - One of the hardest areas to master. Some beers take longer to mature (a pilsner likes to lager for 4-6 weeks and an Imperial Stout can be smooth as velvet after 5 months).

You wanna make more beer. More often. More varieties. Do that and you will find more friends. Haha.

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

Will echo the same sentiments of several posts with decades of brewing under their belt.

Patience. (Depends on the style. Most will take at least a few weeks to "ripen" and mature. Some takes months. )

Plan. Always nice to have variety and making that happen takes careful planning, and learning your "system", whether using bottles or kegs.

Pipeline - One of the hardest areas to master. Some beers take longer to mature (a pilsner likes to lager for 4-6 weeks and an Imperial Stout can be smooth as velvet after 5 months).

You wanna make more beer. More often. More varieties. Do that and you will find more friends. Haha.

All of this. I only bottle and they only get better with time. If there is anything that this hobby teaches you, its patience. I don't have the equipment for kegging and also tend to have multiple beers going, but I can for sure see the appeal. There is something about bottling though that appeals to me in that its less "industrial." Hard to explain. I'm not running a brewery I'm just an older guy who likes learning the craft and enjoying with a few friends.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Patience is your friend when brewing. I'm echoing Doug here because it cannot be impressed enough on new and recent homebrewers, and not just in waiting for your bottled beer to condition properly but also in the fermentation phase.....
Based on your other posts as regards kegging: Kegging is a significant outlay in cost and learning, in your case being limited by a 5-gallon stovetop brewpot you'd be looking at the significantly more expensive 2.5G and 3G kegs. As to upping the size of your kettle you expressed concern over how much you can drink: Most properly conditioned beer in bottles or kegs can last quite a while (IPA's and hop-aroma being a special case requiring pages of arguments)..just adjust how often you brew. If you are interested in upping your game at the front end, as a fellow Canuck I can recommend the on sale kettles from Goldsteam Brewing in BC, which is sadly going out of business: https://goldsteam.com/product-category/beer-brewing-equipment/kettles-and-mash-tuns/
What I noticed missing from your posts in the short week since you signed up is any mention of fermentation times and temperatures (kudos on buying a heating pad...do you have it in a ferm chamber?), any mention or questions around water chemistry/profiles, pH levels. While I think kegging is great, you haven't mentioned oxydation yet either.
Patience, not just just for elements in the brewing process, but for your own Brewing Journey has the greatest rewards. In other words; I think you'd be cheating youself of the learning opportunity of moving to kegs before you learned to perfect your current process.
Tell us more about your current gear and process.

Ok... Here's my process.

As you mention, I have the 5 gallon stovetop pot. I actually mash inside on the stove and boil outside on my Bass pro fish fryer.

Last batch I started with 3.5 gallons of water and added a little over 10lbs worth of grains. That's probably the max I could realistically do. I end up mashing and boiling a more concentrated wart and cool down in the sink with a rubbermaid contraption I made to say 90-100F and take a OG reading. I then do a temp adjustment, and then calculate how much cold water I need to add to hit my target OG. This helps with mash cooling too. Last batch I had about 5 gallons in the glass carboy I use.

I ferment using US 05 in my basement for 2 weeks. My remote control BBQ thermometer shows my basement at a consistent 67F. I tried taping my other probe to the carboy and found it the 69-70F range.

I know this might sound sacrilege around here but I'm thinking of moving to making more light beers. I recently lost about 20% of my bodyweight and have literally turned into a bit of a lightweight with drinking. When I was bigger, I would never get too drunk when I stuck to beer. I could have as many as I wanted and could keep at a level of a socially acceptable buzz. Lately, I've been getting too sloppy. Sure I could drink less, but I'd rather not have to think about pacing (like I used to).

The side benefit of going light is I'll get bigger batches of beer by using the watering down technique. With that, I could easily fill a 5 gallon keg with what I'm doing now. That said, I very much like the pipeline idea. If I won't get better beer faster with kegging, I'd be less inclined to make the investment. That said, someone is selling a complete one keg Keezer system on Facebook marketplace for $200.

 

[Zadkiel]

I'm worried the freshly kegged batches will have that same unfinished taste I'm noticing in my bottles. If it's going to take 2 to 3 weeks of aging anyways, I think I'll just stick to bottling.

Thoughts? Thanks!

I don't see anyone in the thread actually answering his question, does skipping bottle carbonation speed up the aging of the beer?

I'd try and answer myself but I have no clue, I've only bottled myself. My gut reaction is no, a month in the bottle is the same as a month in the keg, but I don't actually know.

 

[doug293cz]

I don't see anyone in the thread actually answering his question, does skipping bottle carbonation speed up the aging of the beer?

I'd try and answer myself but I have no clue, I've only bottled myself. My gut reaction is no, a month in the bottle is the same as a month in the keg, but I don't actually know.

You need more than one keg to keep a pipeline going, and to have some variety (if you want that.)

Brew on

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

I don't see anyone in the thread actually answering his question, does skipping bottle carbonation speed up the aging of the beer?

I'd try and answer myself but I have no clue, I've only bottled myself. My gut reaction is no, a month in the bottle is the same as a month in the keg, but I don't actually know.

You're right of course. I would also be curious if kegged beer needs time to develop like bottled beer for both carbonation and maturity depending on the style produced.

 

[sibelman]

does skipping bottle carbonation speed up the aging of the beer?

It can speed up the carbonation process, which makes the brew seem like beer (instead of flat beer) sooner.

But as far as I can tell, having switched lost entirely to kegging some years back, it does not speed anything else.

So, in a word, no.

 

[bike2brew]

When I got started I also explored kegging and force carbonation with 1 gallon mini kegs largelyto get my beers in the glass faster. Yes it worked well but as I got my process going I always had beer to drink while the bottles were conditioning. Bottles suit my consumption habits well without having to maintain keg lines etc

 

[PCABrewing]

You're right of course. I would also be curious if kegged beer needs time to develop like bottled beer for both carbonation and maturity depending on the style produced.

Absolutely it does, carbonation does not equal maturity. As with the earlier Stout example from Willy. It's not unrealistic for a Stout to bottle carbonate in ~2 weeks or faster if force carbonating in a keg. But it is unrealistic to expect a Stout to be mature in two weeks, not impossible but I consider it almost so.

 

[hottpeper13]

The majority of my beers are hitting there stride at 4 weeks after packaging and peak at 6. I ferment for 3 weeks in primary then keg. I add 3 oz of sugar to each keg and wait 2 weeks then put in a 33* lagerator till space opens up in kegerator
My solution to a pipeline is 11 gal batches of wort split between 6.5 gal fermenters with a different yeast or just dry hop one.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

At what point in the aging process do bottles require refrigeration? Is it the same for kegs that have been primed with sugar (as hottpeper13 does)?

 

[Zadkiel]

I wouldn't say they 'require' refrigeration, you can certainly do fine without it - I guess lagering does require it, but I'd question it for ales.

I don't have space to have enough fridges on the go, all my beers are bottle conditioned the whole way at room temp, stuffed into boxes under the bed, or on shelves in our storage cupboard, and just chilled before drinking, and if they suffer because of that, I'm not noticing any shortcomings.

As to when they 'can' be refrigerated, as soon as you're happy they have finished carbonation.

 

[sibelman]

I wouldn't say they 'require' refrigeration

This is true. If you can keep them fairly cool (like, in a basement), that's better. Hot garage? Not a good location.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I have a simple rule Bitter goes into Corny Kegs all my other beers are bottled. Bitter is better fresh most other beers I brew need time to mature.

 

[ncbrewer]

In How to Brew, E4, Palmer shared some thoughts about aging beer. He said "Ideally, beer should be at the peak of flavor after sufficient maturation in the primary fermentor." He did allow a possible exception for "Some high gravity styles, such as old ale, Russian imperial stout, Baltic porter, doppelbock, and barleywine" that may (or may not) benefit from some oxidation character. As seen in this thread, his theory is controversial - I agree with him on this, at least for now, since you're never too old to learn.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Storing bottles cooler slows down the stalling process. Other topics have mentioned the increase in shelf life & IIRC, its 2x at ~ 40 F (fridge temp).

 

[MaxStout]

At what point in the aging process do bottles require refrigeration? Is it the same for kegs that have been primed with sugar (as hottpeper13 does)?

I'm a bottler, so I won't (can't) speak of kegging.

With the exception of big beers that need to age in a celler, I would say that the time to put bottles of beer in the fridge is once they are sufficiently carbonated. That may be 2 weeks, 3 or 4. You need to check a few bottles to see when you reach that point.

But once those beers have reached their "ripeness" (for lack of a better term), put them in the fridge. All of them, if you have room. Once chilled, they will stay at their peak longer.

With bottled beer, the clock is ticking. Oxidation will set in, but at refrigerator temps, it will be delayed.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

In the past, I've seen posts where brewers will use a 12oz PET bottle to 'know' when carbonation is complete.

IIRC, the process is to fill the bottle like the other bottles, but squeeze out the air in the PET bottle before screwing on the cap. Over the next week (or so), CO2 will expand the bottle to it's normal shape.

It's a technique that I haven't tried. Hopefully someone who is using it successfully will reply here.

@JoeSchmoe, given your (rather large) location, do you have a room with a consistent (over the seasons) temperature? I bottle condition in my basement (55F in late winter, ~65F in late summer) and over the years found up an approach that gets me good bottle conditioned beer in two weeks. Perhaps my situation is unique, but if you (or others) are interested in details, let me know.

 

[day_trippr]

When I bottled I took the same advice and would fill a couple of 12 ounce soda bottles along with the 50-something long necks, leaving a similar headspace volume. After about a week the soda bottles would have "hardened" enough to be obvious the conditioning was proceeding apace, but I'd still let them all run the course for a full two weeks before sticking them in the fridge for cold conditioning.

Cheers!

 

[YeastFeast]

I pretty much only make Stouts & Hazy IPAs. The Hazy is as good as it’s going to get at day 1 (4-5 days into carbonation).
The Russian Imperial Stout, sure, a little better after a little aging but not a huge difference. I cold crash all my beers for 3-5 days before kegging and always good right after full carbonation (4-5 days).
In other words, keg carbing is the only way to go for me, I notice little if anything after “aging”.

 

[bike2brew]

I serially test beers @ 10, 14 & 21 days to monitor carbonation. After that I begin to refrigerate for consumption. My closet has capacity for storage of several cases so lucky in that respect.

.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My closet has capacity for storage of several cases so lucky in that respect.

What is the temperature range in your closet?

 

[bike2brew]

I think it is 69 right now. I'm in NE Tennessee in the mountains. In winter it's around 64 so I may leave the bottles out in the open basement for 7 to 10 days to keep the yeast active.

 

[worlddivides]

Although kegging CAN carbonate faster than bottle conditioning, I find that bottle conditioning is typically faster than the "set it and forget it" method of keg carbonation where you just set the regulator to the bar/psi you need to get your desired carbonation. I'll admit that it does depend on how much yeast you have in solution and the temperature where the bottles are, but assuming there's plenty of yeast in solution and your room is at 68F to 77F, then the bottle conditioning is probably going to be faster than keg carbonation. I personally don't do the burst carbonation method, but that can be WAY faster than bottle conditioning. You can get a beer to the desired carbonation level in less than a day, though it has tons of risks.

However, that "raw/unfinished" taste will only dissipate with time. Keg carbonation will not speed that up at all.

It also depends on style, though. I find that really hoppy beers like hazy IPAs and American pale ales are very good young, but higher alcohol beers really need to be aged before they taste right. There are also some styles that are not high ABV that taste okay relatively young but that taste much better if you age them for a few months. And then there are styles (such as a lot of sours) where they won't be ready for more than a year.

Right now I both bottle and keg. I typically keg my most hoppy beers. I always bottle anything that's over 6% alcohol, but that's just me. I also bottle anything I want to age. That said, if I had the fridge space (and I have a beer-dedicated fridge), then I'd own 3 kegs and just use them for just about everything. But I currently only have the 1 keg.

 

[hottpeper13]

As for storing the unpasteurized beer I offer this experience. I was a sub contractor on a new beer distributor building for the loading dock and doors. There was a Keg room that had two high speed doors and was kept at 32*. Only the truck inside loading area wasn't temp controlled. We had 4 high speed doors for the storage area but I can't remember the setting. It was chill enough to wear coats for servicing. I keep my kegs at 33*.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

@JoeSchmoe, given your (rather large) location, do you have a room with a consistent (over the seasons) temperature? I bottle condition in my basement (55F in late winter, ~65F in late summer) and over the years found up an approach that gets me good bottle conditioned beer in two weeks. Perhaps my situation is unique, but if you (or others) are interested in details, let me know

I haven't monitored the temps through the seasons, but since I started brewing, my backroom of my basement has been 67 anytime I've checked. I have an old farmhouse with a stone foundation that's maybe 3ft thick. The backroom never sees sunlight. I'm guessing the hot days of the summer have been partially offset by some minor leaks in my ductwork carrying the AC to keep it consistent.

I'd imagine in the dead of winter (Niagara Canada region), it'll get colder unless the same leaks will add a bit of heat.

PS - What made you think I had a rather large location? My house is decent size, definitely not large though.

 

[sibelman]

leaks in my ductwork

Tangent: sealing (and insulating) those ducts properly can be costly, but it can substantially improve the efficiency of your heating and cooling.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

PS - What made you think I had a rather large location? My house is decent size, definitely not large though.

 

[MountainDevil]

I've always bottled, but the storage space is getting to be an issue at my current place. While i have plenty of room in the shed, it's a bit dirty and being 50m from the house, it's a bit of a nuisance to carry bottles back and forth all the time. Now I've got the beer aging in my study, but they're taking up plenty of space there. I have about 120 tallies, and i want to increase the length of my pipeline.

I bought a kegerator system off facebook marketplace with 3 cornies for A$250. This should be equivalent to about another 60 bottles, but far easier for storage. I plan to do most of my pale ales into the kegs, and continue bottling darker beers.

Less bottle washing will be appreciated as well.

 

[VTMongoose]

I believe yeast selection and pitch rate are the largest determinants of how quickly you can make beer. No matter what you do with your process, you will always be waiting for the yeast to do something. Everything works better with cleaner, faster yeast pitched at a high rate (*note: Not talking about my beloved Hefeweizen here).

Fundamentally for your average ale, you want to be using strains like Nottingham, Novalager, and S-04. These, at standard homebrew pitch rates (~2 grams per gallon) in standard strength wort, can fully ferment just about anything in less than a week, and produce practically no diacetyl or acetaldehyde, or other "stuff" that needs time to clean up. And you can pressure ferment with these strains saving you time and CO2. Oxebar kegs have been a game changer for me. I routinely ferment and serve from the same keg and if anything all the extra junk in the bottom just helps the beer clear and clean up faster.

CBC-1 bottle conditioning yeast is an absolute beast and is a tool in my pocket. This yeast will not only bottle condition your beer faster than any other strain, but it'll even clean up diacetyl and other junk left behind by other strains.

It's true to a large extent that you can't rush good beer, but you can also certainly do a lot to speed up the entire process without sacrificing a lot of character.

 

[TexasTea]

Ale guy...US 05 or Lutra depending upon my mood. I always bottle. I have everything to do kegs but I'm a bottler and most likely always will be. If you enter competitions; bottles are your friend unless you want to purchase a can seamer ($$$$$$). I buy other things with the savings (ammunition, firearms, hunting /fishing license, garden supplies, commodities, items for projects yada, yada.). I can wait for them to carbonate. I'm patient.

I used to bottle condition in the FC @ 68-70F, now I condition at 80F in the house (AC set temp , my house in the summer). In the winter I have the heat set at 65 (although in winter Texas ambient temps are often higher at that time) and bottle condition at that temp. No difference in taste! And now I can fit several more fermenters in my FC. Woo Hoo, what's not to like? I don't know if it works for Lager, but I'll find out later.

Bottles are your best buddies

 

[Closet Fermenter]

At what point in the aging process do bottles require refrigeration? Is it the same for kegs that have been primed with sugar (as hottpeper13 does)?

When I keg a stout in the winter, I prime the keg with sugar, put it in the utility room adjoining my carport. It’s an unheated space, but houses my water heater, two freezers, and a single tap kegerator. Since I typically prefer my stouts at a slightly warmer temperature, I often don’t ever refrigerate them but just pour directly from the naked keg! The temperature in there rarely dips into the 30’s but frequently reaches 50°F.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Since OP is doing smaller batches, he does have the option of fermenting in a 5 gallon keg with a floating dip, priming the keg with sugar, and serving directly from the keg with a party tap, but I recommend the Tapit. This greatly reduces the initial costs of getting started with kegging, and is something I occasionally do anyway, even though I have the tanks, etc.

 

[ncbrewer]

If you enter competitions; bottles are your friend

I always thought bottle conditioned beer would be at a disadvantage in competitions due to the dregs getting mixed in with the beer. You don't have this problem?

In the winter I have the heat set at 65 (although in winter Texas ambient temps are often higher at that time) and bottle condition at that temp. No difference in taste!

I found the beer took about 50% longer to carb up at 65F. Do you see something like that?