Keg Force Carbing Methods Illustrated

[IPAAAA]

Just don't understand why it says you can do the shake method and have it carb up in a few days. I don't want to wait 2-3 weeks to carb my beer when I can just bottle in that same time. That is why I don't really understand this 2-3 weeks sitting around business.

But just to make sure with what I asked in the previous post....if I carb with 30-35 psi right now at 70 degrees the beer should be fully carbed at the correct co2 volume I want in a few weeks...correct? So basically the colder the beer the less psi needed to carb up the beer to your desired volumes.

 

[jgourd]

The basic idea is that, at colder temperatures CO2 goes into solution much more easily; therefore, you need less pressure to get the volumes of CO2 you want in the beer. So I simply cool my beer to 38F to 40F (takes about 36 to 48 hours). Once cold, I hook up my CO2 set to about 30 PSI and shake for about 2 minutes. I then unhook the gas and let it sit for 24 hours. After that, I hook the gas back up, purge the keg, and set the pressure at 11 PSI (what it requires me to keep my beer carbonated at my desired volumes on my balanced system). Done in as few as 3 days. But to be honest, it takes about a week to be perfect in terms of carbonation.

 

[Bobby_M]

The sitting around business is just a method called "set and forget" and hopefully the first post in this thread offers some insight into why many brewers advocate it as a reasonable thing to consider. In short, it's foolproof and you'll never overcarb it. The next best thing if you're in a hurry is to elevate the pressure to twice what the chart says and give it 36-48 hours or so without shaking, then dial it back to chart pressure. That first 48 hours probably gets you about 75% of the total volumes you want.

You can also boost carb at room temp if you want. The set and forget pressure is that 30psi on the chart. You can boost it to 60psi for two days to get a big head start.

 

[IPAAAA]

Thanks guys. Just always thought one of the benefits of kegging was real quick carbonation so it threw me off.

Can't wait to get this up and running!

 

[Hannable1975]

Racking to my first keg ever right now - keg is gonna set at 65-68 degress for 12 days, then 2 days in fridge for new years. Beersmith has me at 27.7 psi

DO I leave the tank on that whole time, or run it up to 28, wait till it quits groaning and shut the tank off?

 

[jaobrien6]

Gas has to stay on the whole time. As it slowly carbonates, CO2 will continually come out of the tank to keep the headspace pressurized and replace the CO2 that went into solution.

 

[Hannable1975]

Thnx - So excited I guess I quit thinking! LOL

 

[HoppedIPA]

It is quick carbonation if you do everything properly.. and the biggest thing next to pressure is temps.. and actually temps is almost more important than pressure levels..

Thanks guys. Just always thought one of the benefits of kegging was real quick carbonation so it threw me off.

Can't wait to get this up and running!

 

[HoppedIPA]

Oh i think you need to leave it hooked up otherwise your pressure will drop as the co2 gets absorbed by the liquid.. probly at the time you start to actualy cool it you can turn it down to closer to 10-12 psi.. Question.. WHy have it set in the keg for 12 days @65-68 degrees ?
why not just chill it down and go for it?

Racking to my first keg ever right now - keg is gonna set at 65-68 degress for 12 days, then 2 days in fridge for new years. Beersmith has me at 27.7 psi

DO I leave the tank on that whole time, or run it up to 28, wait till it quits groaning and shut the tank off?

 

[Anubis]

One of the things I have always read is kegging is quicker than bottling. After reading everything on here I think that's just false. Sure the bottling part is out of the way and all you do is clean, sanitize, rack, perge o2 and seal. But that's it.

It seems like plenty of people using faster methods have great beer in just a few days or a week, but also say it gets better in a week. NOT ALL have said this, just some. But it got me thinkin'.

So I set my first keg to 11psi at put it in the keezer and forgot about it. Brewing and bottling made me earn this patience and kegging isn't gonna take it from me! But it's nice to know that if I get behind there are options.

Thanks Bobby and everybody for all the great info!

 

[jgourd]

For me, kegging is all about having to only sanitize a single keg rather than 50 bottles. It takes me one fourth the time too. And I don't have to store bottles. At one time, I had over 600!

 

[Yooper]

For me, kegging is all about having to only sanitize a single keg rather than 50 bottles. It takes me one fourth the time too. And I don't have to store bottles. At one time, I had over 600!

I like having four different beers available, and I often drink just 1/2 glass of one or the other. I like not having to open a bottle, rinse it out, place it upside down in the sink until dry, then storing it in the basement! I just grab a glass and pour whatever I want, as much as I want. I love kegging, and will NEVER go back to bottling!

The fresh tap beer tastes great, too.

 

[jgourd]

The fresh tap beer tastes great, too.

This is true. I had not ever tasted very fresh beer (particularly dry hopped ones) before. It's great how the beer changes from a few days in the keg to a few months.

 

[HoppedIPA]

I have only kegged 2 batches so far never bottled except from a keg. The second time i put the beer in on a thursday night and was drinking it saturday night out of a growler i took to my LHBC Holliday dinner. I got some great reviews on this and the first beer being they were my first and second beers.. quote about first beer.." Wow this was your first ever beer My first beer tasted like Cr@p and i had to blend it to be able to drink it.." But the speed for me from 2ndary to drinking in about 48 hours. I kept it on about 30psi for the first 24 hours then turned it down to about 13 the second 24 hours. ALso i had it chilled down to about 40 degrees when i started carbonation.

One of the things I have always read is kegging is quicker than bottling. After reading everything on here I think that's just false. Sure the bottling part is out of the way and all you do is clean, sanitize, rack, perge o2 and seal. But that's it.

It seems like plenty of people using faster methods have great beer in just a few days or a week, but also say it gets better in a week. NOT ALL have said this, just some. But it got me thinkin'.

So I set my first keg to 11psi at put it in the keezer and forgot about it. Brewing and bottling made me earn this patience and kegging isn't gonna take it from me! But it's nice to know that if I get behind there are options.

Thanks Bobby and everybody for all the great info!

 

[worth]

I highly suspect I will be receiving a picnic kegging kit from Keg Cowboy and one keg for Christmas. At this time, I simply don't have room for a kegerator, so I am planning to (possibly) force carb using the thirty PSI/24 Hr method this winter, as our lows are about 35-38, and prime the summer kegs until I can sell my lawnmower and find a fridge for my shed (how's that for dedication, or does it make me sound like a crackhead). My question is does anybody else force carb in a garage/shed when the ambient temp outside fluctuates some but is generally at or near serving temp, or am I setting myself up for failure b/c there is too much variability. I might need to just prime everything for a while. Any thoughts?

 

[Bobby_M]

You can carbonate at room temp if you want, the pressure just needs to be higher. If you want to do it in the cold, you can as long as the fluctuations aren't too wild. Stick one of those liquid crystal thermometers on the side of the keg and wrap some bubble wrap around the keg. That will stabilize the temp a bit.

 

[worth]

Thanks for the advice. Can't wait to keg for the first time next week!

 

[HenryKDuff]

Thanks for a great thread! I am also new to kegging and have my first keg in the "set" part of "set & forget" (the "forget" part is much more difficult).

My question is about the beer line length. Everyone seems to agree 10' is best, but my kegerator came with 5' lines. The psi chart has me at 10-11 psi based on my temp and desired carbonation level. Does the chart still hold with the shorter 5' beer lines?

If I do need to use less pressure, what I should do now that the keg has been on 10psi for 4+ days?

 

[HoppedIPA]

Have you tried it yet? I had a pint off a keg i put in last night with dinner tonight and while it wasnt fully carbonated it was still quite tasty.. I also have my pressure around 20psi right now..and origionally had it up to 30 and rocked it back and forth for about 75 seconds. then let it sit that way about an hour or two then turned it down to 20.. Not saying my way is the right way just the way i did it..
Oh also on the beer line length 5' is just fine.. I say Give it a try... If you want it to carb faster turn your pressure up and once its to the carb about you like then turn it back down to 10 or so.

Thanks for a great thread! I am also new to kegging and have my first keg in the "set" part of "set & forget" (the "forget" part is much more difficult).

My question is about the beer line length. Everyone seems to agree 10' is best, but my kegerator came with 5' lines. The psi chart has me at 10-11 psi based on my temp and desired carbonation level. Does the chart still hold with the shorter 5' beer lines?

If I do need to use less pressure, what I should do now that the keg has been on 10psi for 4+ days?

 

[FLJohnson]

These graphs do not appear to be produced from real data. Without the data, I'm skeptical that these graphs represent reality.

 

[juslod]

These graphs do not appear to be produced from real data. Without the data, I'm skeptical that these graphs represent reality.

I'm pretty sure they're just meant to be a visual guide to how the different force carbonating methods compare. It wasn't meant to be an exact representation of data.

Use them for what they're worth, but those values are not exact...

 

[FLJohnson]

Of course, the figures aren't exact. They are only a pure guess since carbonation levels weren't measured. This is pseudo-science at its worst.

 

[Bobby_M]

The chart is not meant to be a representation of measured data but it is based on general principals that the partial pressure delta between the headspace and liquid for which CO2 is to be dissolved affects the rate of absorption. That is why the volumes to time curve is logarithmic.

If you don't have any real arguments against the concepts/statements represented, please don't discount it as pseudo science. If you do have some specific points that you don't agree with, please share them so we can all benefit and discuss.

I'll grant you that this thread is not science but it is based on knowledge I've acquired through reading as much as I can and comparing it against practical experience of kegging for a few years. How long have you been kegging your beer?

 

[FLJohnson]

I don't see the basis upon which you assigned the precise y value for each x value a you have plotted these for each of the curves. I don't see a basis for the precise kinetic relationship between time and carbonation level as depicted on the plots? And I don't see a basis for the relative differences in the kinetics between the different carbonation methods.

My biggest problem with the plots is that they imply that many, or at least multiple, measurements of carbonation level were made over a long period of time. The multiple inflexions in one curve implies that a lot of measurements were made to generate such a curve. From what I have been able to determine, nothing was measured.

 

[Bobby_M]

Right, the curves were drawn freehand to illustrate the basic concepts that are well understood. I'm sorry if you don't find any value here but it would be great if you'd offer positive input rather than just drop a pseudo-science FU into a respected thread that has helped a lot of new keggers.

1. Elevated partial pressure of CO2 increases the rate of carbonation due to higher concentration of CO2 molecules at the surface of the beer. Agree?

2. Elevated pressure over the equilibrium pressure on the volumes charts will carb faster but the possibility of overshooting is very real. Agree?

3. The multiple inflections depicted in the red line represent the act of purging the headspace pressure of an overcarbed keg to zero psi. As the dissolved CO2 partial pressure and that of the headspace equalize, the overall volumes of dissolved CO2 drop a relatively small amount when there is 5 gallons of beer and .5 gallons of headspace. Agree?

 

[Hannable1975]

FWIW, it was this very thread that led me to make the purchasing decision and get a keg and set up. I did it after seeing the graph, understanding it's intent, and reading the thread.

Based upon the comments here, and the data that Brewsmith gave me when it was time to use it the first time, I am satisfied that it served it's purpose. Some need hard numbers and extensive data to accept a precept - I'll take good 'ol experience and helpful advice over cold numbers any day. No problem either way, it's a preference thing. I'm sure that there are measured studies that could be found elsewhere that will reflect what appears to b the experience of all those within the thread, but see no reason to hunt for it. I came here for a friendly, casual learning and sharing forum, and found exactly that.

I like the thread,and thank you Bobby_M for it. And to those who answered my questions in it.

 

[FLJohnson]

1. Elevated partial pressure of CO2 increases the rate of carbonation due to higher concentration of CO2 molecules at the surface of the beer. Agree?

I agree with the general statement, and almost everyone already knows that information--it's common sense. The question your addressing with your graph is, "How fast is the carbonation?", and your graph implies that the rate can be described by the mathematical model depicted in the graph, yet you have no data to make such a conclusion. Consequently, the graph may be very misleading and not as helpful as you assert. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying you don't have the observational data to make such assertions.

2. Elevated pressure over the equilibrium pressure on the volumes charts will carb faster but the possibility of overshooting is very real. Agree?

Of course, I agree with this general statement, and, again, this is common sense. But you are putting numbers to the rate of carbonation which is, again, perhaps misleading and consequently not helpful.

3. The multiple inflections depicted in the red line represent the act of purging the headspace pressure of an overcarbed keg to zero psi. As the dissolved CO2 partial pressure and that of the headspace equalize, the overall volumes of dissolved CO2 drop a relatively small amount when there is 5 gallons of beer and .5 gallons of headspace. Agree?

Again, I agree with such a general statement. My objection is with your putting numbers to the rate of decrease in carbonation level and to the amount of the decrease without measurements. Certainly the amount of decrease will be directly related to the volume of the headspace relative to the volume of the liquid and could be predicted based on the mathematics.

Had you stuck with general statements, I would have no objection (but I would also not have any new information). Leave the graphs for displaying real, experimental data or for displaying a specific mathematical model which could be critiqued. Without the data or a model, you are simply making up numbers, to which I call, "Foul!"

The hobby is already suffering from lots of misinformation. I'm trying to stem the tide.

 

[Bobby_M]

Here's the thing, all of that is NOT common sense at all. This thread and the shoddy graph was conceived because I've been around here long enough to notice that a LOT of new keggers were having a hard time understanding.

I understand wanting to see real measured numbers and I'd love for someone to go through that effort (It sounds like you're volunteering). Oh, wait, you're not are you.

I've admitted to the graph as being purely conceptual and never claimed otherwise. I don't think anyone thought it was plotted data points from real measurements. The alternative is that I don't post anything or try to be helpful for fear that it may be misinterpreted.

This is not a science journal. It's more like a bunch of homebrewers shooting the crap at a pub and this graph is like something I'd draw on a napkin to compare the approximate absorption rates of the various carb methods.

I'm glad you showed up here though, thousands of homebrewers can now be assured they won't be led astray.

 

[HenryKDuff]

Have you tried it yet? I had a pint off a keg i put in last night with dinner tonight and while it wasnt fully carbonated it was still quite tasty.. I also have my pressure around 20psi right now..and origionally had it up to 30 and rocked it back and forth for about 75 seconds. then let it sit that way about an hour or two then turned it down to 20.. Not saying my way is the right way just the way i did it..
Oh also on the beer line length 5' is just fine.. I say Give it a try... If you want it to carb faster turn your pressure up and once its to the carb about you like then turn it back down to 10 or so.

I tried it just now, after a week at 10psi and it is tasty, clear and flat. So the obvious answer is let it sit another week or two (I don't want to try the shaking/rocking thing). My question now is - is there anything to be gained or lost by leaving the keg beer line hooked up (besides the temptation of trying it every time I walk by it if it stays hooked up)? If I unhook it, what happens to the beer currently in the line?

 

[HoppedIPA]

What temp is it the beer that is.. Turn up the pressure too!

I tried it just now, after a week at 10psi and it is tasty, clear and flat. So the obvious answer is let it sit another week or two (I don't want to try the shaking/rocking thing). My question now is - is there anything to be gained or lost by leaving the keg beer line hooked up (besides the temptation of trying it every time I walk by it if it stays hooked up)? If I unhook it, what happens to the beer currently in the line?

 

[IPAAAA]

How long does it usually take for the beer to clear in the keg?

 

[infection]

This is not a science journal. It's more like a bunch of homebrewers shooting the crap at a pub and this graph is like something I'd draw on a napkin to compare the approximate absorption rates of the various carb methods.

Bingo!....we are not here studying for a physics test.....we are just a bunch of homebrewers sharing methods and techniques on carbing our kegged brew, and posting our successes and failures so others can learn

 

[HoppedIPA]

For me so far normally by the 4th pint its as clear as it going to get which is pretty clear so far.. and yes i do drink the non clear beer!
It may cause a bit of added flatulence.. haha

How long does it usually take for the beer to clear in the keg?

 

[IPAAAA]

Cool...definitely noticed the added odors leaking out of my body haha. Gonna do the gelatin next time I brew.

For me so far normally by the 4th pint its as clear as it going to get which is pretty clear so far.. and yes i do drink the non clear beer!
It may cause a bit of added flatulence.. haha

 

[ronstar55]

I kegged my first batch (oatmeal stout) yesterday - before I read this thread. I used instructions for force carbonating that came with my kegerator. I racked the beer and put it the kegerator overnight. Then I hit it with 30lbs, took off the gas and rolled it for 10 minutes. Let it sit a few hours (CO2 was disconnected ), then bled off CO2, set at 12lbs, and tapped a glass. It was ok, but later last night my next glass seemed flat.

From now on I'll use the steps mentioned in this thread.

This thread suggests that my stout will eventually carb up over a week or 2 leaving it at 12lbs.

I have 2 kegs, one bottle of CO2, one regulator with 2 lines. I have another batch in the fermenter now.

If I want to boost carb the 2nd batch, it looks like I'll have to shut the gas off my first keg if I want to boost my 2nd at 30lbs for a day or 2?

It seems to make sense to just set it and forget it since I only have one regulator for 2 kegs so that I won't have to take the first keg off gas.

 

[ragweed]

I've had a couple kegs on at ~15PSI and cold (35F) for two full days now, and have shaken them a couple times. I'd like the beer to be carbed enough to be drinkable tomorrow night, any chance of that happening?

From reading this I guess I need to up the PSI now (~30PSI), stop shaking them, and then a few hours (how many?) before serving lower the PSI and bleed off/release the extra pressure in the keg. Sound like my best bet?

Thanks for any help.

 

[HoppedIPA]

I having no data... what i would try if it was mine is yes turn it up to 25psi shake it till you hear it stop burbling... I bet most people dont force carb with the gas connected to the liquid side, like i do so there wouldnt be any brubling... hmmmm See i connect another black=liquid connector to my gas for carbing to let it burble through the liquid i do this for a few minutes. then i stop shaking and then when that stops burbling i turn it down.. to 20 or so for alittle while normally 24 hours or so.. The worst thing that can happen is it over carbs and you get alot of foam right?
Dont take me word for it..

I've had a couple kegs on at ~15PSI and cold (35F) for two full days now, and have shaken them a couple times. I'd like the beer to be carbed enough to be drinkable tomorrow night, any chance of that happening?

From reading this I guess I need to up the PSI now (~30PSI), stop shaking them, and then a few hours (how many?) before serving lower the PSI and bleed off/release the extra pressure in the keg. Sound like my best bet?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Frodo]

The question your addressing with your graph is, "How fast is the carbonation?", and your graph implies that the rate can be described by the mathematical model depicted in the graph, yet you have no data to make such a conclusion. Consequently, the graph may be very misleading and not as helpful as you assert. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying you don't have the observational data to make such assertions.

Wow and I thought I could sometimes be an *******. Since when doesn't experience count for anything? He stated upfront, at least twice as I recall within the first couple of posts that the graph was something thrown together to help others who were asking a lot of questions about kegging.... Just like I was about to before I read this thread and saw the discussion.

Thanks Bobby for the awesome graph and all the thorough explanation throughout this thread, as well as all the others who have contributed their experiences and knowledge. Also, nice analogy about this forum being like a bunch of homebrewers discussing topics at a pub, and sketching on napkins.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks for having my back. Some people like to drag their ass on your light carpets when they have monkeybutt.

 

[fdb16]

I was trying to read through the post but my eyes started going cross eyed. I see in the beginning that you can over carb by putting it at 30 and leaving too long. As far as set and forget, wouldn't set and rock to force the co2 into the beer be as effective? Wouldn't the beer only accept as much pressure as what you set the regulator to? I usually just set and forget but need something done quick and don't want to over carb. Anyone have experience with this method? I apologize if this has been addressed, I just couldn't read anymore. Cheers!