Just tasted my first two kegged beers - baaad... what the heck happened??

[andrewmaixner]

...
Regardless I would say it's like a month for it to mellow and condition to the point you give it a gulp and say.... Nice.
The trick is to keep enough in the keg to make that time frame work for you not against you.

Yes, I'm new at this but have already noticed that for my beers that are over the 5% ABV range, 2-3 weeks seems not enough for reasonable flavor development, and they are better at 5-6 weeks (I age at 68F after SG stops dropping). This might be less important if you have high-quality temperature controls for fermentation.

So buy a couple more carboys (or more kegs if you have the cash), and have a longer queue of beers mellowing out before putting them on tab. Sure it takes a few more weeks for a specific batch to be on tap, but the quality will be higher at tapping instead of having it improve more slowly in the fridge while you are drinking it.

 

[Rev2010]

You said you have them set at different pressures? so you are running different regulators off the same tank? I guess to secondary regulators?

I have a dual gauge primary regulator and three product Taprite secondary regulator so I can control the pressures of three individual kegs.

@Kornbob - tried that on Saturday, it's in the taste and smell, so no it's not just a smell influenced thing.

As mentioned I'll pull another sample Saturday and report back.


Rev.

 

[cannman]

I did the skim read on the topic...

Was real pumpkin used in this boil?

When was it added?

If it didn't come from a can, fruits are generally sterile unless the hull has been breached by another organism or injury. Fresh fruit can become contaminated from the moment the brewers cuts into it with an unsanitized knife. Then possibly when laid on an unsanitized cutting board, exposure to air etc.

Therefor if the fruit was added to the boil late, it is possible for a number of organisms to have survived to fermentation...

I understand this might be a fat chance, but as an avid preserver of all things yum, I choose to freeze my pumpkin instead of canning it due to infection risks with this fruit.

I don't know why your non-pumpkin beer showed similar fates...

For what it's worth...

 

[rekoob]

I did the skim read on the topic...

Was real pumpkin used in this boil?

When was it added?

If it didn't come from a can, fruits are generally sterile unless the hull has been breached by another organism or injury. Fresh fruit can become contaminated from the moment the brewers cuts into it with an unsanitized knife. Then possibly when laid on an unsanitized cutting board, exposure to air etc.

Therefor if the fruit was added to the boil late, it is possible for a number of organisms to have survived to fermentation...

I understand this might be a fat chance, but as an avid preserver of all things yum, I choose to freeze my pumpkin instead of canning it due to infection risks with this fruit.

I don't know why your non-pumpkin beer showed similar fates...

For what it's worth...

Good points made and also the reason I can't wrap my head around both beers having same issue.

Yes, I'm new at this but have already noticed that for my beers that are over the 5% ABV range, 2-3 weeks seems not enough for reasonable flavor development, and they are better at 5-6 weeks (I age at 68F after SG stops dropping). This might be less important if you have high-quality temperature controls for fermentation.

So buy a couple more carboys (or more kegs if you have the cash), and have a longer queue of beers mellowing out before putting them on tab. Sure it takes a few more weeks for a specific batch to be on tap, but the quality will be higher at tapping instead of having it improve more slowly in the fridge while you are drinking it.

You are so right, I absolutly need more kegs. Having three taps and seven kegs is no where near enough for my liking.

 

[Rev2010]

Good points made and also the reason I can't wrap my head around both beers having same issue.

It definitely has zero to do with the pumpkin. I use puree and the same brand (Libby's) for over 7 batches now and never has there been anything like this. I use it in the mash btw.

Nah, this is now seeming like I am just that new to kegging that I was completely oblivious that the beer still needs a conditioning period just as bottling does. For bottling I always figured the main bulk of the time was waiting for the yeast to eat the priming sugar and for the CO2 to absorb into the beer. I always did notice that a bit more time in the fridge also made for better tasting beer, but since there is no priming sugar when force carbing and being it was two weeks at 37 degrees I figured that would be equivalent to two weeks in the fridge for bottle carbed beer. Apparently I was quite wrong, at least that's how it's appearing. I'll need a little more time to do tastes and report back. But I was wow'd last night at the change just from this weekend. Sometimes I really wish I could know just what the F is going on inside beer and how things can change so much in a week or two if let sit LOL.

So again, I'll taste again this weekend and report back. No need wasting anymore beer until then, but I think the issue was just that simple - needs more time to condition. My only curiosity now is will it condition under the cold temps in just as much time as it takes for bottle priming to carbonate and condition? So far the signs look promising, just won't know until given more time and testing.


Rev.

 

[2Kegger]

It sounds like you are very detailed in your cleaning process, but I had an issue once with my auto siphon. I always run sanitizer through it like everything else, but i got some off flavors once and took a closer look. the portion of the hose that attached to the siphon needed replacement. I just got a new hose and all was good with the next batch. That wouldn't explain the metallic flavor, but...

Also, as a side note, I saw someone posted about the CO2 adding metallic flavor. That's true. I tried kegging a red wine I made. It tasted awful on CO2. It had a distinctive metal flavor. I dumped the carbonation and bottled it, and it tasted great.

I have 5 kegs in my keezer and they all work great. Some I bought used, some new (made in India). I usually condition in the carboys and transfer to the kegs when they are ready to serve.

Good luck!

 

[landonw32]

double post

 

[landonw32]

Did you purge the dip tubes after you cleaned and rinsed? Sometimes liquid will stay in due to suction so you have to press the poppet valve to drop the liquid out. It is possible some stayed in until you kegged and mixed with the beer.

 

[Rev2010]

Did you purge the dip tubes after you cleaned and rinsed? Sometimes liquid will stay in due to suction so you have to press the poppet valve to drop the liquid out. It is possible some stayed in until you kegged and mixed with the beer.

No, but I pushed 2.5 gallons of sanitizer through both kegs/lines right afterward.


Rev.

 

[squash1978]

**UPDATE**

Tasted the water when I got home, it's carbonated though not as carbonated as the beer obviously but there is no off taste to it, tastes like typical soda water really. But, more importantly I tasted both beers and to my surprise in my pumpkin ale the off taste has gone down by 50 or more percent! The Belgian Saison also exhibits a bit less of the taste with more of the beer taste coming through but it's still a bit strong, maybe say the taste has dropped 20 percent. However, the Belgian Saison was one week younger than the pumpkin, I rushed it honestly. Well, the fermentation was aggressive and it finished so I kegged after only two weeks, usually I wait one extra week in the fermenter after the krausen has dropped and the surface is clear before bottling in the past. Since I had a party coming and fermentation appeared done and I had a 1.005 FG I figured it would be ready.

Looking back I'm now thinking the beers just need to condition in the kegs a little longer. I'd thought 2 weeks cold conditioning would basically replace my bottling regimen which was 3 weeks in the bottle and a few days in the fridge, guess I was wrong? I was partly steered to that thought process seeing many on here simply keg when they hit FG and drink after two weeks set and forget carbing. Maybe my beers just need longer?

Well, I can breathe a sigh of relief. I'll report back when I take another sample this weekend.

Rev.

Almost every beer that I've kegged never really tastes all that great without some conditioning. After 1 week it tastes terrible. After 2 weeks it tastes noticeably better but still off. After 3 weeks it tastes great. When I first started kegging I tried burst carbing it so that it would be carbonated within a week. I've since learned that my beers need some time in the keg and just use the set it and forget it method and just wait.

I'd be willing to bet both of your beers will turn out fine with a little more time--especially since you've noticed an improvement already.

 

[Rev2010]

**Update**

This past weekend was to be the beer tasting but I'd canceled it due to the taste last weekend. This past weekend was three weeks in the keg. The taste is still improving but still going a little slow. I'd say the off taste has now dropped 60% which is only about 10% better than last week. Interestingly enough, my sister & brother in law came over like they do most weekends, and they both shared my pumpkin and said they didn't really notice the taste in question that I described. He did say it doesn't taste at its prime yet though, but as he drank it he would comment that it's tasting better along the way. He actually had a second pint. Then my very old friend came over later that night just to hang out anyway. He noticed more of the taste I was referring to but clearly wasn't as bothered by it as I. He also had a second pint. So, they still seemed to like it.

Again, I've come to realize it simply must just be young beer and just need a bit more time in the fermenter from now on, or even better, as the wife had said before I even ordered my kegs she was pushing me to buy more kegs. Yes, that's my wife... she thinks ahead. I didn't, being conservative with the spending, but I now will likely order three more kegs so I can keg the beer and let them sit another two weeks at room temp which would free up fermenters for me to keep brewing.

So, either way, I'm going to allow two more weeks for each beer for a bit more warm conditioning. I'm curious to whether the Belgian Saison would condition further if I removed it from the kegerator and let it warm to room temp - but I will make a separate thread for that.



Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

**OK, latest update**

The taste is from the lines! Well the lines primarily and I'm sure some green beer taste was in their originally. I'd done some more Googling and found this thread right here on HBTalk: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/beer-line-tests-solution-plastic-taste-60380/

So, I checked online today to see how much beer is in my 12 feet of lines and for 3/16" it comes out to 2oz (1/6 oz per foot of line). So I did a test with both beers, the pumpkin and the belgian saison. I poured off the first two ounces into one glass then poured another two ounces into a different glass. Started with the Saison. Smelled the second "clean" pull and it smelled fine, like a beer. Tasted it, tasted fine. Then I smelled the first sample, holy moly!! The off smell was very strong. I've been calling it a soapy/metallic smell but I'm guessing it could simply be a plastic smell. Then I tasted it, awful!! Very strong off taste, I spit it out it was that bad.

Moved onto the pumpkin ale. Second "clean" sample smelled great! Tasted it - GREAT! Smelled the first pull sample- awful!! Same exact off smell as the saison. Tasted it - you guessed it... awful!!

I'm guessing I "thought" the flavor was dissipating over time originally simply due to some dilution pulling pints.

So the question is, does this fade on brand new beer lines or do I really need to change out my lines. I really don't want to have to keep pouring off 2oz each pull.


Rev.

 

[Kee]

**OK, latest update**

The taste is from the lines! Well the lines primarily and I'm sure some green beer taste was in their originally. I'd done some more Googling and found this thread right here on HBTalk: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/beer-line-tests-solution-plastic-taste-60380/

So, I checked online today to see how much beer is in my 12 feet of lines and for 3/16" it comes out to 2oz (1/6 oz per foot of line). So I did a test with both beers, the pumpkin and the belgian saison. I poured off the first two ounces into one glass then poured another two ounces into a different glass. Started with the Saison. Smelled the second "clean" pull and it smelled fine, like a beer. Tasted it, tasted fine. Then I smelled the first sample, holy moly!! The off smell was very strong. I've been calling it a soapy/metallic smell but I'm guessing it could simply be a plastic smell. Then I tasted it, awful!! Very strong off taste, I spit it out it was that bad.

Moved onto the pumpkin ale. Second "clean" sample smelled great! Tasted it - GREAT! Smelled the first pull sample- awful!! Same exact off smell as the saison. Tasted it - you guessed it... awful!!

I'm guessing I "thought" the flavor was dissipating over time originally simply due to some dilution pulling pints.

So the question is, does this fade on brand new beer lines or do I really need to change out my lines. I really don't want to have to keep pouring off 2oz each pull.


Rev.

Beer lines should never have this problem. I have not idea what is going on. But the good news is that lines are cheap. I would place an order or go by the local homebrew store and change those out.

 

[Rev2010]

Beer lines should never have this problem. I have not idea what is going on. But the good news is that lines are cheap. I would place an order or go by the local homebrew store and change those out.

I agree, they shouldn't cause this taste, but it's there no doubt and Kal has a whole thread about it that is 24 pages long, so it's apparently very real. I haven't read through his whole thread but will now. The one other thing I'm wondering, when I cleaned by lines before use I only ran 2 quarts of the cleaning solution through (flushed and sanitized after of course). I see many on here stop the flow and let the cleaner sit in the lines for 15-30 minutes or so. I wonder if possibly re-cleaning and letting the solution sit in the lines for a while would rectify the issue?


Rev.

 

[ubnserved]

I let all of my new/used items soak for several days on bleach water including lines after scrubbing. That includes everything that will contact my beer that has not been in my possession for my last brew. I also do this every time for kegs. After this has been done I scrub and rinse until I can no longer smell bleach after that I sanitize for my brew. My mix for bleach is 2 caps for 5 gallon keg. I usually leave kegs and lines on sanitizer for 2 days under light pressure I also pump entire contents of keg through lines for both sanitizer and bleach.
I have never gotten an infection (knock on wood ) and never had off flavors other than young beer flavors.

This seems to be a common problem as stated by your last post. Did you find a brand name(s) on the hoses that are known for off flavors?

 

[Rev2010]

Did you find a brand name(s) on the hoses that are known for off flavors?

I just read through all 24 pages of Kal's thread... PHEW!!! Long read. Too many brands of tubing causing off tastes to list. Read the first few pages of his thread. So, I think I will likely go for Tygon Silver tubing, I don't care about the higher price for the tubing, I just don't want to waste beer and more time trying to see if this taste fades, it's such a shame to have to be subjected to this. These were the first two beers of my brewing season (I've been stopping during the warmer months since I couldn't temp control) and it really had me feeling down as I didn't know if it was my beers. Now that I can replicate this 100% pouring off the first two ounces I know it's not something *I* did wrong. These two beers were my first time kegging after having bottled for nearly 4 years now. I have the Cream Of Three Crops ready to keg next weekend but it will only be on gas for 2 weeks before I connect the liquid lines. I'll have the new lines delivered and installed by then. I'll report back, will be a few weeks though.


Rev.

 

[ubnserved]

Congrats on kegging saves so much time and energy. (when going right) I have only bottled when trying to empty a keg to brew more beer. I am lucky and have a kick a$$ wife that got me started and when she did she got everything I needed to keg and bottle right off the bat. I just wish she liked beer.

 

[Kee]

I just read through all 24 pages of Kal's thread... PHEW!!! Long read. Too many brands of tubing causing off tastes to list. Read the first few pages of his thread. So, I think I will likely go for Tygon Silver tubing, I don't care about the higher price for the tubing, I just don't want to waste beer and more time trying to see if this taste fades, it's such a shame to have to be subjected to this. These were the first two beers of my brewing season (I've been stopping during the warmer months since I couldn't temp control) and it really had me feeling down as I didn't know if it was my beers. Now that I can replicate this 100% pouring off the first two ounces I know it's not something *I* did wrong. These two beers were my first time kegging after having bottled for nearly 4 years now. I have the Cream Of Three Crops ready to keg next weekend but it will only be on gas for 2 weeks before I connect the liquid lines. I'll have the new lines delivered and installed by then. I'll report back, will be a few weeks though.



Rev.

I am glad that your persistence found the problem. I never knew that tubing could be such an issue.

I worked at a place one time where the coffee had a peculiar nasty taste and someone finally sniffed the freshly opened paper coffee cups. They all had a strong smell of perfume. There was nothing wrong with the coffee (until it was poured into the cups).

 

[paperairplane]

Glad you figured it out. I have bought 40' or so of beer line from keg connection and never had any issues.

I don't sweat cleaning lines too much - get a spare keg and keep star san in it. When you swap kegs, hook that up and run a few pints through. Done.

You're going to be so happy kegging - forget this whole 'green' beer idea. If you brew well, you can easily be drinking 4-5% beers on day 30.

 

[Rev2010]

Just went ahead and ordered this stuff from Morebeer: Ultra Barrier Silver™ Antimicrobial and PVC Free Beer Tubing - (3/16 in ID)
http://morebeer.com/products/ultra-...crobial-pvc-free-beer-tubing-316-id-foot.html

Should do the trick. It sounds very much like Tygon Silver but is available with the thicker 7/16" OD whereas Tygon's only comes in 5/16". Also clear as well. Anyhow, hoping this will be the end of the taste problems. Should receive the order pretty soon so I'm figuring by this weekend I should be able to report back.


Rev.

 

[Callacave]

Rev...Some people are more sensitive to that plastic taste. I guess I am.

I tried those new "Ultra Barrier" lines, and at first I thought all was ok, but realized when pouring a sample, or a pint 24 hours later I noticed an off taste.

Switched back to my Bevlex Ultra, and they are by far the best lines you can get. I stopped using them initially because they're a little difficult to work with, and aren't as flexible as other lines, but I've got John Guest fittings and everything is awesome. I can pull 4 oz samples for people with no flavor impact.

Not trying to scare you, but I think you'll find out those Ultra Barrier lines are better than the standard PVC Bevlex lines, but still not as good as the Bevlex Ultra. That is... unless you're pouring a pint every few hours

 

[Rev2010]

Not trying to scare you, but I think you'll find out those Ultra Barrier lines are better than the standard PVC Bevlex lines, but still not as good as the Bevlex Ultra.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm not scared, even if it's a 50% improvement I think I could live with that. I didn't go with the Bevlex due to the reported stiffness and how hard it can be to attach to 1/4" barbs. Mostly due to the flexibility because I have a 3-tap KegCo kegerator and space inside is a bit tight. I don't want to have to wrangle the lines when moving things around or connecting/disconnecting.

For the Ultra Silver I find it interesting they note, "The tubing was lab tested by the famed Weihenstephan University in Germany and then prior to release was tested for years at The New Belgium Brewery." I'm a big fan of the Weihenstephan brewery and all they've done/are doing. Wonder how true this is and in what context they tested it for (taste? anti-microbial properties only? etc).

It looked to me this was closest to Tygon Silver which is highly rated but I really did want the 7/16 OD and it's clear to boot so I figured I'd give it a chance. The vinyl tubing I have now... it's terrible... not sure how more people aren't complaining about it. Even if I were just super sensitive to it I think the average person could still detect it. Actually, other family members have but diluted into a full pint. More interestingly, when I'd pour them a second pint immediately after finishing the first (about 30 minutes later) they'd note how it's "getting better".

Well, I hope it works out cause taking apart the tower innards are a major PITA since it's such a tight space. I can certainly live with a minimum of a 50% improvement, hopefully I'll get more. A tiny taint won't really be noticeable in a full pint. What I have now though is terrible!

Btw, did you try the standard Ultra Barrier or Ultra Barrier Silver lines?


Rev.

 

[bemerritt]

Damn, I'm going to go home and have some 2 oz tasters just for fun and see if I notice a difference.

 

[wardens355]

I have switched to Tygon B-44-3 1/8" ID tubing and am really liking it because it reduced the length of beer tubing to around 2 to 3 feet for a proper pour and there is very little beer sitting in the serving lines between pours/drinking sessions. I still use picnic taps and was using the Ultra Barrier tubing, but found I needed 12' or so for each keg to get a proper pour. With the 12-foot 3/16" lines, approx 2.2 ounces sits in the lines, which is 13% of a pint pour or around 50% of a taster. With the 3-foot 1/8" lines, approx 0.2 ounces sits in the lines, which is 1.5% of a pint, 5% of a taster. The switch has reduced clutter in my freezer, reduced volume of beer sitting in my serving lines, and the tubing is much cheaper ($0.82/ft vs $1.69/ft, then factor in much less length of tubing needed). I did need to find some SS fittings to connect the tubing with the disconnect and picnic taps, but factoring that in the 1/8" lines are still cheaper.

Anyhow, you'll probably be fine with the new tubing, but wanted to share my experience if you still encounter more problems.

 

[bemerritt]

I have switched to Tygon B-44-3 1/8" ID tubing and am really liking it because it reduced the length of beer tubing to around 2 to 3 feet for a proper pour and there is very little beer sitting in the serving lines between pours/drinking sessions. I still use picnic taps and was using the Ultra Barrier tubing, but found I needed 12' or so for each keg to get a proper pour. With the 12-foot 3/16" lines, approx 2.2 ounces sits in the lines, which is 13% of a pint pour or around 50% of a taster. With the 3-foot 1/8" lines, approx 0.2 ounces sits in the lines, which is 1.5% of a pint, 5% of a taster. The switch has reduced clutter in my freezer, reduced volume of beer sitting in my serving lines, and the tubing is much cheaper ($0.82/ft vs $1.69/ft, then factor in much less length of tubing needed). I did need to find some SS fittings to connect the tubing with the disconnect and picnic taps, but factoring that in the 1/8" lines are still cheaper.

Anyhow, you'll probably be fine with the new tubing, but wanted to share my experience if you still encounter more problems.

Interesting, not to derail the thread too much, but do you have any links to the fittings? I would love shorter lines in my keezer.

 

[Callacave]

Btw, did you try the standard Ultra Barrier or Ultra Barrier Silver lines?

I used Silver. I was surprised that I was getting an off flavor from these because of the good things I've read. Wonder if that line is more oxygen permeable? Although at cold temps and say only 24 hours I doubt beer in the lines would oxidize, but then again it is a small amount of beer in those lines, so maybe it's possible?

Once I hooked up the bevlex ultra it was so obvious how much better they are. You do need about 20 feet to get a good pour, but I also have used mixer sticks in my dip tube to provide resistance, so you might be able to shorten the line using sticks

 

[wardens355]

Interesting, not to derail the thread too much, but do you have any links to the fittings? I would love shorter lines in my keezer.

These are the fittings:

http://midwestbev.com/7117.aspx

http://midwestbev.com/1/4NutStainlessSteel1001.aspx

http://midwestbev.com/3014.aspx

Tubing from McMaster Carr under "Beverage, Food, and Dairy Clear Tygon PVC Tubing":

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-plastic-and-rubber-tubing/=ugedrs

Pics:







I have 1/8" barbed swivel nuts on the disconnect, 1/8" Tygon tubing, a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter, an extremely short 1/4" Tygon connector, and then the picnic tap. I put clamps over the 1/4" connections, but don't bother with the 1/8".

 

[Rev2010]

I used Silver. I was surprised that I was getting an off flavor from these because of the good things I've read. Wonder if that line is more oxygen permeable?

The company claims, "Resists oxygen permeation 70% better than traditional PVC tubing" so I don't think it would be oxidation.

Once I hooked up the bevlex ultra it was so obvious how much better they are. You do need about 20 feet to get a good pour, but I also have used mixer sticks in my dip tube to provide resistance, so you might be able to shorten the line using sticks

Unfortunately, my triple tap kegerator is a bit tight with three kegs inside and 12 foot coils of liquid line sitting on top of each keg. I just know the stiffness of the Bev-Seal tubing will be a headache inside it. Not sure how much more space it would take going from 7/16" OD tubing at 12' lengths to 20'+ or so of 5/16" Bev-Seal, but I'd imagine it would be noticeable?

Well anyway, my tubing will be here tomorrow but I'm also switching out to MFL disconnects as I originally got the barbed QD's when I ordered my kegerator. Makes cleaning/sanitizing by hand pumping through the faucet more a hassle having to keep the QD pin open or disassemble each time. The liquid QD's won't be here until Monday, so I won't be able to report back on the Ultra Barrier Silver until sometime next week.


Rev.

 

[Callacave]

Good to know about the oxygen permeability.

Yeah Rev, I can see where you'd probably have a big spaghetti mess in your kegerator trying to keep 60' of rigid tubing from getting in the way of everything.

I built a keezer, so it makes it a little easier, but it's still damn full with beer line all over the place.

I think in the end you'll be much happier with the EJ tubing compared to your PVC lines, but I'm just anal when it comes to those plastic flavors. I hate to even pour out 2 oz eveytime I want a brew.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Sub'd.