Just tasted my first two kegged beers - baaad... what the heck happened??

[Rev2010]

**Update**

This past weekend was to be the beer tasting but I'd canceled it due to the taste last weekend. This past weekend was three weeks in the keg. The taste is still improving but still going a little slow. I'd say the off taste has now dropped 60% which is only about 10% better than last week. Interestingly enough, my sister & brother in law came over like they do most weekends, and they both shared my pumpkin and said they didn't really notice the taste in question that I described. He did say it doesn't taste at its prime yet though, but as he drank it he would comment that it's tasting better along the way. He actually had a second pint. Then my very old friend came over later that night just to hang out anyway. He noticed more of the taste I was referring to but clearly wasn't as bothered by it as I. He also had a second pint. So, they still seemed to like it.

Again, I've come to realize it simply must just be young beer and just need a bit more time in the fermenter from now on, or even better, as the wife had said before I even ordered my kegs she was pushing me to buy more kegs. Yes, that's my wife... she thinks ahead. I didn't, being conservative with the spending, but I now will likely order three more kegs so I can keg the beer and let them sit another two weeks at room temp which would free up fermenters for me to keep brewing.

So, either way, I'm going to allow two more weeks for each beer for a bit more warm conditioning. I'm curious to whether the Belgian Saison would condition further if I removed it from the kegerator and let it warm to room temp - but I will make a separate thread for that.



Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

**OK, latest update**

The taste is from the lines! Well the lines primarily and I'm sure some green beer taste was in their originally. I'd done some more Googling and found this thread right here on HBTalk: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/beer-line-tests-solution-plastic-taste-60380/

So, I checked online today to see how much beer is in my 12 feet of lines and for 3/16" it comes out to 2oz (1/6 oz per foot of line). So I did a test with both beers, the pumpkin and the belgian saison. I poured off the first two ounces into one glass then poured another two ounces into a different glass. Started with the Saison. Smelled the second "clean" pull and it smelled fine, like a beer. Tasted it, tasted fine. Then I smelled the first sample, holy moly!! The off smell was very strong. I've been calling it a soapy/metallic smell but I'm guessing it could simply be a plastic smell. Then I tasted it, awful!! Very strong off taste, I spit it out it was that bad.

Moved onto the pumpkin ale. Second "clean" sample smelled great! Tasted it - GREAT! Smelled the first pull sample- awful!! Same exact off smell as the saison. Tasted it - you guessed it... awful!!

I'm guessing I "thought" the flavor was dissipating over time originally simply due to some dilution pulling pints.

So the question is, does this fade on brand new beer lines or do I really need to change out my lines. I really don't want to have to keep pouring off 2oz each pull.


Rev.

 

[Kee]

**OK, latest update**

The taste is from the lines! Well the lines primarily and I'm sure some green beer taste was in their originally. I'd done some more Googling and found this thread right here on HBTalk: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/beer-line-tests-solution-plastic-taste-60380/

So, I checked online today to see how much beer is in my 12 feet of lines and for 3/16" it comes out to 2oz (1/6 oz per foot of line). So I did a test with both beers, the pumpkin and the belgian saison. I poured off the first two ounces into one glass then poured another two ounces into a different glass. Started with the Saison. Smelled the second "clean" pull and it smelled fine, like a beer. Tasted it, tasted fine. Then I smelled the first sample, holy moly!! The off smell was very strong. I've been calling it a soapy/metallic smell but I'm guessing it could simply be a plastic smell. Then I tasted it, awful!! Very strong off taste, I spit it out it was that bad.

Moved onto the pumpkin ale. Second "clean" sample smelled great! Tasted it - GREAT! Smelled the first pull sample- awful!! Same exact off smell as the saison. Tasted it - you guessed it... awful!!

I'm guessing I "thought" the flavor was dissipating over time originally simply due to some dilution pulling pints.

So the question is, does this fade on brand new beer lines or do I really need to change out my lines. I really don't want to have to keep pouring off 2oz each pull.


Rev.

Beer lines should never have this problem. I have not idea what is going on. But the good news is that lines are cheap. I would place an order or go by the local homebrew store and change those out.

 

[Rev2010]

Beer lines should never have this problem. I have not idea what is going on. But the good news is that lines are cheap. I would place an order or go by the local homebrew store and change those out.

I agree, they shouldn't cause this taste, but it's there no doubt and Kal has a whole thread about it that is 24 pages long, so it's apparently very real. I haven't read through his whole thread but will now. The one other thing I'm wondering, when I cleaned by lines before use I only ran 2 quarts of the cleaning solution through (flushed and sanitized after of course). I see many on here stop the flow and let the cleaner sit in the lines for 15-30 minutes or so. I wonder if possibly re-cleaning and letting the solution sit in the lines for a while would rectify the issue?


Rev.

 

[ubnserved]

I let all of my new/used items soak for several days on bleach water including lines after scrubbing. That includes everything that will contact my beer that has not been in my possession for my last brew. I also do this every time for kegs. After this has been done I scrub and rinse until I can no longer smell bleach after that I sanitize for my brew. My mix for bleach is 2 caps for 5 gallon keg. I usually leave kegs and lines on sanitizer for 2 days under light pressure I also pump entire contents of keg through lines for both sanitizer and bleach.
I have never gotten an infection (knock on wood ) and never had off flavors other than young beer flavors.

This seems to be a common problem as stated by your last post. Did you find a brand name(s) on the hoses that are known for off flavors?

 

[Rev2010]

Did you find a brand name(s) on the hoses that are known for off flavors?

I just read through all 24 pages of Kal's thread... PHEW!!! Long read. Too many brands of tubing causing off tastes to list. Read the first few pages of his thread. So, I think I will likely go for Tygon Silver tubing, I don't care about the higher price for the tubing, I just don't want to waste beer and more time trying to see if this taste fades, it's such a shame to have to be subjected to this. These were the first two beers of my brewing season (I've been stopping during the warmer months since I couldn't temp control) and it really had me feeling down as I didn't know if it was my beers. Now that I can replicate this 100% pouring off the first two ounces I know it's not something *I* did wrong. These two beers were my first time kegging after having bottled for nearly 4 years now. I have the Cream Of Three Crops ready to keg next weekend but it will only be on gas for 2 weeks before I connect the liquid lines. I'll have the new lines delivered and installed by then. I'll report back, will be a few weeks though.


Rev.

 

[ubnserved]

Congrats on kegging saves so much time and energy. (when going right) I have only bottled when trying to empty a keg to brew more beer. I am lucky and have a kick a$$ wife that got me started and when she did she got everything I needed to keg and bottle right off the bat. I just wish she liked beer.

 

[Kee]

I just read through all 24 pages of Kal's thread... PHEW!!! Long read. Too many brands of tubing causing off tastes to list. Read the first few pages of his thread. So, I think I will likely go for Tygon Silver tubing, I don't care about the higher price for the tubing, I just don't want to waste beer and more time trying to see if this taste fades, it's such a shame to have to be subjected to this. These were the first two beers of my brewing season (I've been stopping during the warmer months since I couldn't temp control) and it really had me feeling down as I didn't know if it was my beers. Now that I can replicate this 100% pouring off the first two ounces I know it's not something *I* did wrong. These two beers were my first time kegging after having bottled for nearly 4 years now. I have the Cream Of Three Crops ready to keg next weekend but it will only be on gas for 2 weeks before I connect the liquid lines. I'll have the new lines delivered and installed by then. I'll report back, will be a few weeks though.



Rev.

I am glad that your persistence found the problem. I never knew that tubing could be such an issue.

I worked at a place one time where the coffee had a peculiar nasty taste and someone finally sniffed the freshly opened paper coffee cups. They all had a strong smell of perfume. There was nothing wrong with the coffee (until it was poured into the cups).

 

[paperairplane]

Glad you figured it out. I have bought 40' or so of beer line from keg connection and never had any issues.

I don't sweat cleaning lines too much - get a spare keg and keep star san in it. When you swap kegs, hook that up and run a few pints through. Done.

You're going to be so happy kegging - forget this whole 'green' beer idea. If you brew well, you can easily be drinking 4-5% beers on day 30.

 

[Rev2010]

Just went ahead and ordered this stuff from Morebeer: Ultra Barrier Silver™ Antimicrobial and PVC Free Beer Tubing - (3/16 in ID)
http://morebeer.com/products/ultra-...crobial-pvc-free-beer-tubing-316-id-foot.html

Should do the trick. It sounds very much like Tygon Silver but is available with the thicker 7/16" OD whereas Tygon's only comes in 5/16". Also clear as well. Anyhow, hoping this will be the end of the taste problems. Should receive the order pretty soon so I'm figuring by this weekend I should be able to report back.


Rev.

 

[Callacave]

Rev...Some people are more sensitive to that plastic taste. I guess I am.

I tried those new "Ultra Barrier" lines, and at first I thought all was ok, but realized when pouring a sample, or a pint 24 hours later I noticed an off taste.

Switched back to my Bevlex Ultra, and they are by far the best lines you can get. I stopped using them initially because they're a little difficult to work with, and aren't as flexible as other lines, but I've got John Guest fittings and everything is awesome. I can pull 4 oz samples for people with no flavor impact.

Not trying to scare you, but I think you'll find out those Ultra Barrier lines are better than the standard PVC Bevlex lines, but still not as good as the Bevlex Ultra. That is... unless you're pouring a pint every few hours

 

[Rev2010]

Not trying to scare you, but I think you'll find out those Ultra Barrier lines are better than the standard PVC Bevlex lines, but still not as good as the Bevlex Ultra.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm not scared, even if it's a 50% improvement I think I could live with that. I didn't go with the Bevlex due to the reported stiffness and how hard it can be to attach to 1/4" barbs. Mostly due to the flexibility because I have a 3-tap KegCo kegerator and space inside is a bit tight. I don't want to have to wrangle the lines when moving things around or connecting/disconnecting.

For the Ultra Silver I find it interesting they note, "The tubing was lab tested by the famed Weihenstephan University in Germany and then prior to release was tested for years at The New Belgium Brewery." I'm a big fan of the Weihenstephan brewery and all they've done/are doing. Wonder how true this is and in what context they tested it for (taste? anti-microbial properties only? etc).

It looked to me this was closest to Tygon Silver which is highly rated but I really did want the 7/16 OD and it's clear to boot so I figured I'd give it a chance. The vinyl tubing I have now... it's terrible... not sure how more people aren't complaining about it. Even if I were just super sensitive to it I think the average person could still detect it. Actually, other family members have but diluted into a full pint. More interestingly, when I'd pour them a second pint immediately after finishing the first (about 30 minutes later) they'd note how it's "getting better".

Well, I hope it works out cause taking apart the tower innards are a major PITA since it's such a tight space. I can certainly live with a minimum of a 50% improvement, hopefully I'll get more. A tiny taint won't really be noticeable in a full pint. What I have now though is terrible!

Btw, did you try the standard Ultra Barrier or Ultra Barrier Silver lines?


Rev.

 

[bemerritt]

Damn, I'm going to go home and have some 2 oz tasters just for fun and see if I notice a difference.

 

[wardens355]

I have switched to Tygon B-44-3 1/8" ID tubing and am really liking it because it reduced the length of beer tubing to around 2 to 3 feet for a proper pour and there is very little beer sitting in the serving lines between pours/drinking sessions. I still use picnic taps and was using the Ultra Barrier tubing, but found I needed 12' or so for each keg to get a proper pour. With the 12-foot 3/16" lines, approx 2.2 ounces sits in the lines, which is 13% of a pint pour or around 50% of a taster. With the 3-foot 1/8" lines, approx 0.2 ounces sits in the lines, which is 1.5% of a pint, 5% of a taster. The switch has reduced clutter in my freezer, reduced volume of beer sitting in my serving lines, and the tubing is much cheaper ($0.82/ft vs $1.69/ft, then factor in much less length of tubing needed). I did need to find some SS fittings to connect the tubing with the disconnect and picnic taps, but factoring that in the 1/8" lines are still cheaper.

Anyhow, you'll probably be fine with the new tubing, but wanted to share my experience if you still encounter more problems.

 

[bemerritt]

I have switched to Tygon B-44-3 1/8" ID tubing and am really liking it because it reduced the length of beer tubing to around 2 to 3 feet for a proper pour and there is very little beer sitting in the serving lines between pours/drinking sessions. I still use picnic taps and was using the Ultra Barrier tubing, but found I needed 12' or so for each keg to get a proper pour. With the 12-foot 3/16" lines, approx 2.2 ounces sits in the lines, which is 13% of a pint pour or around 50% of a taster. With the 3-foot 1/8" lines, approx 0.2 ounces sits in the lines, which is 1.5% of a pint, 5% of a taster. The switch has reduced clutter in my freezer, reduced volume of beer sitting in my serving lines, and the tubing is much cheaper ($0.82/ft vs $1.69/ft, then factor in much less length of tubing needed). I did need to find some SS fittings to connect the tubing with the disconnect and picnic taps, but factoring that in the 1/8" lines are still cheaper.

Anyhow, you'll probably be fine with the new tubing, but wanted to share my experience if you still encounter more problems.

Interesting, not to derail the thread too much, but do you have any links to the fittings? I would love shorter lines in my keezer.

 

[Callacave]

Btw, did you try the standard Ultra Barrier or Ultra Barrier Silver lines?

I used Silver. I was surprised that I was getting an off flavor from these because of the good things I've read. Wonder if that line is more oxygen permeable? Although at cold temps and say only 24 hours I doubt beer in the lines would oxidize, but then again it is a small amount of beer in those lines, so maybe it's possible?

Once I hooked up the bevlex ultra it was so obvious how much better they are. You do need about 20 feet to get a good pour, but I also have used mixer sticks in my dip tube to provide resistance, so you might be able to shorten the line using sticks

 

[wardens355]

Interesting, not to derail the thread too much, but do you have any links to the fittings? I would love shorter lines in my keezer.

These are the fittings:

http://midwestbev.com/7117.aspx

http://midwestbev.com/1/4NutStainlessSteel1001.aspx

http://midwestbev.com/3014.aspx

Tubing from McMaster Carr under "Beverage, Food, and Dairy Clear Tygon PVC Tubing":

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-plastic-and-rubber-tubing/=ugedrs

Pics:







I have 1/8" barbed swivel nuts on the disconnect, 1/8" Tygon tubing, a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter, an extremely short 1/4" Tygon connector, and then the picnic tap. I put clamps over the 1/4" connections, but don't bother with the 1/8".

 

[Rev2010]

I used Silver. I was surprised that I was getting an off flavor from these because of the good things I've read. Wonder if that line is more oxygen permeable?

The company claims, "Resists oxygen permeation 70% better than traditional PVC tubing" so I don't think it would be oxidation.

Once I hooked up the bevlex ultra it was so obvious how much better they are. You do need about 20 feet to get a good pour, but I also have used mixer sticks in my dip tube to provide resistance, so you might be able to shorten the line using sticks

Unfortunately, my triple tap kegerator is a bit tight with three kegs inside and 12 foot coils of liquid line sitting on top of each keg. I just know the stiffness of the Bev-Seal tubing will be a headache inside it. Not sure how much more space it would take going from 7/16" OD tubing at 12' lengths to 20'+ or so of 5/16" Bev-Seal, but I'd imagine it would be noticeable?

Well anyway, my tubing will be here tomorrow but I'm also switching out to MFL disconnects as I originally got the barbed QD's when I ordered my kegerator. Makes cleaning/sanitizing by hand pumping through the faucet more a hassle having to keep the QD pin open or disassemble each time. The liquid QD's won't be here until Monday, so I won't be able to report back on the Ultra Barrier Silver until sometime next week.


Rev.

 

[Callacave]

Good to know about the oxygen permeability.

Yeah Rev, I can see where you'd probably have a big spaghetti mess in your kegerator trying to keep 60' of rigid tubing from getting in the way of everything.

I built a keezer, so it makes it a little easier, but it's still damn full with beer line all over the place.

I think in the end you'll be much happier with the EJ tubing compared to your PVC lines, but I'm just anal when it comes to those plastic flavors. I hate to even pour out 2 oz eveytime I want a brew.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Sub'd.

 

[Rev2010]

So I installed the Ultra Barrier Silver lines last night. God I hate changing out beer line! Anyhow, I left them in the kegerator overnight before connecting to the keg to cool. Each line is 12' length and I cleaned with BLC, flushed the lines with warm water, then ran StarSan through them. This morning I connected the line to my Belgian Saison and drew a small amount just to get beer in the line. Came back an hour and drew a sample, not to taste, just wanted to check the pour. Tons of foam. Tried another pull, Tons of foam. I'd read foaming being the biggest complaint with these lines but I've seen others on here and in reviews with my line length or less say they have no foaming. Anyhow, I'm off to work and will pull another sample tonight to also taste the beer after it's been sitting for 12 hours. If it's still foaming I don't know what the heck I'm going to do as it was so much foam that just sat there not really going down which is even worse than having to pour off the first 2oz using the vinyl lines. I know, Bevlex (or Bevseal, whatever it's called), but I really can't deal with 20-30 foot rigid lines inside my triple tap kegerator. I'll report back tonight.

Rev.

 

[wardens355]

Tons of foam. Tried another pull, Tons of foam. I'd read foaming being the biggest complaint with these lines but I've seen others on here and in reviews with my line length or less say they have no foaming.

I had foam issues with this line as well. Too expensive to have 15' or longer per keg, which is why I switched to the smaller 1/8" Tygon tubing that I showed in an earlier post. I bought a 50' roll of it and it will probably last me for a couple years or so with good line cleaning and about 2-3 feet per keg.

 

[dnslater]

Did you have foam issues prior? In my setup, foaming was caused by uneven temps inside my Kegerator. The lines were coiled on top of my kegs, which I found was around 48-50 degrees, while the lower half was 38. I installed a small fan and problem was solved.

 

[Rev2010]

Did you have foam issues prior? In my setup, foaming was caused by uneven temps inside my Kegerator. The lines were coiled on top of my kegs, which I found was around 48-50 degrees, while the lower half was 38. I installed a small fan and problem was solved.

No issues whatsoever prior except for the plastic taste when beer sat in the lines for 2 hours or more, but no foaming at all. My kegerator has a built in fan. Went through my whole pumpkin keg with a perfect pour everytime and having a little of my belgian saison a little at a time also with a perfect pour. Just don't drink too much of the saison since I hit 91% efficiency with it (my typical is 81%) and the yeast attenuated even further down than average. So it's 8.6% ABV, not very sessionable

I was talking with Motobrewer who also has these lines and his issue appears to have resolved itself. He'd mentioned having to just let it since for a while once you get some beer in the lines and then purge a gas bubble that forms in the lines then it's been good since. So I will see what I get tonight when I get home.


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

The results are in! Came home, beer has been in the line for approximately 12 hours.

Started pouring first point, foam. BUT, I noticed there was more beer in the bottom of the glass than this morning - more liquid to foam ratio. Took a taste... perfect! ZERO plastic taste/smell.

So, I figured let me fill a little more and put this glass aside and let the foam settle and pour another. Result? 100% perfect pour! I'm so psyched right now. I'd PM'd with Motobrewer on here earlier today as he has these lines too. He told me it just needed to sit cold at first a few hours and that the foam should go away and he was right. Below is a picture. The beer on the left was the foamy first pour after a little settling and refilling a little. The beer on the right is the second full pour.

After giving this tubing a bit more time and testing I'll post a thread about it rather than continue on here as it would be more helpful to those searching online about it.

 

[Callacave]

Glad to see everything is working out for you Rev.

When you get a chance. Let beer sit in the line for 24 hrs, and pull two samples. First one, just enough to clear line, and the second coming fresh from the keg. Just curious to see if anyone else can detect what I was getting. It's not as foul as your old lines, but was definitely affecting the aroma/flavor for me

 

[Rev2010]

When you get a chance. Let beer sit in the line for 24 hrs, and pull two samples. First one, just enough to clear line, and the second coming fresh from the keg. Just curious to see if anyone else can detect what I was getting. It's not as foul as your old lines, but was definitely affecting the aroma/flavor for me

I'll do this tomorrow evening which will be a full day of beer sitting in the line and report back.


Rev.

 

[The_Bishop]

Just installed Bev-Seal ultra lines in my keezer yesterday. Bought the John Guest fittings for the keg/MFL side. Had to put it on the tower shanks on the other end. If you have a bench vice to hold the fittings, it's not that hard to install. It was more of a pain dealing with the 3 15' lines. Might have to shorten them up a bit; the pour is slow.

Did the install and clean/sanitize/flush routine in the morning. Poured a beer in the evening, about 8 hours later. I never really noticed an 'off' flavor in my kegged beer, until I made an ESB and kept detecting a slight plasticy note in the background which is why I swapped out.

The flavor is *gone*. Not only that but all three taps now have a noticeably 'cleaner' flavor. I'm very happy with the bev-seal line. This afternoon I'll pull another pint and see how it goes.

 

[Rev2010]

The flavor is *gone*. Not only that but all three taps now have a noticeably 'cleaner' flavor. I'm very happy with the bev-seal line. This afternoon I'll pull another pint and see how it goes.

I noticed that too with these silver lines, the beer just tastes clean. Funny too because one of their advertising slogans popped into mind, "to serve beer the way it was meant to taste" or something to that effect. I have the Cream Of Three Crops ale I made kegged and carbonating but it will be a week from Saturday till I start drinking it. Not going to create a review thread on these lines until I try that beer through them as well. I think it will be a good test subject being a lighter styled beer.


Rev.

 

[motobrewer]

Good stuff. These lines are wonky. But the end result is good.

 

[Rev2010]

When you get a chance. Let beer sit in the line for 24 hrs, and pull two samples. First one, just enough to clear line, and the second coming fresh from the keg.

OK, I pulled a small sample (2-3oz) just a few minutes ago, the beer has been sitting in the line for I'd say 23 hours since my last pull last night. Smell - perfect. I could actually now smell the light mintiness in the nose that I'd originally noted when I tasted the FG hydrometer sample. Taste - perfect. No detectable off tastes whatsoever.

So, I pulled a second small sample to then compare to. They taste and smell exactly the same. I still had a little bit of foam but it was no more than an inch which I have no problem with whatsoever. The beer is carbed at 14psi.

I am very very happy with the swap to these lines. I plan to post a review thread but in the spirit of fairness, as I noted earlier I am going to wait until I've also tested them with my cream of three crops beer (got the recipe on here) since it's such a light bodied beer I figure if there's any off tastes it should be even easier to detect.

Rev.

 

[Callacave]

Thanks Rev for the update. Glad to hear those lines are working for you

 

[Rev2010]

Last update before I write a review tomorrow morning. The Ultra Barrier Silver lines are still working out awesome. I've had my Belgian Saison after beer sat in the lines for a few days and still no off tastes at all. Also, no foaming problems. I just tapped the Cream of Three Crops I brewed tonight and had some initial foaming for the first half pour but that was the pour I dumped due to the initial yeast pull. The line also wasn't at kegerator temp since I sanitized it first. Been pouring good since but I think it will probably foam first pour tomorrow then stop like it did with my other beer/line. I think with these lines beer probably needs to sit in it for a number of hours at first introduction of beer into them. Not sure if it's initial reaction to the silver particle lining needing to react to the beer for the first time or what, but once that quick initial first use stage is past it seems they flow normal. I'm really reeeally glad I found these lines. Review in a new thread to follow sometime tomorrow.


Rev.