Just poured 21L down the toilet, would like to know what I did wrong before trying again

[VirginiaHops1]

I understand from reading these forums and other places, the tap water discussion is very controversial, some brewers swear it's fine others swear it's not. Sorry for getting too many discussions going at once..

Water profiles are something you can get into later once you're producing actual beer. Get the more basic steps down first. It's true that to make the best beer possible you probably should know what's in your brewing water but it's probably overwhelming for most beginners. I would suggest using a campden tablet if you can get your hands on some to eliminate the chlorine, because most municipal water supplies use a lot of chlorine/chloramine and that will throw noticeable off-flavors into your beer.

 

[z-bob]

Water profiles are something you can get into later once you're producing actual beer. Get the more basic steps down first. It's true that to make the best beer possible you probably should know what's in your brewing water but it's probably overwhelming for most beginners. I would suggest using a campden tablet if you can get your hands on some to eliminate the chlorine, because most municipal water supplies use a lot of chlorine/chloramine and that will throw noticeable off-flavors into your beer.

Add half a Campden tablet to your water before you start, and add an ounce of acidulated malt per gallon to the mash for light-colored beers. (if you don't need it, it won't hurt anything, and it can fix a lot of water problems)

 

[kh54s10]

Just to take the water thing further..... I think it is important. But... I would, in most cases, not look at water as the first problem. Sure there are those whose tap water is really bad for making beer. But, I would say those are few and far between. If a noob makes a bad beer the problem is 90% more likely to lie elsewhere. If you eliminate other sources of the problem, then, I would suggest just trying store bought spring water as a first step. I would put water treatment and pH very far down on the list that a new brewer should be concerned about. As I have said numerous times I made beer that my friends wanted more of and raved about for over 6 years before doing any treatment other than charcoal filtering. I didn't even use Campden tablets...

And yes I do believe that water treatment will make my great beers greater. It is just not at the top of things to look at when encountering a problem.

 

[Saunassa]

I started with extract (with separate hops and specialty grains) to get a handle on the process and made good (not great) beer. Baby steps man, it's a hobby and learning experience each and every batch.

 

[grampamark]

To summarize this thread-“When a hammer is your favorite tool every problem looks like a nail”.

 

[dwhite60]

If the OP did not crush his/her grain, boiled the entire mash, and pitched yeast into boiling hot wort, water chemistry is the absolute very LEAST of thier problems.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... and hopefully OP is aware of this ...

The second is the blanket statement that was made in the second post: "Tap water is fine for brewing."

That's just wrong. Tap water might be ok, might not. My own experiences above disproved that statement. Then later someone hauls out the old bromide, something like "If it tastes good..." Same thing.

I was gentle and nice earlier in the thread, now I'm going to be a bit more direct: It's WRONG.

... so that bad tap water isn't their next problem.

 

[InLimbo]

I appreciate the kind words.

There are two issues here.......

I redacted most of your post, because you've thoroughly beat a dead horse over the course this thread.

Whether you agree with it or not, for the vast majority of people brewing in North America and Western Europe, tap water is indeed "FINE" and even GOOD and suitable for brewing after it's been filtered. This is a fact. If your personal water still doesn't work after filtering, then you are the exception. You still haven't exactly said what's wrong with your water. Grossly over chlorinated? Or are the ion levels completely out of whack for the styles you're trying to brew? Here in western Washington our water (when filtered, with minimal adjustments if any) is great for lagers, OK for pale ales, but stouts here really struggle. When I lived in southern California, my municipality's water (after basic filtration) was perfect for stouts and porters, good for pale ales, but was not ideal for lagers. This isn't just based on my brewing experience. This is based on ~hundreds of beers I have formally tasted as a BJCP judge.

Does using the "wrong" brewing water result in a 5 gallon drain pour of an otherwise perfectly executed beer? Absolutely not. Scaring new brewers into worrying about water chemistry is irresponsible. The only water instruction new brewers should receive is to filter their brewing water to remove chlorine, brew and then taste their finished beer, and then adjust from there once they get to more advanced styles that need specific water profiles. They need to get the fundamentals down (sanitation, fresh ingredients, rigorous fermentation temperature control) before worrying about water chemistry.

 

[mongoose33]

I redacted most of your post, because you've thoroughly beat a dead horse over the course this thread.

Whether you agree with it or not, for the vast majority of people brewing in North America and Western Europe, tap water is indeed "FINE" and even GOOD and suitable for brewing after it's been filtered. This is a fact. If your personal water still doesn't work after filtering, then you are the exception. You still haven't exactly said what's wrong with your water. Grossly over chlorinated? Or are the ion levels completely out of whack for the styles you're trying to brew? Here in western Washington our water (when filtered, with minimal adjustments if any) is great for lagers, OK for pale ales, but stouts here really struggle. When I lived in southern California, my municipality's water (after basic filtration) was perfect for stouts and porters, good for pale ales, but was not ideal for lagers. This isn't just based on my brewing experience. This is based on ~hundreds of beers I have formally tasted as a BJCP judge.

Well, we're going to have to disagree here. You have no data to support your position. None. You're guessing. Don't know why you'd hold this position, but maybe just being disagreeable is the thing. I don't know.

And you may be a BJCP judge, but that gives you no additional information regarding water. None. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Does using the "wrong" brewing water result in a 5 gallon drain pour of an otherwise perfectly executed beer? Absolutely not. Scaring new brewers into worrying about water chemistry is irresponsible. The only water instruction new brewers should receive is to filter their brewing water to remove chlorine, brew and then taste their finished beer, and then adjust from there once they get to more advanced styles that need specific water profiles. They need to get the fundamentals down (sanitation, fresh ingredients, rigorous fermentation temperature control) before worrying about water chemistry.

I'm scaring nobody. I'm pointing out the problem of saying "Tap water is fine." It may be, and it may not be, and you have no evidence to the contrary. None. It's simply WRONG to say that. WRONG.

Further, anybody in my town--ANYBODY--using our tap water is going to have difficulty unless they decide to brew a stout. And they better hope they're smart enough to get rid of the chlorine. There are many other places just like mine, where the statement "Tap water is fine" is INCORRECT.

Some places have water that's fine. Some places have water like mine. But one thing is absolutely true here: when you make a blanket statement that tap water is fine for brewing, you're WRONG.

BJCP judge or not.

 

[GoeHaarden]

before worrying about water chemistry

It's quite easy actually. BrunWater software and distilled water. Keep it simple and don't worry about checking pH or getting too technical. If you can read a scale you can measure your own salts...

No, the OP's issue was not water when he didn't even know to mill his grain. His issue is lack of research and preparation.

Sure you can brew with any tap water, but not any tap water can produce good beer. You even said you struggled with stouts in Washington, and lagers in California. Unsupported blanket statements are more scary than prompting one to do more research to improve their craft...

Maybe I'm just another exception, because my all-grain beers weren't very good until I started treating my water.

 

[DiscDuffer]

WRONG

INCORRECT

WRONG

Yet I see nothing in your posts to guide a new brewer on an easy and practical solution.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Bought myself a miller, some water & a book on brewing. Also put my hops in the freezer.

Thanks everyone for the advice, I'll hopefully post back here in 2-4 weeks, less foolishly this time.

I skimmed most of the post. I am sure a lot of use made some mistakes that seem pretty silly as we look back on them. I would highly recommend starting with extract brewing. Assuming you have access to decent quality ingredients, you can make some great beers with extract, it is a much easier introduction, and you learn 80% of what is needed for all-grain brewing. I am drinking a pint of an extract batch right now.

I've never heard of glass carboys breaking, tbh I was really hoping to use one of my glass carboys

I used glass for year. I have a brewing buddy that moved to stainless after a trip to the ER and stitches from a broken carboy. I have been using primarily PET fermenters lately (Fermonster brand). Buckets are a decent starting place for a new brewer. If you use glass take care.

 

[mongoose33]

Yet I see nothing in your posts to guide a new brewer on an easy and practical solution.

Was I required to do that? You personally have offered nothing in this thread at all.

OK: RO water. Or Distilled water. Or find out if your tap water, as is, can support the style of beer you're brewing. See if there's a local homebrewer who can give you just a tad bit of advice on the local water. This isn't rocket science.

I'm all for new brewers being supported, and few here do that more than I do. But I'm also an educator, and I know that if you want people to continue with something, to see progress, you'd better try to ensure they're successful. How many home brewers have quit because the beer is lousy, and nobody told them about the importance of water? I don't know, but it seems moronic to me to send someone off on a homebrewing journey ASSUMING the water is OK.

Now, I don't tend to give up easily, but I've known brewers who try it and just quit. I'm thinking of a friend locally who used to try to brew beer, but he gave up after a number of batches because it just didn't turn out very good. He just couldn't figure it out.

Want to offer three guesses as to why?

 

[GoeHaarden]

Yet I see nothing in your posts to guide a new brewer on an easy and practical solution.

The OP and many others would benefit greatly from using this simple tool! It's hard to help people who refuse to help themselves!!!

Help us help you...

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

guide a new brewer on an easy and practical solution

Easy and practical is likely to be person specific.

* for extract based brewing: "How To Brew, 4e".
* for all-grain based brewing: "Homebrew: Beyond the Basics" followed by "Brewing Better Beer".

Standard disclaimers (your mileage may vary, tax and license extract, ...) may apply.

 

[whovous]

Tap water is fine.

Except when it is not.

 

[DiscDuffer]

You personally have offered nothing in this thread at all.

You are correct. I do not know what happen to the second half of my post; I said to use spring water, so it has minerals already in it. This should be "OK" for a pale ale, which most people seem to brew first, like OP.

This isn't rocket science.

But you need more that RO or distilled water. I think the scope of water chemistry should not be in the bailiwick of a first time brewer. There has to be some easier solution.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think the scope of water chemistry should not be in the bailiwick of a first time brewer. There has to be some easier solution.

With regard to easier approaches to water when starting out with BIAB/all-grain, have you read "Homebrew: Beyond the Basics"?

 

[mongoose33]

You are correct. I do not know what happen to the second half of my post; I said to use spring water, so it has minerals already in it. This should be "OK" for a pale ale, which most people seem to brew first, like OP.

I can imagine kits for all-grain that would include a small packet containing water adjustments; all the new brewer would have to do is provide RO water. But nobody does that. Specifying mineral water for a specific type of beer is along those lines.

But you need more that RO or distilled water. I think the scope of water chemistry should not be in the bailiwick of a first time brewer. There has to be some easier solution.

I'm still trying to figure out water chemistry.

It also depends on whether it's an all-grain or extract brew. RO would be OK for an extract brew, it's when new brewers are doing all-grain that this breaks down.

And that in itself is an issue. I don't believe new brewers should start with all-grain unless they're being guided by someone. Start with extract for a few, learn the process from the boil forward, then work back to making wort once that's done.

I taught a new brewer friend how to brew all-grain from the get-go, but I made all the decisions and he just focused on process. The first time I brewed and he watched, the second time he brewed and I watched (and offered corrections where necessary), the third time he did it alone, though I had about 5 texts and one phone call during. But he wasn't doing anything about water additions other than adding what I told him to add.

Not that it's impossible for newbies to do all-grain at the outset, but it's not the way to bet, IMO. That's where I started, and even then those beers weren't great.

So I agree with you--there should be some way to guide new brewers to success very early, reduce the complications like water chemistry, and so on.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I can imagine kits for all-grain that would include a small packet containing water adjustments; all the new brewer would have to do is provide RO water. But nobody does that.

Somebody did that (links may not last long):

https://brewngrow.com/collections/b...oducts/neipa-recipe-jucy-lucy-new-england-ipa

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0249/7934/files/New_England_IPA.pdf?15921801711403750251

 

[mongoose33]

Somebody did that (links may not last long):

https://brewngrow.com/collections/b...oducts/neipa-recipe-jucy-lucy-new-england-ipa

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0249/7934/files/New_England_IPA.pdf?15921801711403750251

Every time I think I'm the first one to think of something, someone else already has.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Somebody did that

The approach from that shop seems solid...sell a pack with the common additions and document the recommended additions in each recipe kit.

Honestly, I am surprised there are not better resources with specific guidance on additions when using RO water. Yeah, there is a little bit of a preference in there (150 ppm of Sulfate vs 250 ppm in an IPA...add Sodium/Magnesium or not?), but I feel like it would not be hard (for somebody more knowledgeable than me) to come up with a baseline listing for each style. You might need to tweak the pH based on the grain bill, but I expect even then you could get close.

Personally, I use tap water. Based on the style tables from the Palmer/Kaminski "Water" (p 156 to 159) I came up with some generic additions for those 16 categories of beer that is tailored to my tap water baseline. I use that as a starting point with Bru'N Water and usually make some batch specific tweaks.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I feel like it would not be hard (for somebody more knowledgeable than me) to come up with a baseline listing for each style. You might need to tweak the pH based on the grain bill, but I expect even then you could get close.

I haven't found a baseline based on style. There are a number of articles from the early 2010s (some on the web for free, some in magazines) and at least two books (also from the early 2010s) that talk about simple approaches to brewing salt additions. IIRC, most of the approaches use SRM or hoppy / malty for the suggestions.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I haven't found a baseline based on style. There are a number of articles from the early 2010s (some on the web for free, some in magazines) and at least two books (also from the early 2010s) that talk about simple approaches to brewing salt additions. IIRC, most of the approaches use SRM or hoppy / malty for the suggestions.

The tables in "Water" seem kinda reasonable. There are 16 different groupings based on:

• Ale/Lager
• Alcohol Level (Light/Medium/Strong)
• Color (Pale/Amber/Brown,Black)
• Bitterness (Soft/Moderate/Assertive)

The book then goes one step further to list specific styles for each of the 16 groupings listed. In some cases the book highlights outliner styles. While I have found this table to be very useful, it has flaws. The biggest being that some grouping have very wide ranges (Sulfate 100-400 or Chloride 0-100).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The tables in "Water" seem kinda reasonable.

Thanks! For those willing to work with Ca, SO4, and PPM, this looks like a good resource.

At the moment, I'm reading/thinking/brewing at the "gypsum and grams" level - some of the articles/books I mentioned make it easy to just measure the desired amount of an item and add it to RO water.

Good beer is likely to be made either way.

 

[eric19312]

Thanks! For those willing to work with Ca, SO4, and PPM, this looks like a good resource.

At the moment, I'm reading/thinking/brewing at the "gypsum and grams" level - some of the articles/books I mentioned make it easy to just measure the desired amount of an item and add it to RO water.

Good beer is likely to be made either way.

RO plus salts will be more reliable than what I do for sure. I know there is variability in my tap water depending on which wells are being used and whether or not the water authority has recently done a big chlorine treatment. But it’s always soft and I always treat with campden as I don’t trust my nose/taste when it comes to chlorine.

Im still with the crowd that says water chemistry is not the issue here when OP boiled un crushed grain as part of his process.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Im still with the crowd that says water chemistry is not the issue here when OP boiled un crushed grain as part of his process.

I'm OK with that. OP did ask about tap water in their initial post ...

Questions:
Was tap water okay to use? Where I live the tap water is what we drink.

... so a discussion on tap water in this topic seems reasonable to me.

Starting around reply 75, the topic drifted towards ideas for "simple" approaches for brewing salts / water chemistry. The idea of having BIAB recipes where one can use RO water and measure grams of brewing salts certainly has appeal.

 

[IslandLizard]

Meanwhile, the OP has been MIA since Sep. 21...

Hopefully he's busy reading his "book on brewing."

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Meanwhile, the OP has been MIA since Sep. 21...

Hopefully he's busy reading his "book on brewing."

Wait!?! What?!? Isn't it customary for an OP to take two SG readings say thank-you three times over the course of three days before we begin to wind down a topic?

 

[ZmannR2]

Jesus guys.....the OP isn't boiling, isn't milling, has zero understanding of yeast pitch temps, and you're arguing over the water????? Let the guy get a basic understanding of brewing first before you move to improvements in the beer.

btw, why does he say in his first post:

Poured 5.5LBs of 2 row malt into a grain bag
Put that grain bag into the boiled water

I just want to make sure that this "grain bag" isn't the one in the original picture and that's its a real BIAB bag of some sort.


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