Jolly Pumpkin dregs

[soundguy]

The ibu is the one thing I wasn't really sure about. I want to keep it low enough to where the bacteria can do their thing and it won't seem too bitter if they take off strong, but I want it high enough to where it will seem drinkable in a reasonable amount of time. All of my wild beers have been under 10 ibu except for my first one. I'm just a little scared to go above that I guess.

 

[stpug]

Does anyone think there would be any benefit/difference/detriment to pitching only the dregs into unaerated wort, and then a couple days later, aerate and pitch the sacc yeast? It would seem that it should give the bottle dregs a couple days to "rejuvenate" and begin slowly working on a rich wort prior to it being quickly eaten up by the sacc yeast. I'm thinking along the lines of a quickly working saison strain at elevated temperatures.

 

[jnacey]

Does anyone think there would be any benefit/difference/detriment to pitching only the dregs into unaerated wort, and then a couple days later, aerate and pitch the sacc yeast? It would seem that it should give the bottle dregs a couple days to "rejuvenate" and begin slowly working on a rich wort prior to it being quickly eaten up by the sacc yeast. I'm thinking along the lines of a quickly working saison strain at elevated temperatures.

I'm not 100% certain, but depending on the cell counts in the dregs, I would imagine they would need more than a couple of days to gain a foothold to the extent you're looking for. You might have better results culturing the dregs up in a starter first and then proceeding down the path that you outlined.

 

[sweetcell]

I'm not 100% certain, but depending on the cell counts in the dregs, I would imagine they would need more than a couple of days to gain a foothold to the extent you're looking for. You might have better results culturing the dregs up in a starter first and then proceeding down the path that you outlined.

agreed - start smaller.

also, these dregs have plenty of kick on their own. i really don't think that they need to be stepped up, given a head-start, etc. pitch them along with your primary yeast if you want but even that's not needed.

 

[FinchSCF]

I had brewed a saison and had pitched the dreggs from Oro Del Calabaza into my saison yeast starter and got great results - mild tartness, nice funkiness after two months on the yeast cake. So if you do a starter for your primary strain, that method worked pretty well for me.

 

[soundguy]

I brewed this today. I tried no sparge and also didn't adjust my beersmith equipment profile for a smaller batch and ended up with 4.25 gallons of 1.038 wort. I pitched dregs from La Roja, Calabaza Blanca, and Weizen Bam Bière. Drank the two wheat ones because the friend I had over is a huge fan of wheats, then the La Roja because it had the most sediment in the bottom. Both wheats were low on dregs, but I did add a bit more beer in with those to make up for it.

I was surprised that none of the beers were that sour or funky, they all had a light tartness and just a hint of funk. Because of this I am letting the wort sit with just the dregs to give them a chance to establish them selves a bit until tomorrow when I will pitch the yeast.

Edit: I should add that the Weizen Bam was f-ing incredible. I have a Bam and a Bam Noire I'm really temped to drink now after trying it.

 

[MileHighBrewer]

Jp beers do not get very sour, maybe a bit tart. The funk really takes a year+ to get going, oldest i have had was a 3 year bam, very different beer. HOWEVER, this is NOT the case with the dregs. Honestly one was plenty, nothing wrong with more, but it was far from needed. This is basically a repitch, there will be more active bugs then yeast, and those bugs have been semi dormant, you are giving them a huge wake up in fresh wort. Just like the commercial mixed cultures, roes does not get super sour or funky, if it does its well over a year. But, when you use some of that cake on a repitch, its more sour, faster, and more funky....on each repitch.

Jp dregs will also do the job on wort in the 25-30 ibu range, i have done so a few times. There is some strange super ibu defying lacto in there, its amazing. My guess on your beer, it will be clean for 6-8 weeks, then it will start turning, noticeably, then a month or two later you will be thinking this is a 1+ year old sour.

 

[WhamFish]

Jp beers do not get very sour, maybe a bit tart. The funk really takes a year+ to get going, oldest i have had was a 3 year bam, very different beer. HOWEVER, this is NOT the case with the dregs. Honestly one was plenty, nothing wrong with more, but it was far from needed. This is basically a repitch, there will be more active bugs then yeast, and those bugs have been semi dormant, you are giving them a huge wake up in fresh wort. Just like the commercial mixed cultures, roes does not get super sour or funky, if it does its well over a year. But, when you use some of that cake on a repitch, its more sour, faster, and more funky....on each repitch.

Jp dregs will also do the job on wort in the 25-30 ibu range, i have done so a few times. There is some strange super ibu defying lacto in there, its amazing. My guess on your beer, it will be clean for 6-8 weeks, then it will start turning, noticeably, then a month or two later you will be thinking this is a 1+ year old sour.

So do you find that this is lactic acid or acetic acid? I've got some dregs going in a starter now that has a nice brett funk going. Very much the same character that was in the 3 year old Bam it came out off. But I did not get any acidity from the Bam, I kind of thought this was Brett only with no Lacto. In that case acidity would arise from acetic acid but not lactic.

 

[MileHighBrewer]

Well JP pitches clean yeast (WLP550) and then open ferments. So what makes it in, makes it in. They don't add any brett/lacto/pedio, just whats in the air and barrels. I do not get acetic acid from beers I have done with JP dregs, I have tasted plenty of beers that do have big levels of acetic, there is a difference. IME acetic also tends to have a bit of a burning acid sensation in the throat. Is there some in the beers? Well, possibly, that is in any sour beer commercial or homebrew, but I do not think this is what gives the well known JP souring.

 

[Weezy]

Well JP pitches clean yeast (WLP550) and then open ferments. So what makes it in, makes it in. They don't add any brett/lacto/pedio, just whats in the air and barrels. I do not get acetic acid from beers I have done with JP dregs, I have tasted plenty of beers that do have big levels of acetic, there is a difference. IME acetic also tends to have a bit of a burning acid sensation in the throat. Is there some in the beers? Well, possibly, that is in any sour beer commercial or homebrew, but I do not think this is what gives the well known JP souring.

I don't recall this being the case based on Oldsock's interviews in his sour book. Iirc and I don't have the book in front of me, they use lacto and no pedio. I don't recall anything regarding spontaneous fermentation. What's the source of your info?

 

[Bithead]

I have a 2.5 gal. batch of this BYO article La Roja Clone recipe going, 3 months in. Haven't tasted it yet but I made a batch of brown ale and stole 1 gal, put it on La Roja and absolutely love it. Unfortunately only 6 bottles left. Not really sour or funky (at last tasting) mostly tart.

 

[MileHighBrewer]

I don't recall this being the case based on Oldsock's interviews in his sour book. Iirc and I don't have the book in front of me, they use lacto and no pedio. I don't recall anything regarding spontaneous fermentation. What's the source of your info?

Open, not spontaneous. They pitch yeast, then ferment in large open top vessels. Air is pumped into the fermenting rooms, bringin bacteria and wild yeasts. Source, their website, Ron Jefferies, and Oldsocks book. Spontaneous would have nothing purposely added. They add wlp550, then pump in cool night air from Dexter, which has something magical in it.

 

[Weezy]

Open, not spontaneous. They pitch yeast, then ferment in large open top vessels. Air is pumped into the fermenting rooms, bringin bacteria and wild yeasts. Source, their website, Ron Jefferies, and Oldsocks book. Spontaneous would have nothing purposely added. They add wlp550, then pump in cool night air from Dexter, which has something magical in it.

I went back and looked... you're right! I forgot the details.... but its a bit disingenuous since the bugs are predominantly coming from what's in the barrels and not what is blown in by the HVAC. anyways, good info.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

added the dregs from a JP saison to my saison roughly the first of October and it is wonderful. Both sour and tart. Just put it on tap the other day, simply dumped the dregs from a bottle into a finished keg of beer.

 

[MaddBaggins]

I just added the dregs from Persimmon Ship to an all brett on cantaloupe that I have in secondary. It's 2 months old now. I'll take a sample again in a month and see where it stands.
It's at 1.01 now and has a nice fruity tart.

 

[griddler]

I brewed a Bam Biere clone in August, fermented with Bam Biere dregs. I split the batch into 2 three gallon carboys. I bottled one today with a FG of 1.004. It was extremely sour!
The other I racked onto a couple pounds of paw paw fruit. Fermented with the fruit for about two weeks- paw paw is super sugary- and am going to keep it in tertiary for another few months.

 

[stpug]

I brewed a Bam Biere clone in August, fermented with Bam Biere dregs. I split the batch into 2 three gallon carboys. I bottled one today with a FG of 1.004. It was extremely sour!
The other I racked onto a couple pounds of paw paw fruit. Fermented with the fruit for about two weeks- paw paw is super sugary- and am going to keep it in tertiary for another few months.

You fermented 5 gallons with the dregs from one bottle? Do you recall how old the bottle(s) was? If

I'm interested in the details of your process because I'm looking at something similar.

 

[griddler]

You fermented 5 gallons with the dregs from one bottle? Do you recall how old the bottle(s) was? If

I'm interested in the details of your process because I'm looking at something similar.

I got dregs from two bottles of Bam Biere. Pretty sure they were both around 6-9 months old. Not the freshest, but...
In this case I made a starter with the dregs. That being said, I would advise against the starter because the different bugs require different amounts of oxygen and can grow disproportionate to their original ratio. My grain bill was the same as the BB clone and I hopped it with sterling.

 

[stpug]

I got dregs from two bottles of Bam Biere. Pretty sure they were both around 6-9 months old. Not the freshest, but...
In this case I made a starter with the dregs. That being said, I would advise against the starter because the different bugs require different amounts of oxygen and can grow disproportionate to their original ratio. My grain bill was the same as the BB clone and I hopped it with sterling.

Thanks for getting back on this. My dregs from 2 bottles are in the 24 MONTHS old category - ouch! My intention was to pitch plain old dregs at the same time as sacc and wait it out. I suspect I'll have a bit longer of a wait than you did but I'll just put the fermenter out of the way (out of sight out of mind)

 

[nicolas_james]

I just pitched some 4 mo Oro de Calabaza with TYB Wallonian into a saison. Pretty excited.

 

[nicolas_james]

Brewed 2/7, 1.055 OG and already down to 1.006. Pitched at 67, raised to 76 over 4 days and held there.

 

[soundguy]

Today I racked this to secondary. Gravity is currently 1.010. Citrus like tartness. A bit of earthy or meaty like Brett character. Reminds me a lot of a jolly pumpkin beer. I think this should come out well in a few months.

I am reusing the yeast cake to brew a dark Flanders like sour ale. Half will get the last of my ECY Bug County, the other half will get some Russian River dregs and whatever else I decide to drink today.

 

[LakesideBrewing]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC-XVTwi5Jd5GluJqcUijgFpLNz0qFsBr&v=lNc47kU8OVY

Here is a great interview with Ron Jeffries from JP. It's a little long and he talks about many aspects of his brewery. But he does touch on the yeast they use and how they use it.

 

[soundguy]

I have sampled this beer twice now. It is getting more sour. It was 4.7brix about a month ago now it's down to 4.4, still moving apparently. Pretty tart with some fruity and earthy brett character. I have 1 gallon that is in a jug with a couple oak cubes and the yeast cake. This is much more sour than the 3 gallons in the better bottle. Same reading on the refractometer though.

 

[finsfan]

I have sampled this beer twice now. It is getting more sour. It was 4.7brix about a month ago now it's down to 4.4, still moving apparently. Pretty tart with some fruity and earthy brett character. I have 1 gallon that is in a jug with a couple oak cubes and the yeast cake. This is much more sour than the 3 gallons in the better bottle. Same reading on the refractometer though.

You are using a refractometer to measure the gravity? You wont get a correct reading doing that to fermenting or already fermented beer. Use a hydrometer for anything and everything after pitching yeast. That beer should be a lot lower than ~1.016

BTW, great thread with a lot of good info. I plan to get some JP sours going at some point and the information here is very helpful. I know not to make a starter to keep this stuff on hand now!

 

[stpug]

You are using a refractometer to measure the gravity? You wont get a correct reading doing that to fermenting or already fermented beer. Use a hydrometer for anything and everything after pitching yeast. That beer should be a lot lower than ~1.016

BTW, great thread with a lot of good info. I plan to get some JP sours going at some point and the information here is very helpful. I know not to make a starter to keep this stuff on hand now!

It sounded to me like he was just using the refractometer to see if the brix continue to drop (i.e. to see if attenuation is continuing to take place), in which case it's an ideal tool for this purpose since it only requires a few drops and you're just looking to see if the brix have dropped since last time. At least that's how I interpreted his post.

As for final gravity, a hydrometer might prove more useful but then again my understanding is that when it comes to sour beers (acidic solutions) even a hydrometer is a prone to significant error.

 

[finsfan]

As for final gravity, a hydrometer might prove more useful but then again my understanding is that when it comes to sour beers (acidic solutions) even a hydrometer is a prone to significant error.

Any more information you can pass along regarding this? Im not sure I've ever heard this and not sure how the pH of the beer would have any effect on a hydrometer reading.

 

[stpug]

Any more information you can pass along regarding this? Im not sure I've ever heard this and not sure how the pH of the beer would have any effect on a hydrometer reading.

After searching back through my bookmarks and whittling out the "sketchy" sources, I think the best source is probably from M. Tonsmeire himself. The end result is much more benign than I alluded to previously in regards to hydrometers and sour beers, but there is some small impact.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/11/calculating-abv-for-sour-beers.html

Which was spurred on from a discussion on reddit between him and some other members:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/1rffzc/how_to_calculate_abv_of_sourwild_beers/

 

[soundguy]

I just used the refractometer to see if the gravity is actually moving. It is much easier than pulling out a larger hydrometer sample. It is especially nice for one gallon jugs, where doing a couple hydrometer readings could drastically reduce the batch size. When I eventually package this I will take an actual hydrometer reading to find the gravity and abv. I have tried the calculations in the past and have never found them to be very acurate.

 

[hopbrad]

this is awesome. I love JP beers and have 2 sours going. One is 8 months along and the other is 2 months, no dregs pitched yet but may go for it soon. the 8 month one has great flavor but almost no tart/sourness. the 2 month one is the re-used Rosealare yeast cake so that one may sour quicker.
Sounds like a sach strain and pitch some dregs is a great way to go.

I have WL sour blend and Belle saison. May get 2 bottles of JP the next time a friend visits and get a Flanders and Saison going.

Has anyone used Belle Saison with JP dregs? Belle attenuates super low similar to 3711. I'll plan to mash higher like 156 to help combat this.

Stoked!