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Jacking a cider that hasn't fermented dry

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Tancred the Brewer

Brewing Irony
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I am making a high gravity cider to jack. Starting gravity was 1.109. It has fermented down to 1.019 but has stayed there for 3 weeks. I tasted and it is delicious, but a little sweet. If I were to jack it now would it be overly sweet? Should I re-pitch to get it down to nearly dry? Don't want to jack it and then regret not fully fermenting it to dry first.
 
Hit it with a starter of EC 1118. That should drive it to near 1.000. Taste and see what you got from there. Or just enjoy it as is.
 
I am making a high gravity cider to jack. Starting gravity was 1.109. It has fermented down to 1.019 but has stayed there for 3 weeks. I tasted and it is delicious, but a little sweet. If I were to jack it now would it be overly sweet? Should I re-pitch to get it down to nearly dry? Don't want to jack it and then regret not fully fermenting it to dry first.

What yeast did you use? You likely hit the maximum alcohol tolerance for the yeast, in which case if you jack it, yeah it's going to come out too sweet, as it's not going to ferment any more, unless you add a lot of champagne yeast or something that can ferment under high alcohol.
 
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You’re jacking apple wine not cider. I think it’s gonna taste too intense and sweet. May be interesting though. The sg is what most people aim for post jacking.
 
Yeah, I've gotta agree with the consensus: your extremely high SG maxed out the alcohol tolerance of the yeast (you are already close to 12%). Jacking it will end up with a very sweet AJ, as you probably have a very sweet apple-wine at the moment. Your best bet is to re-pitch with a yeast that has a higher alcohol tolerance.

I'm the future, I recommend not adding so muchadditional sugars. When I made Applejack, I only added enough additional sugars to bring the SG to 1.080. The yeast had no problem eating that up to fill dryness, giving me a starting ABV of 10%, which I freeze concentrated to 30-35%, and resulted in a very delicious AJ. What you lose in volume you make up for in quality.
 
71B goes well above 12% if sufficient nutrients are present. I think it's Moonlight Meadery's go-to yeast, and they go >17% ABV. You can probably add a little nutrient, move the carboy to a warmer spot, and swirl it daily to rouse the yeast and degass CO2.

That said, if you jack it double the alcohol and gravity, 24% abv and 1.040-ish gravity should "balance' fine. Most port wines are ~18% and around 1.040-60 gravity from what I've read.
 
Wanted to update. Went ahead and made a start of e-1115. Got it bubbling good. Pulled about 1 gallon off the primary to make room for the starter. Poured the heavily bubbling starter in and let it ferment. Barely any action. Bubbled a bit but mostly died down within a few hours. I have added nutrients but that hasn't seemed to improve things. So I am guessing either CO2 levels are too high or not enough oxygen. Temp is about 65 so don't think that is too big a problem. Shook it up a bit to release co2 so will see how it looks this evening.

Since I pulled just shy of a gallon of the 1.019 (12.99% ABV) cider I decided to jack it and see if it tastes too sweet. Took a sample of the first run and it is sweet but quite balanced. Usually I age this stuff but this is very drinkable right now. Very nice flavor with just a hint of warmth on the back end. Removed about 1/3 of the volume so guessing I am at 17% or so. Doing one more run and will see how it tastes.
 
Is this a 5gal batch? How much and what kind of sugar did you use to get it to 1.1? I'm thinking about doing this this weekend. Also, how did the 1 gal test turn out after the 2nd round? Thanks
 
Is this a 5gal batch? How much and what kind of sugar did you use to get it to 1.1? I'm thinking about doing this this weekend. Also, how did the 1 gal test turn out after the 2nd round? Thanks
This is a 5 gal batch. I used about 7 or so pounds of brown sugar. As I didn't account for the increase in volume the sugar would add to the cider I don't have an exact amount. Ran out of room in the fermenter.

The addition of the 1 gal starter of EC 1118 has started to reap benefits. I think it may be the combination of temp and CO2. Took a few days to get rolling but it finally started. I shake the fermenter daily to release CO2 and that is helping. But it is slow going getting it down closer to dry.

The gallon I pulled and then jacked turned out great. Got it down to a quart and a pint, so 1/3 of original volume. Should put me close to 30% ABV. It is delicious and smooth. No heat to speak of but get the subtle warmth on the back end. Great apple flavor. Is a bit sweeter than I prefer but not undrinkable. Mix it with a nice rum and it is a wonderful cocktail. All in all I am very happy with how this turned out.

Once the 5 gal is finished I plan to take it down to about 6 quarts. I will then do some experiments with oaking to see how that changes things. I would definitely recommend this. I have all of $35 into this including yeast, apple juice from Costco and brown sugar. Super simple and a great product for the price.
 
I will then do some experiments with oaking to see how that changes things. I would definitely recommend this. I have all of $35 into this including yeast, apple juice from Costco and brown sugar. Super simple and a great product for the price.

try toasting some cherry wood for it.....
 
Just a note that pectic enzyme should be avoided when making cider for jacking. This is because pectic enzyme breaks pectin to methanol, and jacking then concentrates the methanol along with ethanol. I've made some serious hangover sauce by jacking ciders before and I suspect that pectinase was a contributor.
 
Ugh, not the "freeze concentration concentrates methanol" myth again! The amount of methanol relative to ethanol is still consistent both before and after the freeze concentration. If you can drink a six-pack of Cider with no ill effects from methanol, then you can drink the same six-pack that has been freeze concentrated down to 18oz, and you would be consuming the exact same amounts of methanol and ethanol, which is a very small amount even if pectin enzyme is used.

Stop spreading false myths about methanol in homebrewing!!
 
I think both @ten80 and @Sequoiacider are correct. It is a fact that breakdown of pectin is a primary source of the methanol in any fermented beverage. It is also a fact that most deaths involving methanol poisoning are due to either shoddy distillation and/or malicious adulteration of these beverages. And yet while it would require one to consume a very high quantity of a normal freeze-concentrated cider to experience death, it is not unreasonable to expect that consumption of a smaller quantity may still cause headaches and a nasty hangover. True heat distillation is both a blessing and a curse. If properly done, the methanol can be discarded leaving only the desired ethanol. But if improperly done, the methanol can be very concentrated leading to injury or death. Freeze concentration is different in that the ratio of methanol to ethanol will stay the same before and after the process... and you probably will not want to drink a six-pack of very concentrated beverage because of course it is very concentrated and thus not as easy to consume in large quantities! So I think you're both right. Except I wouldn't call any of it a "false myth", or, it depends on context. There's a lot of truth which needs to be distilled (wink!) for full understanding. For anyone interested, following is some additional information I contributed to on this topic a few months ago.

https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/24367/can-methanol-be-formed-when-brewing-a-rice-wine

Cheers.
 
Stop spreading false myths about methanol in homebrewing!!

Isn't a "false myth" a truth??? But then, if there is a "true myth," is it actually a false truth? :confused:

I never said people were going to die, go blind, or explicitly that they'd have a terrible hangover. Nothing I said was untrue, nor was I fear mongering, or telling folks what they must or must not do. Also, what I said is most applicable to fermented juices, not "homebrewing" in general because beer contains very little methanol. I am just providing a suggestion to reduce methanol in jacked cider, at no expense to the cidermaker, and with no potential detriments other than perhaps a slight haze in the finished product.

Let's look at some science before making knee-jerk blanket statements about "spreading false myths." Let's assume a hypothesis of
"Does the science back up the assertion that freeze-concentrating fermented cider increases methanol content by an appreciable amount?"

First, the formation of additional methanol when pectic enzyme is used is a fact, and is well-documented in scientific literature for both wine and cider. It is also a fact that freeze concentration will concentrate all alcohols.

Second, Ciders naturally can contain up to about 100 mg/L methanol, perhaps more depending on variety, and the level is higher for pectinase-treated juice which can exceed the FDA standard of 0.35% by volume pre-fermentation (or concentration). Assuming 3-fold concentration of a juice at the FDA methanol level with 6% ABV, you might have 1.05% by volume methanol and 17% ethanol. That would mean 0.83g ethanol for every 170 mL ethanol, or 4.88 g methanol for every 1L of ethanol, about half the EU has a limit of 10g methanol for every 1L of ethanol in an alcoholic beverage. Note that this is a conservative calculation using the FDA standard and pectin content could exceed this standard.

For a standard apple without pectinase use and 100 mg/L methanol and 60g/L ethanol (6% abv) freeze jacked to 18% ethanol would have aproximately 300 mg/L methanol. 300 mg/L methanol works out to 0.3 g methanol / 0.22 L ethanol, or 1.36 grams of ethanol per liter of ethanol. So only 13.6% of the EU criteria, but still a tangible amount, without use of pectinase.

Note that these are back-of-the-envelope calculations using fairly generic values from literature and reference grams of methanol per liter of ethanol. So assuming one can drink 1 L of 20% apple jack the methanol does would be 0.27 to 0.98 grams of Methanol. This is below lethal dose which is around 56 grams per person, and the blinding dose of 3.16-11.85 g ethanol... BUT as you might guess, someone susceptible to methanol could have a wicked hangover from drinking 1L of a 20% applejack treated with pectinase, which could >1 g ethanol per liter of applejack.

Whether or not folks care about additional methanol in their ciders is up to them, and not everyone can crush a 6-pack of cider or 18 oz of jacked cider without feeling ill effects, regardless of methanol.

Feel free to check my math and sources, I'm open to science-based discussion but not hyperbolic rhetoric.
 
Woohoo, science!
FDA standard of 0.35% by volume pre-fermentation (or concentration).
This is incorrect and your math is wrong.

The FDA recommends no more than 0.35% methanol in a 40% ABV (ethanol) beverage (brandy).
That's 7g methanol per L of ethanol.

To point out the obvious, freeze concentration has no effect on the ratio of the alcohols, so this doesn't lend any weight to an argument against freeze concentration.
For a standard apple without pectinase use and 100 mg/L methanol and 60g/L ethanol (6% abv)
You don't understand ABV. 6% ABV is 6mL of ethanol per 100mL beverage. (Not 6 grams)

Let's use 6.6% ABV since that's how much was in the cider with the 100ppm methanol from the article you linked.
So, per 1 L of apple cider that's 0.1g methanol and 66mL ethanol.
That's 1.5g methanol per L of ethanol.
OK, so this article provides a reason to never use pectinase, regardless if you are freeze concentrating.
Unfortunately, without the full text of the article, we don't know how much the methanol was increased with the use of pectinase.
So assuming one can drink 1 L of 20% apple jack the methanol does would be 0.27 to 0.98 grams of Methanol. This is below lethal dose which is around 56 grams per person, and the blinding dose of 3.16-11.85 g ethanol... BUT as you might guess, someone susceptible to methanol could have a wicked hangover from drinking 1L of a 20% applejack treated with pectinase, which could >1 g ethanol per liter of applejack.
When looking at toxicity of methanol in this context, it's important to remember that ethanol reduces the toxicity of methanol.
This means you can't simply look at the dose of methanol to determine its toxicity, so any conclusion you're trying to draw from methanol dosage alone is false.

Bottom line:
  • Freeze concentration has no effect on toxicity.
  • If you want lower methanol, never use pectinase.
Cheers
 
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So for those following along...an update. I added about a 1 gallon starter of E1118 into the cider that had fermented down to 1.020 then stopped. I thought maybe the alcohol level had killed off the yeast. The thing started bubbling like crazy a day or two after the starter got put in. No kreuzen, just a ton of tiny little bubbles and clear evidence of carbonation in the cider. I have let it go for a month and took a sample. No Change. Not even a single degree. Moved it from the basement up to the heated part of the house thinking that may be what is up. Let it go a week or so. No change. The thing is bubbling like a mad man but the gravity reading keeps coming out the same. Tastes just as sweet as well. I have another cider that is lower gravity fermenting and it is down to nearly 1.000 so I don't think my hydrometer is bad.

I have been trying to degas this think by shaking it every time I walk by. I just don't know how it can still be producing CO2 without any change in the amount of sugar in solution. But there is always about a quarter to half an inch of bubbles on the top around the glass.

Any ideas on what is happening here?

I may just have to go ahead and jack it as is and start another with a bit less sugar. The gallon I jacked is delicious but is more like a dessert wine than what I was going for. Not bad, especially if you mix it with rum or mead. Dangerous then.
 
Yeast could be out of nutrients?

For funsies, test your hydrometer in 60* or 68* still water. Or whatever temperature its calibrated for.
 
I had added plenty of nutrients prior to start and even added more during fermentation. Don't think that was the problem. I did test the hydrometer and it is spot on in 68* water.

Ended up giving up on trying to finish fermentation. Went ahead and jacked it. Ended up with just shy of 1.5 gallons of 40+% abv liquor. I call it that as it is pretty sweet, given how concentrated I made it. It isn't what I was going for but is drinkable. Good apple flavor, a little heat on the backend. Not a lot of complexity yet. I just tend to prefer not sweet flavors. Plan to sip on a half gallon while letting the other gallon settle for a while. I will come back to it in 6 months and see how it tastes.
 
How do you make your starter ?
AJ + nutriment + O2 ?
If yes, What nutriment and how do you oxygenate?
 
How do you make your starter ?
AJ + nutriment + O2 ?
If yes, What nutriment and how do you oxygenate?
Starter was a gallon of apple juice (same juice I used but without the added sugar). Nutrients went directly into the fermenter in 2-3 additions. Don't recall what type of nutrients I used but it is just your standard homebrew nutrients. O2 is added through vigorous shaking of the bottle. That is the best I can do at this point.
 

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