thunderaxe
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i've been wondering if that spiciness or pepper flavour isn't just hop burn
Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?
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i've been wondering if that spiciness or pepper flavour isn't just hop burn
I grabbed a pack of their Juice yeast from my local brew shop for my latest NE IPA, which the staff guy told me was basically 1318. Will be carbing shortly and can share results.
Joeneugs
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Funny you mention EQ. I just talked to the head brewer a couple weeks ago and he mentioned that they use all RO water and build a chloride heavy profile.
Another interesting tidbit is that they lager all their hoppy beers for a whole month after dry hopping and carbonation before canning. He says this gives the polyphenols a chance to drop out after the massive amount of plant material is added. I can confirm that their IPA's are incredibly smooth.
I wonder how heavy on the chloride. They do release beers every week. How can the store that much beer for a month before releasing? I believe you, just saying. They have a small operation going on there. I did make a yeast starter out of the fluctuation beer and after chilling it reminded of blue moon or a Witt beer style. Interesting...
ThePaleAleIndian
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Never tried it, but i am very interested in doing so now haha. What is similar about them to TH? Hop character? Yeast character? Mouthfeel?
First, not all their ipas are similar like TH. Maybe slightly the yeast character but also that fresh hoppy wort flavor and maltiness. Not sure if they naturally carb or not.
Joeneugs
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Yeah, I didn't ask him about the logistics of how many brite tanks they have, when it's moved from primary etc... They don't have a taproom to keep stocked with 8-12 different beers though, so I guess that allows them to do a lot more of the hoppy can releases.
Joeneugs
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Tree House seems to have more of the bready English malt base (especially the newer Charlton beers) and the hop character is more focused than the Equilibrium stuff. I describe EQ as "messy, wild and beautiful". They have a snappy citric flavor to go along with over ripe tropical fruit basket in most of their hoppy stuff. Their yeast character is way more expressive as well. Almost what I remember Heady Topper being like in the early days.
In my opinion the Eq beers taste like Bright the most.
Beside Eq’s Pale Ale, their hoppy beers I’ve tried (TH Bright included) are not my preference.
They are too sweet tasting to me.
The last hoppy beer I made, I tried a high Na addition (like Melville in this thread has been doing) and overall this reminded me most of Equilibrium and Bright. The Na additions also raise the Chloride level.
I got closest to the Hill Farmstead aroma and mouthfeel I feel I’ve ever gotten, but in this case close didn’t count.
Beside Eq’s Pale Ale, their hoppy beers I’ve tried (TH Bright included) are not my preference.
They are too sweet tasting to me.
The last hoppy beer I made, I tried a high Na addition (like Melville in this thread has been doing) and overall this reminded me most of Equilibrium and Bright. The Na additions also raise the Chloride level.
I got closest to the Hill Farmstead aroma and mouthfeel I feel I’ve ever gotten, but in this case close didn’t count.
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ThePaleAleIndian
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Fwiw my attempts with our now-famous yeast blend from this thread have been fairly tart and citric. In fact, I feel like that's one of the main differences between my attempts and TH. Seems like the Whitbread strain (S-04/1098/007) is pretty proficient at producing that acidic thing.
if I ferment with 1318 and keg condition with S-04, it goes from smooth and creamy to light and tart in about 2 weeks. I was kind of fine with it for the cashmere beer, because that one was pretty weird
Edit: I had said S05 I meant 04
Edit: I had said S05 I meant 04
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melville
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Plan this weekend is to sub the S-04 with.... Conan (Yeast Bay Vermont). Hopefully the conventional wisdom of Fermentis yeast counts having 20 billion/gram is somewhat on point. Also going to try moving the beer to a keg on day 5, throw in a just a bit of sugar and the last dry hop for a couple of days, and then move to the fridge for force carb and condition.
(the thinking here is that at some point lallemand's dry conan is going to be available for homebrewers and wouldn't that be a fun option.)
(the thinking here is that at some point lallemand's dry conan is going to be available for homebrewers and wouldn't that be a fun option.)
I just read a big write up on polyphenols by Scott Janish, “making a cleanish NEIPA” published last summer.
Also, on the latest Beersmith podcast mike, The Mad Fermentationist likes to lager his NEIPAs for a week before serving.
ThePaleAleIndian
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Cool. I've been thinking about experimenting with switching up the base strain as well. I have made an NEIPA with 1968 before. Aroma was great, huge tropical fruit character. Hop flavor was a little muted though. But I want to experiment with using rehopped gyle to prime and naturally keg carb, so I'm thinking I'll revisit the 1968. The thought being that a lot of the hop flavors that get muted by the yeast during primary will get added back with the rehopped gyle. I think eventually I want to work towards blending that with a small WB-06 batch, but i might separate out the variables first.
On a somewhat related note, I'm thinking about reducing or dropping the T-58 for the time being. I'm pretty sure it's not the source of that spice. Also, the more I taste it, the less I like that orange character that I assume is from that yeast.
EQ beers have an insane hop saturation to me and i don't know how they achieve it. They are MIT grads 
I've had a ton of tree house and i agree that the beers have changed since monson. They don't have nearly the same mouthfeel to me or the same hop profiles. Understandable with the changes and increased batch sizes to work the kinks out I'm sure. Nearly impossible to scale recipes and fermentation profiles at that level without growing pains.
I've had a ton of tree house and i agree that the beers have changed since monson. They don't have nearly the same mouthfeel to me or the same hop profiles. Understandable with the changes and increased batch sizes to work the kinks out I'm sure. Nearly impossible to scale recipes and fermentation profiles at that level without growing pains.Isn’t lagering just storing cold? If so, aren’t we all lagering our IPAs when storing in the fridge before serving?
Yes, but I do know if he was lagering at 50 or 38f. I think his point was to let it cold condition a week before tapping it. Kinda like what some if not most are saying that the beers change and come into their own after a week or two. If you have been following this thread and the NEIPA thread, there wasn’t really any new information that hasn’t been discussed.
Turfgrass
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I’ve only had one beer, (violet) by Tilted Barn Brewery in RI and that beer had some TH qualities. Reminded me a bit like Doppelgänger. Maybe they would be willing to share some brewery knowledge.
I've heard good things about Tilted Barn. Too bad I have very little reasons to go that far south when in New England. I'm usually headed in the opposite direction!
mikeroesoft
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The best NE styled IPA I've made to date was with WY1968. It was unreal. I've now tried twice since to reproduce it and both attempts have come up short. One came up particularly short...frustrating to say the least. I think it has to do with my ferm schedule as 1968 tends to work faster than most and then drops before I ramp up. Not 100% sure though. I'm going to try it again soon, but I'm taking a bit of a break from brewing hoppy beers. Next up for me is a dark mild.
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ThePaleAleIndian
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What was missing from the ones that came up short? Or did they have flavors/aromas you didn't want?
tilted barn is good, i'm pretty certain they are using conan but ferm super low to avoid the peachiness most these breweries seem to throw with conan that i just can't stand. Talk to the brewer and his dad for a while last time i was there, super cool dudes. they just started getting popular since he started making things hazy....
mikeroesoft
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Good question. I am not 100% sure. I will start by saying that I was gong more for a light on the tongue and balanced pale ale strength, Hill Farmstead style hoppy beer more than I was going for the intensity of a sweeter, Treehouse style hoppy beer. The really bad beer I made picked up diacetyl from dry hopping which ruined it as I am pretty sensitive to that off flavor. IME, WY1968 works on a different schedule than say 1318. I think it's more important with this yeast that you make sure to increase the ferm temp after active fermentation to be sure it doesn't floc out prematurely. 1968 also flocs faster than 1318 so this can happen before you have a chance to keep it on course. The other thing with WY1968 is that it really doesn't attenuate well, which is a good thing as long as you keep it in mind when developing the recipe and mashing schedule. Mashing at 156F for a pale ale is fine, but next time I am going to try draining the MT to the kettle right after conversion, skipping the mashout and sparging with ~150F water. I found that mashing higher (155F-158F) in combination with the lower attenuation of WY1968, any long chain sugars produced while the grain bed is between 159-165F (during the rise from mash temp to mashout temp and also loss of temp during sparging) are cloying and detract from the balance of the beer. I need to get better mash temp control! Additionally, I have a hunch that the diacetyl produced during dry hoping is at least in part a result of the yeast struggling with the longer chain sugars instead of converting all of the diacetyl precursor. I realize a d-test would help identify the problem, but I didn't notice any diacetyl in the beer sample prior to dry hopping and skipped the d-test.
I love the esters from this yeast and they balance well with hops as long as they're kept in check and balanced. The mouthfeel and foam are also really, really great. I actually prefer it to 1318, at least for pale ales, but it doesn't have as wide a sweet spot as 1318 and can taste out of place if the beer is unbalanced.
Here is a pic of my best hoppy beer to date, fermented with WY1968, Simcoe in boil and flameout with Simcoe, Citra and Nelson in Dry hop.... OG 1.055, FG 1.015
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melville
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looks, sounds perfect.
couchsending
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002 seems relatively easy to dry out in my opinion. If you need a lower FG for a higher ABV beer you need to do what Firestone Walker does and step mash it with a long rest at 145 to minimize Maltotriose. Sugar is a must as well. Anything over probably 6.5% needs sugar to get that lower FG.
002 is awesome once you get to know it. I’m not fully there yet but my beers have gotten way better with it lately. Due to its crazy high flocculation it has maybe a different set of needs when it comes to O2, nutrients, and pitch rate. I’ve had the best luck with slightly overpitching and lots of O2. It might be the easiest yeast to make Diacetyl bombs with as it will appear even when you think it’s all cleaned up. Dry Hopping and adding sugar to carbonate can do it every time. Both Firestone and Crrature Comforts recommend the exact same Ferm schedule for it, pitch at 64 ferment at 66, but make sure it climbs to 68 at just the right time to clean up as much Diacetyl as possible. Sounds like sometimes rousing it is key depending on the fermentation. Firestone dry hops with some active fermentation but Creature Comforts waits until it’s completed and they have pulled the yeast, and at over 70* which probably helps with Diacetyl cleanup.
002 is awesome once you get to know it. I’m not fully there yet but my beers have gotten way better with it lately. Due to its crazy high flocculation it has maybe a different set of needs when it comes to O2, nutrients, and pitch rate. I’ve had the best luck with slightly overpitching and lots of O2. It might be the easiest yeast to make Diacetyl bombs with as it will appear even when you think it’s all cleaned up. Dry Hopping and adding sugar to carbonate can do it every time. Both Firestone and Crrature Comforts recommend the exact same Ferm schedule for it, pitch at 64 ferment at 66, but make sure it climbs to 68 at just the right time to clean up as much Diacetyl as possible. Sounds like sometimes rousing it is key depending on the fermentation. Firestone dry hops with some active fermentation but Creature Comforts waits until it’s completed and they have pulled the yeast, and at over 70* which probably helps with Diacetyl cleanup.
ThePaleAleIndian
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Yeah, with 1968 I've had good results and upwards of 80% apparent attenuation pitching a 2 quart stir plate starter into relatively cold 60F wort and ramping the temp to 68F after the first 48 hours or so. No simple sugar adjuncts or additional wort oxygenation, but sub-147F mash temp and a long 2 hour sacch. rest. No mash out. This was for an OG in the mid 1.060s. Still made a beer with some nice residual sweetness with that strategy for me, even with no crystal malts. That was also naturally carbing with canned wort from brew day, which may affect diacetyl resulting from dry hopping, etc.
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ThePaleAleIndian
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That beer looks and sounds awesome. I think you just solidified my decision to revisit 1968 for the style!
campfire
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Long, long time lurker on this thread. Read all 1871 posts, and learned a ton (sincere thanks to all those that contributed). Stumbled upon here while searching for yeast cultivation and mixing.
Unfortunately I can't say that I've drank a TH beer, so I have zero point of reference in this regards however what I was looking achieve was the "bubblegum" aroma and character that the WB-06 could lend without using so much that it turned into a Hefe and overpowered and otherwise great beer. What I ended up going with was 75% S-04, with 25% WB-06, co-pitched, creating a starter for each two days before I brewed (I had brewed the identical recipe previously, using only S-04 and it turned out fantastic). I always create a starter, even for the Dry Yeast varieties - I just feel that it creates a superior beer, not to mention jump starts fermentation - typically within 4-6 hours I'll see activity in the airlock. I pitched the yeast at 80, then dropped the temp down to 74 for 3 days, and brought it down to 68 for the rest of the time in the fermenter. This recipe calls for a dry hopping @ 2 days (while fermentation is still active).
The co-pitched beer turned out exactly as hoped. It was 98% true to the original recipe, however with a faint bubblegum aroma, and a more rounded, soft flavor overall (the previous version could come off a bit citrusy, almost like you were drinking juice). No clove or even banana to speak of - although bubblegum could be construed as banana to some people. You wouldn't really catch the bubblegum unless you were looking for it, however it's present enough to just make it a much more interesting beer. I was very happy with it and will likely keep using this same mix.
Once again, thanks to all that commented here - this board is truly a wealth of knowledge that I personally drink from quite often.
Cheers!
Josh
Unfortunately I can't say that I've drank a TH beer, so I have zero point of reference in this regards however what I was looking achieve was the "bubblegum" aroma and character that the WB-06 could lend without using so much that it turned into a Hefe and overpowered and otherwise great beer. What I ended up going with was 75% S-04, with 25% WB-06, co-pitched, creating a starter for each two days before I brewed (I had brewed the identical recipe previously, using only S-04 and it turned out fantastic). I always create a starter, even for the Dry Yeast varieties - I just feel that it creates a superior beer, not to mention jump starts fermentation - typically within 4-6 hours I'll see activity in the airlock. I pitched the yeast at 80, then dropped the temp down to 74 for 3 days, and brought it down to 68 for the rest of the time in the fermenter. This recipe calls for a dry hopping @ 2 days (while fermentation is still active).
The co-pitched beer turned out exactly as hoped. It was 98% true to the original recipe, however with a faint bubblegum aroma, and a more rounded, soft flavor overall (the previous version could come off a bit citrusy, almost like you were drinking juice). No clove or even banana to speak of - although bubblegum could be construed as banana to some people. You wouldn't really catch the bubblegum unless you were looking for it, however it's present enough to just make it a much more interesting beer. I was very happy with it and will likely keep using this same mix.
Once again, thanks to all that commented here - this board is truly a wealth of knowledge that I personally drink from quite often.
Cheers!
Josh
melville
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was this with one pack of 1318? Also, can you compare to a solo—1318 batch?
Cevan65
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It was a 500ml starter.
Current batch doesn't have that residual sweetness that my prior beers (just 1318) had. Had to compare apples to apples as all my beers are experimental. I've also started to dry hops without a bag, just throwing them in and relying on cold crashing to clear things up.
ThePaleAleIndian
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I feel like this is key for these beers to get that hop saturation. The one attempt that I dry hopped in bags just wasn't the same. My standard process is to dry hop loose, but I wanted to experiment with skipping the cold crash on that one. The takeaway for me was that it is much better to cold crash and dry hop loose than to bag and not crash.
My most recent attempt was dry hopped loose in the keg (stainless diptube filter) as well as in the fermenter. I was VERY happy with the hop saturation on that one.
I do loose with dip tube. I've found that I have to have three things going on for a clean transfer to keg:
1) there can't be much carbonation
2) the PSI of the transfer must be below 5
3) I had to cut the dip tube a lot shorter than some bloggers have said that they did
If one of those isn't going on, either yeast gets sucked through the screen and into the serving keg, or hop particles crowd the ever loving hell out of the bottom of the screen
1) there can't be much carbonation
2) the PSI of the transfer must be below 5
3) I had to cut the dip tube a lot shorter than some bloggers have said that they did
If one of those isn't going on, either yeast gets sucked through the screen and into the serving keg, or hop particles crowd the ever loving hell out of the bottom of the screen
I did not cold crash my latest attempt, which involved 4 ounces loose dry hop in the carboy before a closed transfer to a serving keg with shortened dip tube and screen (with a 2nd dry hop). Was a real PITA, led to clogged poppets, had to push the beer in through the gas-in post, which made me cringe.
Definitely cold crashing next time.
thunderaxe
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maybe a bit off-topic but this brings up a question i've been meaning to ask of people with experience brewing NEIPAs. how do you feel about:
1) using whirlfloc or other protein-coagulation aids in the boil
2) cold crashing (the consensus seems to be in favour)
3) using finings e.g. gelatin or biofine.
i've been using whirlfloc habitually in every beer i've brewed so far because the general consensus seems to be that it removes the proteins you don't want, but i'm not convinced that's necessarily true for NEIPAs;
and cold crashing has not been enough to keep the finished product from having way too much yeast in it (i bottle condition) so i've used biofine in my last couple of beers and it has worked great at keeping the yeast bite out but it also seems to clear away all the protein/hop haze in addition to the yeast, negating the wheat and oats i put in there.
1) using whirlfloc or other protein-coagulation aids in the boil
2) cold crashing (the consensus seems to be in favour)
3) using finings e.g. gelatin or biofine.
i've been using whirlfloc habitually in every beer i've brewed so far because the general consensus seems to be that it removes the proteins you don't want, but i'm not convinced that's necessarily true for NEIPAs;
and cold crashing has not been enough to keep the finished product from having way too much yeast in it (i bottle condition) so i've used biofine in my last couple of beers and it has worked great at keeping the yeast bite out but it also seems to clear away all the protein/hop haze in addition to the yeast, negating the wheat and oats i put in there.
ThePaleAleIndian
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Yeah, I've had similar experiences with dry hopping loose and not crashing. It does transfer a lot of hop material over. As far as transferring in through the gas side, I have done that but not without some modifications to the setup. I actually assembled the keg with two long dip tubes. Not sure if all kegs are receptive to that, but it worked well for me. The one on the liquid side had the filter on it, and it was as it would be for the life of the keg (this was the serving keg). I transferred in through the gas side long dip tube and, just before purging the headspace after the transfer, I quickly swapped out the gas side dip tube for the standard short one. Worked great. But I had cold crashed the primary on that one anyway.
ThePaleAleIndian
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I am a big fan of cold crashing, especially on beers that are dry hopped loose.
I don't use finings of any kind for any style, kettle or otherwise. Nothing against finings, just not my personal preference.
