There was nothing there. They cleared land for it. The cleaning chemicals don't neutralize each other at every point. They wouldn't do anything if they did. The whole purpose is that they go through the plumbing as a non neutral solution
Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?
- Thread starter isomerization
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk:
There was nothing there. They cleared land for it. The cleaning chemicals don't neutralize each other at every point. They wouldn't do anything if they did. The whole purpose is that they go through the plumbing as a non neutral solution
What is the purpose of running them through the plumbing? Never heard of this, ever. Doesnt make any sense.
Cleared land could still have been a factory 100 years ago so industrial contamination still possible. And if the brewery is new then the likelihood of metals coming from the plumbing is even lower. As i said, id bet the waste lines are cast iron, abs or pvc. Typical modern plumbing systems. And Iron wasn't listed by the testers.
Might be the testing is picking up outside sources. Too far downstream from their discharge point, leaks in sewer lines, dirty sludge in the sewer lines, etc.
MA doesnt allow PVC waste lines in commercial buildings.
edit: there's no point in continuing this discussion. It is fully 
ThePaleAleIndian
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2017
- Messages
- 283
- Reaction score
- 172
Hey guys, first post ever! This thread is amazing and motivated me to finally sign up!
I just kegged a beer I made using some of the information on this thread. I used 11.5 g S-04, 1 g WB-06 and 0.9 g T-58, co-pitched at 78F. I believe that ratio comes out to something like 85.8/7.5/6.7% S-04/WB-06/T-58. This is for a 5 gal batch, 6 gal into primary. I kegged with 36 oz of gyle from this batch's wort as primer to keg condition and 2 g of CBC-1. I tasted the hydrometer sample last night during kegging and it tasted a lot more hef-y than I would like, both clove and banana. Assuming it doesn't change drastically while conditioning with the CBC-1, I think next time I will cut the WB-06 down quite a bit and bump up the T-58. Maybe something like 85/3/12% S-04/WB-06/T-58.
I just kegged a beer I made using some of the information on this thread. I used 11.5 g S-04, 1 g WB-06 and 0.9 g T-58, co-pitched at 78F. I believe that ratio comes out to something like 85.8/7.5/6.7% S-04/WB-06/T-58. This is for a 5 gal batch, 6 gal into primary. I kegged with 36 oz of gyle from this batch's wort as primer to keg condition and 2 g of CBC-1. I tasted the hydrometer sample last night during kegging and it tasted a lot more hef-y than I would like, both clove and banana. Assuming it doesn't change drastically while conditioning with the CBC-1, I think next time I will cut the WB-06 down quite a bit and bump up the T-58. Maybe something like 85/3/12% S-04/WB-06/T-58.
Yeah I can't see that there would have been anything there. Who knows with those towns though. Maybe stuff was dumped there. On a route that was busy back in the day when companies didn't care.
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
fwiw, I have yet to get any fruit, juice or Tree House character from T-58. Maybe someone can chime in on what temp got them there. I'm pretty dubious tbh. My most serious attempt was S-04 and T-58 with Comet single hop. I thought it was too thin and didn't notice T-58 giving me anything that I particularly wanted. The caveat is that Comet is a crazy hop, and it may not jive well with that yeast combo
In my perfect scenario it would be discovered that all their beers but Julius. Haze, and Doppleganger are the cause of the toxins and they just decide to keep to those recipes. It's a bummer when I have free time to drive out there and they have Bright or Lights on or some other one I don't care about....
have you had Doubleganger? It's ridiculously good. Haze gives me heartburn. Oddly enough, so does Oskar Blues' Pinner.
not to be confused with doppleganger!
I love Doppleganger. I should add that I like Green too but I live 5 minutes away from Trillium and their stuff is equal to Green IMO.
I'm totally content with the stuff I brew on my own but to me Julius my target.
I'm totally content with the stuff I brew on my own but to me Julius my target.
I have yet to hit Julius levels of flavor, but I think that I can regularly hit Trillium if I'm using the right hop variety. Last time I was back home, Trillium was the only brewery in Boston worth much. I don't see what is so good about Night Shift.
I would be curious to see an analysis of Trillium yeast, but my experience with their beers tells me that there is a good chance that nothing is terribly special
I would be curious to see an analysis of Trillium yeast, but my experience with their beers tells me that there is a good chance that nothing is terribly special
edit: there's no point in continuing this discussion. It is fully
when you're in a hole, stop digging.
and if anyone else is capable of doing the testing, i've got F2 to use for carbing. i emailed the rep to see if its also a "killer" strain but havent gotten a response yet after two weeks or so. the price differential for F2 vs CBC is pretty dramatic, if we're still thinking they use dry fermentis for primary then id be shocked if they used cbc instead of the f2.
You can take this insulting attitude and leave the thread. I had an actual response, but arguing goes no where. The point of this thread is for discussing the yeast that Tree House uses, and our attempts to recreate their flavor profile.
Agreed. I think my stuff is pretty close to trillium when using 1318. Im hoping the latest batch with 04/ t58 etc isnt a wasted batch. I sèe a lot of anti 04 threads
ThePaleAleIndian
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2017
- Messages
- 283
- Reaction score
- 172
Good to know, thanks. Out of curiosity, what temp did you pitch/ferment that attempt at? Not sure if you already mentioned this in an earlier post, but how many total grams did you pitch into how many gallons?
I pitched at 78F and didn't temp control this one which is a departure from other NEIPAs I've done (all with 1318). In the past I have pitched 1318 at 60F and raised the temp to 72F over the first 72 hours. This one just sat at a pretty steady 72F ambient. I pitched 13.4 g total into ~6 gal for 5 gal kegged.
You know, the one other thing I was thinking is that I doughed in at about 100F and decoction mashed this one (I know, I know, but I do it pretty often because I enjoy it). But then I remembered reading a BYO article that said that a mash rest just above 100F can make ferulic acid, which is a precursor to the clove phenol. I definitely got a perceptible amount of clove on this one. I mean, it doesn't scream hef, but there's more of that than I wanted, and certainly more than in any Treehouse beer I've had. Single infusion next time I guess.
I haven't seen a lot of recent anti 04 threads. I have made it my go to for NEIPAs. It is so easy to just dump a packet or two into my wort, no starter the night before, works for me.
Regarding T-58 flavors - I mainly get tons of bubble gum out of this yeast, some juicy quality but I mainly attribute that to my hops and residual sugars - T-58 for me, does not attenuate well, especially when compared to other Belgian strains. I make a Belgian IPA, pitch at 70, and ferment at 75, Cascade hops in the boil and double dry hopped with Citra. Mash at 152 - OG around 1.064, finishes around 1.014-16. This beer can definitely be described as juicy and screams bubble gum and citrus. However, I do not see much TH character in it.
I'm personally not convinced they are intentionally using T-58. Fermentis/dry yeast is notorious for not being pure - after multiple harvests/repitches the populations of secondary/tertiary yeasts present could grow to the levels we are seeing. These beers have a LOT of hop character, and hops can really cover some stuff up (like low levels of ester contributed by yeasts like T-58).
I'm personally not convinced they are intentionally using T-58. Fermentis/dry yeast is notorious for not being pure - after multiple harvests/repitches the populations of secondary/tertiary yeasts present could grow to the levels we are seeing. These beers have a LOT of hop character, and hops can really cover some stuff up (like low levels of ester contributed by yeasts like T-58).
OP
OP
isomerization
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2017
- Messages
- 1,422
- Reaction score
- 890
Im not saying your theory can't be correct, but how would it be much different than what is being done here? That is, overwhelming majority of S-04 with minor populations of T-58 (I definitely echo the bubble gum aroma experience) and WB-06. Do you have any links to discussions of contaminated dry yeasts? I'm interested in what ratio we are talking about here. Also, based on how Nate acts (online interactions and the court of public opinion), I highly doubt they are re-pitching yeast and certainly not without testing it in a lab. This guy is supposedly the biggest control freak ever...
My genetic tests relied on recovering yeast from the dregs of pretty much every one of TH's main lineup. The ratios are meaningless, but what isn't (imo), is that different yeast strains were picked up. "Matching" them to Fermentis products is speculative, but strongly so (again imo). I grew up starters of each isolate and the S-04 like strain flocced hard when it was done, the T-58 smelled literally like juicy fruit gum and the WB-06 had a weird tartness to it (could provide juice descriptors at low levels?). So there is some phenotypic support to the genotypic data too.
Anyways, I have personally stuck with using 1318 sans temp control (peak temps around 74-76) as I enjoy the final product immensely. I do plan to come back to testing these yeast (I like the idea of dry yeast v. dealing with starters and harvesting yeast).
melville
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2016
- Messages
- 422
- Reaction score
- 337
I've taken to doing the first DH with this trio at roughly 24 hrs. By 48 hours these guys have done the vast majority of their work and one thing I've noticed in going through my notes, is that when I miss that "peak" the beers visually aren't the same. Schedule now is DH at 24 and DH #2 by day 4 so there's just a bit left to push out any O2 that gets in, because these beers are done by day 6 or 7. Quick crash and closed transfer to keg with DH #3 and condition for 7 days, then cold condition for a 2-3 days.
Thanks! Will definitely implement. so the beers only look different, but how is the taste?
It is seems it is much different - the yeast blends are all coming off too spicy/phenolic or tart - neither of which are things I detect in treehouse beers. The only non-Enlgish character I get is bubblegum, but surprisingly, that has been detected in our house IPAs from time to time during bi-monthly employee sensory.
The data I have is mainly from our own plates - we have been using S-04 for our hoppy beers for over a year now (we originally used wlp007 but found S-04 better for our hoppy beers... and cheaper). Generally we plate our FVs on day 5 of fermentation - at about generation 3 we start to see other yeast morphologies start to pop up - we have not bothered to get these other yeasts sequenced...yet.
Also, a good friend who works at a renowned QA lab in town for the alcohol industry (think of any major brewery/distillery and they have very likely used his company to do QA/QC work) has confirmed fresh bricks of S-05 to be unpure - I can only assume S-04 would be the same.
I don't know Nate or much about him, but I would be surprised if he did not harvest and repitch any of his yeast. I don't know of any other major brewery that doesn't practice this, but maybe that's whats so special about TH!
Like I said, I'm not convinced it's an actual blend - But who knows! I'm wrong about a lot of things but always trying to learn and that's why I still come to these forums and participate in awesome threads like this.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
But is that contamination of the original, contamination that's been picked up in the brewery, or just morphology mutants of the S-04? Don't think you have evidence to claim that it must be the first??
<European brewer>The whole pure strain thing is overrated, let them evolve and adapt to the brewery....
</Eb>
couchsending
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2016
- Messages
- 3,063
- Reaction score
- 2,256
I still don’t think the yeast blend is added at the beginning of fermentation.
Just did an interesting experiment where I mashed high (156) and used 1469 (man is that a weird acting yeast). Ended at 1.022 then I bumped it up to 70, added some enzymes, bagged DH addition, and a gram of WB-06. 2 days later down to 1.012. Gravity samples tasted great and no real phenols, too early to tell though. It’s sitting at 55 to hopefully get that 1469 to at least drop slightly but I think it might take a while.
I’m really starting to believe that the different yeasts are added towards the end of fermentation with either sugar additions and/or DH additions just to add that little bit of complexity and munch on any O2 added by DH.
Just did an interesting experiment where I mashed high (156) and used 1469 (man is that a weird acting yeast). Ended at 1.022 then I bumped it up to 70, added some enzymes, bagged DH addition, and a gram of WB-06. 2 days later down to 1.012. Gravity samples tasted great and no real phenols, too early to tell though. It’s sitting at 55 to hopefully get that 1469 to at least drop slightly but I think it might take a while.
I’m really starting to believe that the different yeasts are added towards the end of fermentation with either sugar additions and/or DH additions just to add that little bit of complexity and munch on any O2 added by DH.
Hey Skibb where do you brew? I work in Lex some. I agree with what you say. I cant imagine a large production facility blending dry yeast strains. I could be wrong. Ive always used 007 for my hoppy beers. What do you like more about 04 other than the ease and cost? Ive learned a lot from this thread, thanks.
What is the purity of a brick of S-04. To make it simplistic let's say they use 1000 gram bricks. If it's 95% pure and the rest is others, will 50 grams of other yeast be enough to change the character of a beer? Maybe that's why temp control is key?
I know this will add tons of variables with which we think Nate does not appreciate, but it could explain why some beers have all three strains and the others only have two??
I could be way off... Just trying to think this through
I know this will add tons of variables with which we think Nate does not appreciate, but it could explain why some beers have all three strains and the others only have two??
I could be way off... Just trying to think this through
I never claimed it must be anything other than other yeasts.
Until we get them sequenced, we really don't know if they are other Fermentis strains, or ambient wild yeasts introduced through other means than the brick.
We have on a couple occasions, seen more than one morphology starting with generation 0. Our cleaning/sanitation practices are very very strict - we place an incredible amount of importance on quality, which is one of the reasons we have a lab and a micro biologist onsite. This isn't to say we could be introducing the contamination ourselves, but I find it hard to believe an ambient yeast grows to detectable proportions concurrently with a fresh pitch from 1.5 bricks of S-04.
@Dog House Brew
I brew at Ethereal on Manchester St.
For me, S-04 is an easier yeast to use, it does not flocculate as hard/compact as much as WLP007, so it is easier to harvest. Other than that, flavors are pretty similar, we do seem to get more esters out of S-04, which I think compliment the hops better.
Thanks for the info Skibb. Ill definitely stop by when Im in Lex. Like your place and the focus styles. Ill have to revisit 04 on a split of my next ipa batch.
With the possibility of a brick of s-04 not being 100% pure, what would the other yeast in there be? Could it be anything? Could it be wb-06 and t-58? Maybe they're just using s04 and the tests made by isomerization are picking up those "other" yeasts. It could be that TH doesn't even blend! Who knows... at the end of the day we just have to keep experimenting.
