Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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thinking out loud- Cacl and gypsum to start, then lose half your calcium with spent grains, then come back and add epsom, kcl or nacl to kettl.

id think you could see low calcium with high so4/cl with this protocol no?
 
melville said:
It does sort of seem like KCl could explain his Ca and Na numbers and his tweet.
Click to expand...

The tweets do start to make more sense but man is he vague or confusing.

Just to clarify, the softener just gives a steady base of low calcium water. The potassium contribution is probably small in that step but not insignificant. The KCl addition to the mash or boil kettle is more significant but the two combined could explain the high potassium levels. Also, wheat and oats tend to be higher in potassium but I can't find a solid source for that...

Any thoughts on the high Alkalinity? My thought is high mash pH but I'm not sure what yeast can do to Alkalinity during fermentation. Would a baking soda addition during fermentation stop the pH drop? Just wild speculation at this point.
 
High mash Ph leads to high boil PH which can lead to harsher bitterness. I think most would agree TH house beers are not very harsh in the bitterness dept. Everyone thinks Nate is full of **** when he says Julius is 80 or so calculated IBUs.

Alkalinity always confuses me... can you have high RA even If your PH parameters are all correct. Or does all the acid/CA you have to add to get PH inline just precipitate all the bicarbonate out? Obviously from the BYO article Alkalinity of his water started at a certain level and then ended below zero with the copious amounts of CA and acid malt.
 
couchsending said:
High mash Ph leads to high boil PH which can lead to harsher bitterness. I think most would agree TH house beers are not very harsh in the bitterness dept. Everyone thinks Nate is full of **** when he says Julius is 80 or so calculated IBUs.

Alkalinity always confuses me... can you have high RA even If your PH parameters are all correct. Or does all the acid/CA you have to add to get PH inline just precipitate all the bicarbonate out? Obviously from the BYO article Alkalinity of his water started at a certain level and then ended below zero with the copious amounts of CA and acid malt.
Click to expand...

hmm...
I don't think he's full of **** about (as calculated by most software/theoretical) IBUs. They used to list IBUs on the beer descriptions for Julius (72.4) and Green (90). The numbers were high, the beers are even more hop saturated now, the numbers are probably higher.


but back to the water, @couchsending does your haze report have similar K numbers. Do your HF reports?
 
I don't think he's full of it either. I fully believe that the IBUs are that high in their beers. But for some reason people think they aren't... consequently you have tons of home brewers not adding any hops until whirlpool to not make the beer too "bitter" which in my opinion is dumb. Like it's necessary for the NEIPA style... The best examples of the style are incredibly high in IBUs in my opinion.

Those Potassium numbers are really high compared to the haze and HF numbers I have. However they're close to the numbers for Aslin Mind The Hop that I have seen posted. They advertise that as a single hop Citra beer.
Anyone have any idea what malts they use in their hoppy beers? I know nothing about them.

Not sure what to make of the higher potassium unless there is a certain malt or maybe oats that adds even more potassium.

Anyone have an Idip? I feel like you could do some varying degrees of cross referencing by measuring amounts as you go along. can't remember how accurate they are though.
 
Those Aslin numbers...really high on the Cl —554 vs TH at 421. Mg is high, implying some epsom. K is just as high as TH but Ca is higher too, maybe CaCl and KCl? (To me it seems some of these commercial examples are going higher than home brewer conventional wisdom thinks.)
 
The IBU is not an applicable measurement of perceived bitterness in a lot of cases. Sure, the NEIPAs may have >80 IBUs, but it won't taste like that, and that's the point. I would be surprised if those IBUs were largely coming from a traditional 60 min bittering addition. IBU calculators do weird things once you are post boil, and I do not think they are very accurate wrt perceived bitterness
 
Man, this is fascinating. The alkalinity in Alter Ego is something that really sticks out to me as surprising.

@couchsending Do you have alkalinity numbers for HF?
 
Would adding chalk (CaCO3) post fermentation contribute to an increase in alkalinity without much Ca uptake? Would the Ca be insoluble?
 
So just thinking out loud, but it makes a lot of sense to me that TH could be using KCl for chloride. Malt apparently contains a lot of K, so the chloride would come without adding anything that wouldn't be there anyway.

The alkalinity has me thinking as well. My attempt was a lot more tart than any TH beer I've had, which has been making me wonder if they are using more alkaline water and mashing at high pH. Fwiw, I feel like my high chloride beers have had much less perceived bitterness, so the chloride may help balance the harsher bitterness theoretically extracted at higher pH? These mineral results are at least consistent with that. What I am now wondering is this: maybe their water has high bi-/carbonate alkalinity and low calcium and they add gypsum for a little sulfate and KCl for a bunch of chloride? Some of that Ca would precipitate out, but not all of that would be with HCO3. Phosphates from the malt would take some of it too is my hunch, so some alkalinity would make it through.

If I lived in the area, I would love to grab a sample from a water fountain at the brewery on a canning run day (not sure if they have one), or ask for a glass of water when they're serving pints and getting that tested at Ward. Even knowing full well that they could be cutting with distilled/RO. I would think they must have some fraction of their local water. So maybe knowing the alkalinity of their ground water would be another piece of the puzzle.

Anyone know if they are on a well or city water?
 
Stating the obvious, but using KCl seems rare and worse it isn't an option that I see in beersmith or B'run water. If I Occam's razor this it seems unlikely, but I can't get these numbers to work in my software with just CaCl, etc.
 
Basing water profiles off those of finished beers is a very long and winding rabbit hole. Malt and process alter it sooooo much. If you really want to go there brew two totally different profiles and send each into Ward Labs to see what you get. Or get an iDip.

If you want to base something of a commercial beer Skadoosh is maybe a good one as you know it’s all Pearl.
 
This one I kept at 60-62F and I got 1.016 and has a sweeter finish, less tartness. Hit that FG day 3. Day 5 brought up to 72, crashed day 6, kegged day 7, with no change in FG. That's 20% carafoam and 10% flaked oats. Conditioning with CBC-1 and another dry hop.

View attachment IMG_1146.jpg
 
Amazed you can get FG that quick at such a low temp... what is your pitch rate? Rehydrated?
 
StinkyBeer said:
Melville - And...how does it taste?
Click to expand...



Sample tastes very good, no off flavors and like I said, was surprised that the tart was subdued and some sweetness coming in. Will see how it comes out after a week of conditioning.
 
melville said:
This one I kept at 60-62F and I got 1.016 and has a sweeter finish, less tartness. Hit that FG day 3. Day 5 brought up to 72, crashed day 6, kegged day 7, with no change in FG. That's 20% carafoam and 10% flaked oats. Conditioning with CBC-1 and another dry hop.

View attachment 420301
Click to expand...

Looks awesome! Glad to hear there was no weirdness. I am planning on doing almost exactly this yeast ratio and temp for my next attempt, very similar grist too. My main complaints with my last one (other than the clove) was that it was too tart and didn't have enough sweetness, so I'm excited to try this even more now.

What kind and how much sugar did you prime with?
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
Looks awesome! Glad to hear there was no weirdness. I am planning on doing almost exactly this yeast ratio and temp for my next attempt, very similar grist too. My main complaints with my last one (other than the clove) was that it was too tart and didn't have enough sweetness, so I'm excited to try this even more now.

What kind and how much sugar did you prime with?
Click to expand...

Just table sugar. For 2.5 gal I used 25.33g for 2.3 using beersmith's calculations.
 
StinkyBeer said:
Care to elaborate? Did you send some samples off?
Click to expand...

I did

Two beers. NA levels Pilsner = 89, IIPA = 90

I’ve heard they have a softener which is probably where the NA comes from.

Palmer has good things to say about the contributions of NA levels from 70-150ppm

Noonan does as well
 
I&#8217;m thinking NaCl as a kettle addition...try and hit a water profile of 200ppm Cl with <100 Ca.
 
I don’t know... having two separate beers that are rather different have the exact same ppm number just says to me that there is a softner that adds a specific amount to their water for all beers. Could be wrong.

Been brewing a few different pils lately and been starting at around 40ppm NA and have been amazed how full and round they are even at 1.009 and SO4 levels around 100. Maybe it’s the CL, maybe it the NA?
 
I've been thinking about this water stuff as well. Looking at the Ward lab results in the BYO article a couple of pages ago, Michael's beer was pretty consistent with Heady Topper except for the SO4/Cl ratio. I mean, across the board, including Ca, Mg, Na and K. If you compare that to the Alter Ego results, Michael's SO4/Cl is pretty close, but the Ca is way low on Alter Ego and the K is way high. Sorry that this is just stating the obvious so far. But I feel like KCl is a pretty elegant solution to this. It would keep the Ca low and put Cl and K in the ballpark. The other possibility is that TH is using some combination of malts to get there, but the K is so much higher and Ca so much lower for the same SO4 + Cl than Heady or Michael's beer that I feel like KCl is more likely.

So... I added KCl to the spreadsheet I use for my water adjustment. I'm not necessarily trying to match the specific numbers from Alter Ego, being that a lot goes on between brewing liquor and finished beer. But I feel like it's safe to say TH's adjusted brewing water is most likely high Cl, some SO4, relatively soft with some alkalinity.

So my local water profile is:
Ca 25 ppm
Mg 8 ppm
Na 5 ppm
Cl 11 ppm
SO4 23 ppm
HCO3 96 ppm
K 0 ppm

If I cut to 3/8 distilled, I get:
Ca 16 ppm
Mg 5 ppm
Na 3 ppm
Cl 7 ppm
SO4 15 ppm
HCO3 60 ppm
K 0 ppm

For 5 gal of strike water, if I add 2.8 g of CaSO4-2H2O and 7.5 g of KCl, I get:
Ca 50 ppm
Mg 5 ppm
Na 3 ppm
Cl 195 ppm
SO4 97 ppm
HCO3 60 ppm
K 208 ppm

I think this is the profile I'm going to try to hit for my next attempt. About 200 ppm Cl with a 2:1 Cl:SO4 with 50 ppm Ca, some of which will precipitate out. Not worried about the K because a lot comes with the malt anyway. Hopefully this will get me close. I collect mash/strike and sparge water separately and will adjust both to the same profile. Brewday isn't until Dec. 2nd though. Pre-negotiated with SWMBO haha.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
I've been thinking about this water stuff as well. Looking at the Ward lab results in the BYO article a couple of pages ago, Michael's beer was pretty consistent with Heady Topper except for the SO4/Cl ratio. I mean, across the board, including Ca, Mg, Na and K. If you compare that to the Alter Ego results, Michael's SO4/Cl is pretty close, but the Ca is way low on Alter Ego and the K is way high. Sorry that this is just stating the obvious so far. But I feel like KCl is a pretty elegant solution to this. It would keep the Ca low and put Cl and K in the ballpark. The other possibility is that TH is using some combination of malts to get there, but the K is so much higher and Ca so much lower for the same SO4 + Cl than Heady or Michael's beer that I feel like KCl is more likely.

So... I added KCl to the spreadsheet I use for my water adjustment. I'm not necessarily trying to match the specific numbers from Alter Ego, being that a lot goes on between brewing liquor and finished beer. But I feel like it's safe to say TH's adjusted brewing water is most likely high Cl, some SO4, relatively soft with some alkalinity.

So my local water profile is:
Ca 25 ppm
Mg 8 ppm
Na 5 ppm
Cl 11 ppm
SO4 23 ppm
HCO3 96 ppm
K 0 ppm

If I cut to 3/8 distilled, I get:
Ca 16 ppm
Mg 5 ppm
Na 3 ppm
Cl 7 ppm
SO4 15 ppm
HCO3 60 ppm
K 0 ppm

For 5 gal of strike water, if I add 2.8 g of CaSO4-2H2O and 7.5 g of KCl, I get:
Ca 50 ppm
Mg 5 ppm
Na 3 ppm
Cl 195 ppm
SO4 97 ppm
HCO3 60 ppm
K 208 ppm

I think this is the profile I'm going to try to hit for my next attempt. About 200 ppm Cl with a 2:1 Cl:SO4 with 50 ppm Ca, some of which will precipitate out. Not worried about the K because a lot comes with the malt anyway. Hopefully this will get me close. I collect mash/strike and sparge water separately and will adjust both to the same profile. Brewday isn't until Dec. 2nd though. Pre-negotiated with SWMBO haha.
Click to expand...

Where/how do you get the numbers for KCl? I don't see it as option in beersmith, b'run, etc.
 
melville said:
Where/how do you get the numbers for KCl? I don't see it as option in beersmith, b'run, etc.
Click to expand...

Weight for weight there is less chloride in KCl than in NaCl, so if you can't add KCl to a spreadsheet, but you can add NaCl to the same spreadsheet, then in order to achieve a certain level of chloride in ppm you must multiply the weight of added NaCl by 1.276 in order to convert to the amount of KCl to be added in order to achieve the exact same level of chloride ions.

For example: 0.5 grams of NaCl added to 5 gallons of water yield a chloride ion concentration of 16 ppm.

To achieve 16 ppm using KCl instead of NaCl:
0.5 g NaCl x 1.276 = 0.638 g KCl

Therefore: Adding 0.638 g. of KCl will give you the same ppm Cl- concentration as for adding 0.5 g. of NaCl
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
Weight for weight there is less chloride in KCl than in NaCl, so if you can't add KCl to a spreadsheet, but you can add NaCl to the same spreadsheet, then in order to achieve a certain level of chloride in ppm you must multiply the weight of added NaCl by 1.276 in order to convert to the amount of KCl to be added in order to achieve the exact same level of chloride ions.

For example: 0.5 grams of NaCl added to 5 gallons of water yield a chloride ion concentration of 16 ppm.

To achieve 16 ppm using KCl instead of NaCl:
0.5 g NaCl x 1.276 = 0.638 g KCl

Therefore: Adding 0.638 g. of KCl will give you the same ppm Cl- concentration as for adding 0.5 g. of NaCl
Click to expand...

Thanks for numbers... Now I'm also noticing KCl doesn't appear to be something homebrew shops appear to stock.
 
melville said:
Thanks for numbers... Now I'm also noticing KCl doesn't appear to be something homebrew shops appear to stock.
Click to expand...

Supermarkets and health food stores sell "salt substitute" which in most all cases is KCl. Simply check the ingredient list. It may have a pinch of anti-caking agent added, but at least it would be food grade. And perhaps the anti-caking agent will enhance the cloudiness of the NEIPA. Just a thought.... And its sodium free!!!! But make sure it doesn't contain iodine (which must be listed as an ingredient).
 
melville said:
Where/how do you get the numbers for KCl? I don't see it as option in beersmith, b'run, etc.
Click to expand...

I don't use Beersmith or B'run Water unfortunately, I just have a spreadsheet that I hacked together years ago.

What I did was look up the molecular weights of K and Cl. We know that one molecule of KCl is one K and one Cl. K has a molecular weight of 39.0983 g/mol and Cl has a molecular weight of 35.453 g/mol, so each molecule of KCl is 47.56% Cl and 52.44% K by weight. To get ppm of each (K and Cl), you would apply the percentages, convert the grams to mg by multiplying by 1000 and divide through by the volume you add the KCl to in liters. The K ppm number would just stand by itself. The Cl number would need to be added to however much is already in your local water and the contributions from whatever else you add (CaCl2, NaCl, etc.).

That's just the way I do it though, there's definitely others.

This is the KCl I plan on using:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00028M02Q/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
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StinkyBeer said:
Interesting. What’s the thought behind avoiding NaCl?
Click to expand...

Speaking for myself only, I'm not really averse to NaCl. I guess KCl has a weaker flavor, and K is going to be around in finished beers anyway from the malt, so I'm a little more comfortable with trying KCl. But I am definitely interested in trying NaCl at some point. Never done either, so I'm going to do KCl first.

Also, the Alter Ego results were low in sodium and high in potassium. Not that that necessarily says that they are definitely using KCl, but I think it probably means they're not using NaCl.
 
Treehouse might not be using much Na but the one brewery that might have even better mouthfeel and overall perception of full softness is... granted there are so many factors that go into it but it’s the one thing that has stuck out as slightly different than other beer profiles I’ve seen. You have to add a ton of NA to taste it. Threshold is rather high.
 
So my KCl came today that I ordered. I tasted a pinch of it. It is quite salty by itself. More than I expected. Not as salty as your run of the mill NaCl though, IMO.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
I don't use Beersmith or B'run Water unfortunately, I just have a spreadsheet that I hacked together years ago.

What I did was look up the molecular weights of K and Cl. We know that one molecule of KCl is one K and one Cl. K has a molecular weight of 39.0983 g/mol and Cl has a molecular weight of 35.453 g/mol, so each molecule of KCl is 47.56% Cl and 52.44% K by weight. To get ppm of each (K and Cl), you would apply the percentages, convert the grams to mg by multiplying by 1000 and divide through by the volume you add the KCl to in liters. The K ppm number would just stand by itself. The Cl number would need to be added to however much is already in your local water and the contributions from whatever else you add (CaCl2, NaCl, etc.).

That's just the way I do it though, there's definitely others.

This is the KCl I plan on using:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00028M02Q/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Click to expand...
Ok so for the math dummies like myself, if I use 1/8 teaspoon of kosher salt in my mash and in my sparge how much KCl would I use in it's place?
 
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