Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[TheHumanTorch]

That could just be oxidation from the racking...

There's certainly a division of opinion on whether the extra processing and oxygen from the racking are worth the benefits, it's one of those areas where one person will swear blind to do it one way, and another will do it the other way.

I agree that racking is suboptimal in the case where the fermenter has a valve for dumping yeast and hops.

I've been split batching this summer into glass carboys with no bottom valve, and did a side by side to test hop character in batches that were transferred off of yeast into secondary (with hops) vs. dry hopped directly in primary.

My opinion was that the batch that was transferred off of yeast was less harsh and less grassy, displaying a character more true to smelling the hops in the bag.

Edit: This might be a little off topic, though

 

[isomerization]

I just started reading this amazing thread today! I'm "busy" at work and don't have time to keep reading. Did he ever figure out what the 'red square' was?

Yes we did figure it out, most likely Fermentis F-2, although CBC-1 was the only strain I could get my hands on. I am guessing they are the likely equivalents and the appearance of 3 Fermentis dry strains are what support this presumption.

 

[Premnasbiaculeatus]

Yes we did figure it out, most likely Fermentis F-2, although CBC-1 was the only strain I could get my hands on. I am guessing they are the likely equivalents and the appearance of 3 Fermentis dry strains are what support this presumption.

Thanks! I knew that already, as after work I went back and binge read all 70 some pages of this thread Amazing work! and a great read. The identity of that red square was killing me there for a couple pages. Reading this thread was pretty awesome. Your weeks / months of hard work really brightened my day. Good job sir! Good job!

 

[isomerization]

Thanks! I knew that already, as after work I went back and binge read all 70 some pages of this thread Amazing work! and a great read. The identity of that red square was killing me there for a couple pages. Reading this thread was pretty awesome. Your weeks / months of hard work really brightened my day. Good job sir! Good job!

Glad you enjoyed the thread! It certainly wouldn't be anywhere near as exciting without all the awesome HBT input. If only we could taste all these test batches together!

 

[Tijuanatovar]

Anyone have any results and updates to share regarding the yeast combos and recipe on this? Cheers ��

 

[crunkpirate]

Did a 2 gallon batch, inspired by @marshallb:

44% Rahr 2-Row
35% Weyermann Pale Ale
18% Carafoam
2% C-15
1% Biscuit
150:100 SO4:Cl
Mash began at 158, but dropped down to 153 after an hour.

Hopped with Warrior, Citra, Amarillo, Galaxy. 3.75 oz total

Day 1: 2.0g S04 + 0.5g WB06 pitched @78 (no hydrate/aerate) free fall to 72
Day 2: Drop temp to 62, pitch 2.0g S04 + 1.0g T58. Add 0.5 oz Citra (cryo)
Day 5: Raise temp to 74, add 0.5g Galaxy + 0.5g Amarillo
Day 9: Cold crash @45 for 1 day, then force carb

FG sample (1.016) was straight banana/spicy, I was so sad! Could this be in line with what people say about WB-06 munching to infinity? But it mostly faded after a few days in the keg, then the juicy fruit started to poke out. The body and finish was unlike any beer I've made using LA3 or Conan. Super soft and smooth, although a wee bit too Belgian IMO. I had it next to an Alter Ego, the color was similar, and the body and finish was similar, but my beer could use a little more hop flavor/aroma, and a little less esters. My buddies thought it was the best beer I've made (out of 7), moving forward I will continue to tweak the yeast ratio. Instead of 72/9/18 @5.5g I think I will go for 80/10/10 @5g, all at once, for a 2 gallon batch.

 

[robopp]

I brewed a Julius clone yesterday - we'll I made it up as I went. For yeast I used S04 (50%), T58 (25%) and WB06 (25%) all pitched at once and set the temp to 71F. I pitched the yeast around 5pm last night and it was ripping away within a couple of hours and this morning was going absolutely nuts! I swear when I open my fermentation chamber it smells like walking into the Treehouse brewery. I cannot wait to see how this turns out!

 

[TheHairyHop]

Naturally carbonating 3 gal of 1318 pale ale with CBC-1 and speisse. Will report in ~week

 

[TronJunior]

Some notes on the batch I brewed:

-Mouthfeel of the blended beers (t-58, London esb) is definitely on point right now. Creamy and smooth, also had a 1.5:1 Cl:SO4 ratio which might be helping. Starting a CBC-1 carb tomorrow so will post about that later.

-Not a fan of the Muntons Maris Otter I used as the base, but oh well.

-a little disappointed with overall hop aroma. Used a combo of motueka/ Moutere/ galaxy/ wai iti. Maybe need to use more american heavy hitters and leave these down under hops as accents next time.

-Not a big fan of London esb, s04 next time.

Trying a simcoe/chinook dipa tomorrow with similar water, s04, and a split batch fermented with wb-06 at a higher temp. Will report back on that as well.

Cheers

 

[duelerx]

Reading this thread is a fun ride!, my take on these findings, is as follows: S04 as workhouse, T-58 and WB-06 as support and CBC-1 for conditioning and mouthfeel.

-Are T-58 and WB-06 still important for the flavor profile?
-Thinking of conditioning, what about adding sugar and CBC-1 just points above reaching final gravity?, then carbonate on the fermentation vessel or transfer to a serving keg for conditioning.
-I have no problems substituting S04 to wy1318 or wy1469 for primary fermentation, thoughts?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Some notes on the batch I brewed:

-Mouthfeel of the blended beers (t-58, London esb) is definitely on point right now. Creamy and smooth, also had a 1.5:1 Cl:SO4 ratio which might be helping. Starting a CBC-1 carb tomorrow so will post about that later.

-Not a fan of the Muntons Maris Otter I used as the base, but oh well.

-a little disappointed with overall hop aroma. Used a combo of motueka/ Moutere/ galaxy/ wai iti. Maybe need to use more american heavy hitters and leave these down under hops as accents next time.

-Not a big fan of London esb, s04 next time.

Trying a simcoe/chinook dipa tomorrow with similar water, s04, and a split batch fermented with wb-06 at a higher temp. Will report back on that as well.

Cheers

1) that's interesting. I thought that my combo of S-04 and T-58 was too thin using a recipe I had previously been satisfied with

2) neither am I. it tastes like the crust of crappy white bread

3) the ones you used are fairly heavy hitting. what was your hop schedule? did you add any after fermentation was entirely complete?

4) why?

 

[Tijuanatovar]

Doing a split batch 2g ea. This weekend of citra/Cent/azacca
1.) SO4 and T-58
2.) SO4 and 1318
3.) SO4 and Conan

Bottle conditioning all with CBC1. Will report back afterwards on results.

 

[couchsending]

Doing a split batch 2g ea. This weekend of citra/Cent/azacca
1.) SO4 and T-58
2.) SO4 and 1318
3.) SO4 and Conan

Bottle conditioning all with CBC1. Will report back afterwards on results.

What temp? Temp is a huge variable.

 

[crunkpirate]

I wonder what it would be like to make a milkshake IPA using this yeast combo...

 

[TheHairyHop]

Naturally carbonating 3 gal of 1318 pale ale with CBC-1 and speisse. Will report in ~week

My beer finished very high at 1.028 ( for some reason my mash calc was waaayyy off). I set aside a liter of wort and stashed it in the fridge. Used 3/4 L and CBC-1 for natural carbonation in the keg. Less than a week later, it's satisfyingly carbed. Basically single hopped with El Do, I'm really digging this soft and thick beer thing. No flavor hints of a stout, but definitely has the trends going on in it. Very satisfied with the results. Will carb this way again

 

[TheHairyHop]

on another note, 5% honey malt is too much, at least in the recipe that I used

 

[Dog House Brew]

on another note, 5% honey malt is too much, at least in the recipe that I used

My regular IPA has honey in it. I'm down to 2% and it is perfect. Strong stuff even in low percentages.

 

[duelerx]

My beer finished very high at 1.028 ( for some reason my mash calc was waaayyy off). I set aside a liter of wort and stashed it in the fridge. Used 3/4 L and CBC-1 for natural carbonation in the keg. Less than a week later, it's satisfyingly carbed. Basically single hopped with El Do, I'm really digging this soft and thick beer thing. No flavor hints of a stout, but definitely has the trends going on in it. Very satisfied with the results. Will carb this way again

Beautiful color, do you think natural carbonation with CBC-1 makes a difference?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Beautiful color, do you think natural carbonation with CBC-1 makes a difference?

hmm. It's hard to say. I honestly think that 1318 does more for carbonation and mouthfeel than naturally carbonating, but I will say that it is easy enough that I will continue to do so. I don't see why I wouldn't, and it jives well with my <24 hour last addition of dry hops, by scrubbing any added oxygen

 

[Tommyd200]

This thread has been great... I've been attempting to grow colonies from Treehouse on multiple occasions and have failed. Here's issues that I've encountered:
Attempt 1) Multiple starters made from Julius dregs. Pitched into 5 gallons of 1.060 wort. Result: Nasty sulfur/rotten egg smell.
Attempt 2) Multiple starters made from Haze dregs. Pitched into 2.5 gallons of 1.060 wort. Same result as #1
Attempt 3) Multiple starters made from Julius. Pitched into 1 gallon of 1.074 wort. Result: No nasty smell, fermentation stopped at 1.025
Attempt 4) Multiple starters made from Alter Ego. Pitched into 1 gallon of 1.072 wort. Result: No nasty smell, fermentation stopped at 1.023.

With attempt 4, I also did 2 gallons with a yeast blend (90% US-04, 7% WB-06, 3% T-58). I will report how the yeast blend did when primary is completed in the next few days.

 

[centrical]

hmm. It's hard to say. I honestly think that 1318 does more for carbonation and mouthfeel than naturally carbonating, but I will say that it is easy enough that I will continue to do so. I don't see why I wouldn't, and it jives well with my <24 hour last addition of dry hops, by scrubbing any added oxygen

What *is* your dryhop schedule?

And if you don;t mind me asking, what's your fermentation temps/schedule?

 

[TheHairyHop]

What *is* your dryhop schedule?

And if you don;t mind me asking, what's your fermentation temps/schedule?

For 3 gallons, I do about 2 Oz or less in whirlpool, 2 Oz at peak krausen (day 2 or so) and 2 more 24 hours before kegging. That's usually all within a week. I don't control fermentation temps. Tbh, 1318 seems pretty indifferent to that

 

[Northern_Brewer]

-Are T-58 and WB-06 still important for the flavor profile?

-I have no problems substituting S04 to wy1318 or wy1469 for primary fermentation, thoughts?

Kinda the idea is either you have a single yeast that produces a fair amount of esters (like most British yeasts) or you have a mix with a neutral one doing the heavy lifting (S-04) and then "spice" it with small amounts of Belgiany yeasts producing lots of esters. Have a British yeast AND the Belgian yeasts MAY be too much of a good thing.

Having said that, I'm always surprised that 1469 West Yorkshire doesn't get mentioned more in the context of NEIPAs - I've not brewed with it myself but it sounds very similar to Conan. Certainly Conan sounds more like a Burton/Yorkshire yeast than a London one.

I'll throw this out there - is anyone using Bravo as a "helper hop" in the whirlpool? It doesn't quite work on its own but it's a better source of geraniol than even Citra (and half the price!), which is one of the main substrates for biotransformation.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Aside from the obvious advantages of being in the UK, like a distinct lack of hurricanes and a drinking age of 18, it's also easy to pick up F-2 yeast. In fact I'll be getting some in my next order for another little project I'm working on.

Unfortunately @isomerization no longer has the facilities to do DNA fingerprinting, but if there's anyone out there who can and wants some F-2 to compare with the Tree House strains, DM me.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Kinda the idea is either you have a single yeast that produces a fair amount of esters (like most British yeasts) or you have a mix with a neutral one doing the heavy lifting (S-04) and then "spice" it with small amounts of Belgiany yeasts producing lots of esters. Have a British yeast AND the Belgian yeasts MAY be too much of a good thing.

Having said that, I'm always surprised that 1469 West Yorkshire doesn't get mentioned more in the context of NEIPAs - I've not brewed with it myself but it sounds very similar to Conan. Certainly Conan sounds more like a Burton/Yorkshire yeast than a London one.

I'll throw this out there - is anyone using Bravo as a "helper hop" in the whirlpool? It doesn't quite work on its own but it's a better source of geraniol than even Citra (and half the price!), which is one of the main substrates for biotransformation.

I use both Bravo and Chinook for padding in every stage except for the final dry hop

 

[skibb]

I'll throw this out there - is anyone using Bravo as a "helper hop" in the whirlpool? It doesn't quite work on its own but it's a better source of geraniol than even Citra (and half the price!), which is one of the main substrates for biotransformation.

Just curious, where you got this info from?

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

Kinda the idea is either you have a single yeast that produces a fair amount of esters (like most British yeasts) or you have a mix with a neutral one doing the heavy lifting (S-04) and then "spice" it with small amounts of Belgiany yeasts producing lots of esters. Have a British yeast AND the Belgian yeasts MAY be too much of a good thing.

Having said that, I'm always surprised that 1469 West Yorkshire doesn't get mentioned more in the context of NEIPAs - I've not brewed with it myself but it sounds very similar to Conan. Certainly Conan sounds more like a Burton/Yorkshire yeast than a London one.

I'll throw this out there - is anyone using Bravo as a "helper hop" in the whirlpool? It doesn't quite work on its own but it's a better source of geraniol than even Citra (and half the price!), which is one of the main substrates for biotransformation.

One of my favorite NEIPA hop combos is Bravo+Citra+Equinox (Ekuanot). Pretty much at a 1:1:1 ratio starting with 15min left in the boil throughout the rest of the brew process.

I have gotten more rave reviews from all my NEIPA-loving friends for batches made with this combo than any other hop combo I've tried.

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

This thread has been great... I've been attempting to grow colonies from Treehouse on multiple occasions and have failed. Here's issues that I've encountered:
Attempt 1) Multiple starters made from Julius dregs. Pitched into 5 gallons of 1.060 wort. Result: Nasty sulfur/rotten egg smell.
Attempt 2) Multiple starters made from Haze dregs. Pitched into 2.5 gallons of 1.060 wort. Same result as #1
Attempt 3) Multiple starters made from Julius. Pitched into 1 gallon of 1.074 wort. Result: No nasty smell, fermentation stopped at 1.025
Attempt 4) Multiple starters made from Alter Ego. Pitched into 1 gallon of 1.072 wort. Result: No nasty smell, fermentation stopped at 1.023.

With attempt 4, I also did 2 gallons with a yeast blend (90% US-04, 7% WB-06, 3% T-58). I will report how the yeast blend did when primary is completed in the next few days.

Based on info in this thread, it's highly likely that your dreg-based batch ferment are mainly CBC-1 (or F-2) driven. Killer yeast, doesn't ferment complex sugars, so it would leave a high FG. My guess is your Yeast blend will come out completely different...in a good way. Looking forward to hearing about it.

BTW, I have a detailed report on my split batches coming. I wanted to get some nice side-by-side pictures taken to go with the written descriptions of the beers. It should lend some interesting data to the ongoing experiments/discussions.

[building the drama]

 

[centrical]

Having said that, I'm always surprised that 1469 West Yorkshire doesn't get mentioned more in the context of NEIPAs - I've not brewed with it myself but it sounds very similar to Conan. Certainly Conan sounds more like a Burton/Yorkshire yeast than a London one.

I have tried Yorkshire - I split batched it and did 1318 in one, yorkshire in the other. I didn't care for it too much honestly. the 1318 was way better.

 

[couchsending]

Did three or four batches a while back with some Bravo in WP and dry hop based on the biotransformation oil article and it's geraniol content. I thought it also contributed a fairly strong floral type element to the beer, a geranium/rose type of floral component.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Did three or four batches a while back with some Bravo in WP and dry hop based on the biotransformation oil article and it's geraniol content. I thought it also contributed a fairly strong floral type element to the beer, a geranium/rose type of floral component.

I get crazy amounts of flower and lemon oil from high oil content hops going in before fermentation. My 100% Chinook IPA had barely a hint of pine

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Just curious, where you got this info from?

See this paper from Sapporo.

Just as we think of certain hop varieties as being specialist "bittering" hops that get used at a certain time of the brew to provide certain specific chemicals (alpha acids in that case) that will be transformed into useful flavours in the beer, I think we need to start thinking of Bravo as a "geranioling" hop that gets added at the start of the cool stage to get geraniol into the wort that the yeast will turn into a complex mix of other terpene alcohols like &#946;-citronellol and linalool.

That would explain people's variable results with it - if you dry hop late, you'll gets lots of untransformed geraniol, which as the name suggests is floral, whereas get it to the yeast whilst they're still active and they'll turn it into a tasty mix of citrussy compounds.

I must admit, I've found Bravo to be a bit one-dimensional as a single-hop beer, but I think it's quite interesting specifically as a whirlpool/pitching hop
and it's going to be a focus of my NEIPA experiments that I'm planning for when the new season hops arrive. Last night I brewed a "leftovers" best bitter, using up all the various open bags of hops and speciality grains and a bag of 2015 Bramling Cross I found at the bottom of the freezer, so I'm ready for the new season!

@overthebarsbrewing - so are you using that ECB mix the same 1:1:1 at all stages, or are you loading the Bravo into the whirlpool and less at other stages? Look forward to your report - I do love a split batch....

@centrical Interesting about 1469 - what didn't you like about it? It's one I want to play with for a couple of styles, both NEIPA and more traditional English ones.

 

[skibb]

@Northern_Brewer - awesome thanks!

 

[bbohanon]

Man what a read this thread has been..There have been many a TH/HF/HT chase-thread but this one had alot of folks putting their noggins to work!

For me, the NEIPA chase ended a while back..I have a house recipe that is as NEIPA as it gets and if I stack mine up with either HT or HF (I have not had anything from TH yet so I cannot speak to their beers), mine wins every time. I have even conducted my own blind triangle tests with these beers and mine with fellow brewers and others and they are shocked when mine is picked every time over the big boys.

The secret for me has been to use 1318 (nice big decanted starter) and to use Hopshots only for the boil bitterness and whirlpool any other hop additions at 180 for about 30-45 mins for any other hot side hop additions. I also start primary fermentation at 62 deg and ramp it up to 70 over the course of 5 days of PFerm so it ends fermentation at 70deg.

I also dry hop very liberally for the aroma I want and I also keg carb my DIPAs with a DIY spunding valve and it comes out like a super soft citrus grapefruit bomb every time. At this time, I only force carb my beers if I absolutely have to as naturally carbing in a keg does help with oxygen removal and gives the beer a much softer taste. I only hook up the kegs to the CO2 when I am moving to bottle or serving.

My NEIPA has the look, head, aroma and juicy mouth feel/taste without any harsh hop bite/bitterness that everyone that drinks it comments highly on.

Just some hints/advice on my successes with this journey as I spend over a year and a half chasing this beast and brewing batch after batch (after many more batches) while reading these types of threads and what ended up working for what I was looking for.

Someone else up the chain mentioned 1450 strain for mouthfeel which I use for my stouts and porters and man what great strain that is..if you want that HF silky mouthfeel that their porters and stouts have, Dennys 50 is a great place to get that profile.


Thanks to all for the awesome testing info on this thread and you guys are what makes this community so great for us all!

 

[bbohanon]

One other note on these beers....use the freshest hops you can find for these DIPAs..I cannot stress this enough.

I have made my house NEIPA with hops I was not sure how old they were and then exactly the same way with some ultra fresh Yakima Farms hops and the hop "pop" and brightness was night and day difference on the impact of the beer.
I actually stopped purchasing hops from my LHBS due to them not being able to tell me how fresh their hops in the tubs were and their lackluster storage of them.

Bottom line, if you dont know how old the hops are you are getting is or how they have been handled up to packaging and them getting dumped into your beer, don't use them in this style of beer (or honestly in any beer).
Cheesy hops will equal a sub par beer that you may be attempting to fix with yeast/other things when the problem was the hop freshness to begin with!

 

[duelerx]

Man what a read this thread has been..There have been many a TH/HF/HT chase-thread but this one had alot of folks putting their noggins to work!

For me, the NEIPA chase ended a while back..I have a house recipe that is as NEIPA as it gets and if I stack mine up with either HT or HF (I have not had anything from TH yet so I cannot speak to their beers), mine wins every time. I have even conducted my own blind triangle tests with these beers and mine with fellow brewers and others and they are shocked when mine is picked every time over the big boys.

The secret for me has been to use 1318 (nice big decanted starter) and to use Hopshots only for the boil bitterness and whirlpool any other hop additions at 180 for about 30-45 mins for any other hot side hop additions. I also start primary fermentation at 62 deg and ramp it up to 70 over the course of 5 days of PFerm so it ends fermentation at 70deg.

I also dry hop very liberally for the aroma I want and I also keg carb my DIPAs with a DIY spunding valve and it comes out like a super soft citrus grapefruit bomb every time. At this time, I only force carb my beers if I absolutely have to as naturally carbing in a keg does help with oxygen removal and gives the beer a much softer taste. I only hook up the kegs to the CO2 when I am moving to bottle or serving.

My NEIPA has the look, head, aroma and juicy mouth feel/taste without any harsh hop bite/bitterness that everyone that drinks it comments highly on.

Just some hints/advice on my successes with this journey as I spend over a year and a half chasing this beast and brewing batch after batch (after many more batches) while reading these types of threads and what ended up working for what I was looking for.

Someone else up the chain mentioned 1450 strain for mouthfeel which I use for my stouts and porters and man what great strain that is..if you want that HF silky mouthfeel that their porters and stouts have, Dennys 50 is a great place to get that profile.


Thanks to all for the awesome testing info on this thread and you guys are what makes this community so great for us all!

I'm also fermenting my first NEIPA using 1318 as you described, next iterations i would use the dry yeast combos as advised in this thread for comparing side by side.

How do you conduct your spunding procedure?, this is also one of the things i would like to experiment also with CBC-1 and forced carb.

 

[SanPancho]

random aside- if anyone wants F2 let me know. cant really vacuum seal it for you, but USPS mail shouldnt take more than 2-3 days coast to coast, use it quickly and should be fine.

 

[centrical]

The secret for me has been to use 1318 (nice big decanted starter) and to use Hopshots only for the boil bitterness and whirlpool any other hop additions at 180 for about 30-45 mins for any other hot side hop additions. I also start primary fermentation at 62 deg and ramp it up to 70 over the course of 5 days of PFerm so it ends fermentation at 70deg.

Hey bbohanon,

After fermentation ends at 70f after 5 days, can you tell me what then? Do you ramp the temp back down over time? when do you dry hop, and at what temp? I'm glad you have tamed 1318! Thanks!

 

[couchsending]

I still find it interesting that people think 1318 is critical to making a "NEIPA" cause Kimmich once suggested it would be good and people thought that it was the yeast HF used. Not one noteworthy brewery from
New England uses this yeast to make these beers....although there are others across the country that do use this yeast, albeit to make nice hoppy beers that are nice and clear.

 

[TheHairyHop]

None of my 1318 drop clear. Not even after a month