Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[couchsending]

Is everyone convinced there is a DH addition going on during primary fermentation?

I understand that there is two schools of thought. DH with yeast active not only for Biotransformation but also for o2 scrubbing but there is also the opposite school of thought that the yeast will pull oils when floccing so drop temps to say 60 or so to promote flocculation as much as possible then DH.

If primary is done with s-04/T-58 and there is some residual sugar left. You could cool to 60, pull as much yeast as possible then add WB-06 with DH addition for O2 scrubbing and since WB-06 pretty much doesn't flocc you get more Hop oils in suspension for better aroma and maybe a little Bio. Just let it free rise back up to 66 or so.

Read some interesting info on probrewer about DH during active fermentation can cause the gravity to drop the last few points much slower than normal.

 

[NJGeorge]

Is everyone convinced there is a DH addition going on during primary fermentation?

I understand that there is two schools of thought. DH with yeast active not only for Biotransformation but also for o2 scrubbing but there is also the opposite school of thought that the yeast will pull oils when floccing so drop temps to say 60 or so to promote flocculation as much as possible then DH.

If primary is done with s-04/T-58 and there is some residual sugar left. You could cool to 60, pull as much yeast as possible then add WB-06 with DH addition for O2 scrubbing and since WB-06 pretty much doesn't flocc you get more Hop oils in suspension for better aroma and maybe a little Bio. Just let it free rise back up to 66 or so.

Read some interesting info on probrewer about DH during active fermentation can cause the gravity to drop the last few points much slower than normal.

Maybe they just do one big dry hop or both. I think Nates hoppy things recipe has two doses. I think a lot of the brewery's by me like Other Half, Magnify etc. definitely double dry hop during and after fermentation. I have also been dry hopping 2-3 days into fermentation with good results and then another dose at day 4-5.

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

Is everyone convinced there is a DH addition going on during primary fermentation?

I understand that there is two schools of thought. DH with yeast active not only for Biotransformation but also for o2 scrubbing but there is also the opposite school of thought that the yeast will pull oils when floccing so drop temps to say 60 or so to promote flocculation as much as possible then DH.

If primary is done with s-04/T-58 and there is some residual sugar left. You could cool to 60, pull as much yeast as possible then add WB-06 with DH addition for O2 scrubbing and since WB-06 pretty much doesn't flocc you get more Hop oils in suspension for better aroma and maybe a little Bio. Just let it free rise back up to 66 or so.

Read some interesting info on probrewer about DH during active fermentation can cause the gravity to drop the last few points much slower than normal.

I'd have to guess that most are DH'ing during primary if only for the reason that it shortens time for grain-to-glass versus adding at the end of fermentation. All the other potential benefits are icing on the cake.

What you described trying w/ S-04/T-58 followed by WB-06 is very close to what I've got going on w/ my current batch. Only difference is I did not/could not drop temp as I don't have my fermentation chamber built yet.

Interesting observations about the slower fermentation at the end w/ DH'ing as I expected more drop over 4 days with WB-06 than I saw (only went from 1.020 to 1.018).

 

[skibb]

I regularly dry hop during fermentation, at around 1.020-1.024 (for the first addition which is usually .8-1.2 lb/bbl). I have not seen my fermentation lag much more than a day or so longer. And for me - dry hopping during active fermentation is essential is getting the type of haze/sheen that NE IPAs have.

An example:

This is my NE style IPA - harvested yeast at 1.022 and dry hopped later that afternoon. I also upped my set point to 70 (from 66) for a D rest. This was about 4 days into fermentation (would usually be 3 but this was first gen of rehydrated s-04 so it lagged a bit). I dry hopped it with 1 lb/bbl initially then 2 lb/bbl when the gravity was 1.016 (the next day). Capped the fermenter and let the fermentation finish (2 days later at 1.014).

 

[jakturner]

Hi all, I might of missed it but was Hill Farmstead dregs ever tested? Though I read many pages back some one was sending out a growler to be tested?

 

[stonebrewer]

I regularly dry hop during fermentation, at around 1.020-1.024 (for the first addition which is usually .8-1.2 lb/bbl).

Do you brew at Ethereal?

 

[JohnConnor]

Have you looked at Ringworm or Northwest Ale yeast? Both give fruity descriptors.

 

[skibb]

@stonebrewer - yes it is my brewery opened it with a bud almost 3 years ago.

I must say I'm pretty excited someone in MD has heard of us!

 

[chrilr]

I also found this from Imperial:

B56 Rustic
This unique yeast can be used in your saison, farmhouse ale, or other Belgian styles where high ester levels are important. Rustic typically produces a lot of bubblegum and juicy aromas that compliment complex maltiness.

Interesting they call out bubblegum and juicy from a Belgian strain. I don't necessarily get bubblegum out of their beers but I know people who do. Only problem is that I can't seem to find a replacement from other companies.

This is supposed to be the blaugies saison strain. Wyeast used to put it out as a pc but have not put it out in 2 years.
I have been using the rustic strain in various saisons the last year and have a slurry hanging around.
I personally don't see how it would do in a sort of this makeup. Then again, I am not a fan of Belgian ipa's

 

[chrilr]

I also found this from Imperial:

B56 Rustic
This unique yeast can be used in your saison, farmhouse ale, or other Belgian styles where high ester levels are important. Rustic typically produces a lot of bubblegum and juicy aromas that compliment complex maltiness.

Interesting they call out bubblegum and juicy from a Belgian strain. I don't necessarily get bubblegum out of their beers but I know people who do. Only problem is that I can't seem to find a replacement from other companies.

This is supposed to be the blaugies saison strain. Wyeast used to put it out as a pc but have not put it out in 2 years.
I have been using the rustic strain in various saisons the last year and have a slurry hanging around.
I personally don't see how it would do in a sort of this makeup. Then again, I am not a fan of Belgian ipa's

 

[couchsending]

Hi all, I might of missed it but was Hill Farmstead dregs ever tested? Though I read many pages back some one was sending out a growler to be tested?

Was tested. Didn't match anything that had been tested yet. Closest thing was something Belgian I believe. Just built up a starter with it this week. As has been stated might be wlp510 which is a very clean Belgian strain. They might just overpitch and ferment cool to keep it as clean as possible? Interested to see what the beer I brew with it turns out like.

 

[jakturner]

Was tested. Didn't match anything that had been tested yet. Closest thing was something Belgian I believe. Just built up a starter with it this week. As has been stated might be wlp510 which is a very clean Belgian strain. They might just overpitch and ferment cool to keep it as clean as possible? Interested to see what the beer I brew with it turns out like.

Thanks!
A little off topic but could anyone out there school me on using a spunding valve with fermentation and natural carbonation? I ferment in corny kegs and would like to give it a try and see if there's an improvement on my NEIPAs.

 

[Jwin]

Thanks!
A little off topic but could anyone out there school me on using a spunding valve with fermentation and natural carbonation? I ferment in corny kegs and would like to give it a try and see if there's an improvement on my NEIPAs.

See the "interesting German brewing PDF" thread
Or visit ********************
Though not specific to only lodo brewing, it is an integral part of it

 

[jakturner]

See the "interesting German brewing PDF" thread
Or visit ********************
Though not specific to only lodo brewing, it is an integral part of it

Thanks!
I'll have to take a closer look at that, I skimmed through it a while back when it popped up on a different thread. I remember kind of hitting a wall when trying to envision using it with a double dry hopped beer.
I was kind of hoping to get some personal experience and techniques on how much pressure to apply to ale yeasts during fermentation, dry hopping, and natural carbonating.

 

[lilbova3]

Was tested. Didn't match anything that had been tested yet. Closest thing was something Belgian I believe. Just built up a starter with it this week. As has been stated might be wlp510 which is a very clean Belgian strain. They might just overpitch and ferment cool to keep it as clean as possible? Interested to see what the beer I brew with it turns out like.

I had a buddy that was listening to a podcast or something and he said that Shaun Hill said the pitch rates recommended online are incorrect. From context and the sound of Hill's voice, my buddy believed that he was suggesting the calculators don't recommend pitching enough yeast. While Hill did not say that, it's a guess that's what he was getting at.

So the idea of a big overpitch and fermenting cool would be something to try with a Belgian yeast.

A brewer friend of mine knows of a newer brewery in NC using a Belgian strain yet you get no Belgian traits in the finished beer.

 

[NJGeorge]

I was able to harvest some yeast from the bottom of a Monkish can. Anyone want to test it? @isomerization @couchsending

 

[Jwin]

Thanks!
I'll have to take a closer look at that, I skimmed through it a while back when it popped up on a different thread. I remember kind of hitting a wall when trying to envision using it with a double dry hopped beer.
I was kind of hoping to get some personal experience and techniques on how much pressure to apply to ale yeasts during fermentation, dry hopping, and natural carbonating.

*Disclaimer* I haven't done it personally, but it's on the list and I've read a good bit on it.
1, make sure you don't have any leaks before you start. maybe throw it on a empty keg with some pressure for a week and then check the pressure.
There seem to be 2 acceptable approaches. You can ferment under lower pressure, then increase the pressure as primary completes. This is thought to keep ester production down, which could be beneficial or detrimental, depending on your goal.
The other thought is to ferment as normal until you are a few points shy of FG, then add speise or priming solution, wait a bit for fermentation to start back up, and transfer to a purged keg with spunding valve set to appropriate pressure. Note, the pressure will be higher than serving pressure since you are still are fermentation temps.
Having a shortened liquid dip tube in the spunding keg can be beneficial as well, especially if you plan to serve out of that keg.
Afaik, there's no need or benefit(aside from potentially slightly shorter fermentation times) from fermenting entirely under pressure unless you are trying to keep esters at a minimum.

 

[couchsending]

I had a buddy that was listening to a podcast or something and he said that Shaun Hill said the pitch rates recommended online are incorrect. From context and the sound of Hill's voice, my buddy believed that he was suggesting the calculators don't recommend pitching enough yeast. While Hill did not say that, it's a guess that's what he was getting at.

So the idea of a big overpitch and fermenting cool would be something to try with a Belgian yeast.

A brewer friend of mine knows of a newer brewery in NC using a Belgian strain yet you get no Belgian traits in the finished beer.

yeah I really have no idea. Pitch rates seem to be completely across the board depending on yeast and what you want to accomplish with said yeast. Heck in Mitch Steele's IPA book Noonan recommends pitching "conan" at 15 million cells/ml for a 14.5 plato beer and on the next page Kimmich recommends pitching Conan at a rate of 6-7 million cells/ml for a 17.5 plato beer???? That's about a 50% under pitch if you go by the brewer's friend calculator recommended by Kimmich and a bit of an overpitch recommended by Noonan (both for a black IPA). Then there's the whole issue about cell count per gram in dried yeast that is all over the board. Studies have shown that s04 has only 8 billion cells per gram yet T-58 can have 18 billion cells??? Which is awesome.

There are a couple of Belgian Ale strains that leave little "Belgian" character which is I guess what most Pale or "Blonde' or whatever they call them in Belgium actually taste like, very little "Belgian" character and pretty clean. Haven't used WLP510 but from the descriptions that's what it sounds like it produces. Wyeast has a bunch of options both normal in line and platinum.

 

[TronJunior]

Hey all, great job on the R&D! First time posting in this thread. I'm not sure if there's a consensus yet on the best way to go about things but here's what I'm up to:

8/22:
Made 8 barrels of IPA and split into two tanks, 7 barrels fermented with London ESB pitched at 75* for 12 hours then brought down to 66*. 1 barrel pitched T-58 @ 77*. As of 8/25 both are approaching terminal gravity with the London ESB @ 4.1p and T-58 @ 3.8. I'm hoping both finish around 3.5. So far the mouthfeel on the T-58 is particularly thick, creamy and smooth and I'm getting a lot more fruit/bubblegum esters as opposed to the spicy/clove I've gotten from it at lower temps. The Londson ESB batch is also feeling pretty great, although I'm getting sort of a back of the throat stinging sensation that I attribute to too many whirlpool hop particles making it through my filter. Combine them at the 7:1 ratio and I'm thinking I'll have a real banger on my hands!

My plan is to let them both ferment mostly out and not do any mid-fermentation dry hopping. On Monday both fermentations should pretty much completed where I'll drop yeast and add dry hops to each and let them ferment their last tenth of a point or so which should hopefully counteract any oxygen ingress from the dry hopping. After four or five days I'll drop the hops, blend the two tanks in a bright tank after pitching CBC-1 with sugar in the 7 barrel, letting the pressure build to around 27 psi before crashing and adjust head pressure to hit exact co2 volumes needed accordingly. I'm hoping the CBC-1 will kill off the T-58 and prevent it from getting to the maltotriose the London ESB left behind, as well as contributing to the overall mouthfeel. This seems to sort of fit better in the 18-21 production time Nate has stated for Julius in the past. Both yeasts(especially London ESB) seem to be quick fermenters and with a co pitch and one primary fermentation dry hopping, I think the turn around could be a week sooner depending on how long CBC-1 takes to do it's work. Mostly speculation on that though.

I will let you know my results at the end of next week! Let me know what you think. Sorry for the formatting and stream of consciousness, I'm writing on my phone. Cheers!

 

[TheHairyHop]

I would just like to say that because of this thread and others like it, I have basically forgotten how to brew a beer that isn't a simple malt bill with about 1.5 oz/gal of dry hops. I saw someone post about an ale without any dry hops, and I quite literally said out loud, "what the f&$%k is this?"

 

[SanPancho]

Pitching a blend of dry yeast, by weight, is very simple from a commercial brewery perspective. There is a lot more work involved with successfully harvesting, storing, cleaning, and (re)pitching liquid yeast for multiple generations. One other benefit of dry yeast is that it is much less expensive than liquid. Affordability makes it feasible to pitch a fresh quantity of dry yeast each batch.

It's completely possible that they are using a single strain, but it's worth investigating co-pitching, considering the ease.

Its not that much more expensive. If you use that strain often, a dozen uses from liquid is way cheaper than 12 bricks of dry.

But you cant keep a mixed liquid culture at same ratio, which is probably more pertinent here.

 

[StinkyBeer]

I'm convinced Nate would be pitching a specific ratio for each beer from the start and fermenting cool...fiddling with the ratios for each beer.

My experience so far tells me to be wary of WB-06 with regards to 'Belgian' notes and high attenuation. It keeps on munching.

Current ratio that seems to be working well is 90/5/5 at 66.

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

Hey all, great job on the R&D! First time posting in this thread. I'm not sure if there's a consensus yet on the best way to go about things but here's what I'm up to:

8/22:
Made 8 barrels of IPA and split into two tanks, 7 barrels fermented with London ESB pitched at 75* for 12 hours then brought down to 66*. 1 barrel pitched T-58 @ 77*. As of 8/25 both are approaching terminal gravity with the London ESB @ 4.1p and T-58 @ 3.8. I'm hoping both finish around 3.5. So far the mouthfeel on the T-58 is particularly thick, creamy and smooth and I'm getting a lot more fruit/bubblegum esters as opposed to the spicy/clove I've gotten from it at lower temps. The Londson ESB batch is also feeling pretty great, although I'm getting sort of a back of the throat stinging sensation that I attribute to too many whirlpool hop particles making it through my filter. Combine them at the 7:1 ratio and I'm thinking I'll have a real banger on my hands!

My plan is to let them both ferment mostly out and not do any mid-fermentation dry hopping. On Monday both fermentations should pretty much completed where I'll drop yeast and add dry hops to each and let them ferment their last tenth of a point or so which should hopefully counteract any oxygen ingress from the dry hopping. After four or five days I'll drop the hops, blend the two tanks in a bright tank after pitching CBC-1 with sugar in the 7 barrel, letting the pressure build to around 27 psi before crashing and adjust head pressure to hit exact co2 volumes needed accordingly. I'm hoping the CBC-1 will kill off the T-58 and prevent it from getting to the maltotriose the London ESB left behind, as well as contributing to the overall mouthfeel. This seems to sort of fit better in the 18-21 production time Nate has stated for Julius in the past. Both yeasts(especially London ESB) seem to be quick fermenters and with a co pitch and one primary fermentation dry hopping, I think the turn around could be a week sooner depending on how long CBC-1 takes to do it's work. Mostly speculation on that though.

I will let you know my results at the end of next week! Let me know what you think. Sorry for the formatting and stream of consciousness, I'm writing on my phone. Cheers!

@tronjunior - sounds like a great experimental batch so far! Just a quick FYI - according to Fermentis spec sheet on T-58, it should not appreciably ferment maltotriose...

 

[skibb]

Yeah T-58, in my experience (which is probably 10 or so commercial brews) is NOT a good attenuator. I have to mash in the mid 140s to get my beers to dry out to any significant degree.

 

[couchsending]

I went back and read through a few pages but not all of them so forgive me if I'm wrong but Wb-06 didn't show up
In Alter Ego or Julius correct? Just the dregs from Doppleganger and Green? Could they just be using WB-06 to dry it out instead of using sugar?

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

I went back and read through a few pages but not all of them so forgive me if I'm wrong but Wb-06 didn't show up
In Alter Ego or Julius correct? Just the dregs from Doppleganger and Green? Could they just be using WB-06 to dry it out instead of using sugar?

Here's what I had put into my evolving "notes" document about the thread:

Julius: 7 S-04, 3 CBC-1, 2 T-58, 0 WB-06
Doppleganger: 5 CBC-1, 2 S-04, 2 WB-06, 1 T-58
Alter Ego: 7 S-04, 2 CBC-1, 1 T-58, 1 WB-06
Green: 5 CBC-1, 2 WB-06, 1 S-04, 0 T-58

***Given the small sample size the "0" values don't 100% support/refute whether those yeasts are/are not in those beers...

 

[TheHairyHop]

Yea, those are all within perfectly normal error margins. I would guess that the blend is the same for all of those beers. I would still like to see a sampling of a "pure" S-04 culture

 

[isomerization]

I went back and read through a few pages but not all of them so forgive me if I'm wrong but Wb-06 didn't show up
In Alter Ego or Julius correct? Just the dregs from Doppleganger and Green? Could they just be using WB-06 to dry it out instead of using sugar?

I would also like to remind everyone that each of those dregs were collected in a different manner, with several before I even knew that there might be multiple strains. This is important because I know a couple were allowed to grow over several days, which is certainly going to skew the results towards CBC-1.

I hint the standing hypotheses from the group are likely spot on: 1) s-04 is major player, 2) t-58 and wb-06 play support and 3) CBC-1 is for conditioning.

I will also second a vote towards subtle changes in ratios and ferm temp between each batch, depending on the desired flavor profiles.

 

[Sbe2]

My S-04 NEIPA was a huge hit at my future brother in laws bachelor party. 5 gallons gone in one night. So glad I used it, grain to glass in 14 days.

 

[TheHairyHop]

My S-04 NEIPA was a huge hit at my future brother in laws bachelor party. 5 gallons gone in one night. So glad I used it, grain to glass in 14 days.

What was your hop schedule? I find that mine really need at least that time to mellow out

 

[NJGeorge]

My S-04 NEIPA was a huge hit at my future brother in laws bachelor party. 5 gallons gone in one night. So glad I used it, grain to glass in 14 days.

Sounds like a good time! What was your pitch temp and fermentation temp?

 

[skibb]

The hop burn is real. With the high amounts of dry hops in these beers, they can be a bit harsh when fresh. I think my hoppy offerings hit their stride 2 weeks in.

 

[TheHumanTorch]

The hop burn is real. With the high amounts of dry hops in these beers, they can be a bit harsh when fresh. I think my hoppy offerings hit their stride 2 weeks in.

I find that dropping out as much yeast as possible before dry hopping and then dropping out as much hop material as possible (about 2 days after dry hop) will significantly reduce the hop burn/harshness. If you use a vessel without a valve on the bottom, that would entail transferring to secondary after the yeast is done fermenting. Throw the hops in the empty vessel, purge it, transfer on top.

 

[couchsending]

The hop burn is real. With the high amounts of dry hops in these beers, they can be a bit harsh when fresh. I think my hoppy offerings hit their stride 2 weeks in.

You can also use finings at a lower level than suggested. It'll pull a lot of the "burn" without pulling the good stuff. The burn going away is just that stuff falling out of solution.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I ferment in corny kegs, so my best line of defense is a dip tube screen and shortening the tube itself. I think that I may get a finer screen than the one Scott Janish recommends, because I've had particle issues

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I find that dropping out as much yeast as possible before dry hopping and then dropping out as much hop material as possible (about 2 days after dry hop) will significantly reduce the hop burn/harshness.

That could just be oxidation from the racking...

There's certainly a division of opinion on whether the extra processing and oxygen from the racking are worth the benefits, it's one of those areas where one person will swear blind to do it one way, and another will do it the other way.

 

[Sbe2]

What was your hop schedule? I find that mine really need at least that time to mellow out

FWH 7g columbus

FO 28g Galaxy, 28g Mosaic, 28g Citra

WP (30 Min) 28g Galaxy, 28g Mosaic, 28g Citra

60 hrs post pitch 56g Galaxy, 56g Mosaic, 56g Citra


My plan was to brew 3 weeks before the party: Keg after 2 weeks of fermenting and hold it in the keg for another week. But, due to a series of unfortunate events, I brewed 2 weeks before the party: kegged after 11 days, force carbed for 3 days before the party. Had more bitterness than I was going for, but that was prolly due to some hop particles still in suspension. Still a juice bomb!

 

[Premnasbiaculeatus]

I just started reading this amazing thread today! I'm "busy" at work and don't have time to keep reading. Did he ever figure out what the 'red square' was?

 

[Sbe2]

Sounds like a good time! What was your pitch temp and fermentation temp?

Pitch temp was 64f, let it rise on its own to 71f (day 2), held at 71f (day 2-8), let it drop to 66f on its own for the rest(day 8-11), kegged on day 11.

 

[TheHairyHop]

That could just be oxidation from the racking...

There's certainly a division of opinion on whether the extra processing and oxygen from the racking are worth the benefits, it's one of those areas where one person will swear blind to do it one way, and another will do it the other way.

The harshness is definitely from hop particles. They're bitter as heck and bother your throat