Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[beervoid]

Hey there,

I fermented at around 19c (66f).

I have a fermentation chamber with temp probe on stainless ss brewbucket.

So it's day 8 for me now and I'm still at 1.030. It has not moved in the past 60 hours.

Also FYI I used in-date WLP540 and had it in a 2.5 litre starter for 2 days before pitching. 3L flask nearly bubbled over.

I think this is interesting because I've read a few forum posts where people have said this yeast has stalled around there (1.030) for them too.

Perfect opportunity to pitch some 644 and T-58 perhaps? It's almost too perfect, right? Finishing the beer with two minority yeasts after your favourite yeast stalls to add the final touch. I know that's jumping to conclusions but just a funny observation I had to add.

When you do get around to trying this, I do not think you'll be disappointed. It tastes a little rocheforty (only a little) before dry hopping but post dry-hop it's just tasting like fruit-bubblegum juice. Does not taste like a Belgian beer at all (to me).

Can't wait to hear how you go with it.

I haven't had any treehouse in the past 2 years but the last beer I had was king Julius and it absolutely had similarities to this. The big candy taste and bubblegum this yeast gives off reminds me of KJ for sure, and there's nothing about this batch that makes me say, "no, that's a miss". You'll see for yourself.

Might up the temperature a bit now or potentially add a packet of 644.

I think @suregork is really onto something here.

BTW I've been trying all the different S04 wb06 T-58 combos from the get go. Dumped all of them, did not have any success with those.

So i'm on day 9 and I'm in the exact same situation as yourself, sitting at went from 1.072 to 1.030, doesn't seem to move much.
What is your beer currently doing? I'm contemplating between pitching some other yeast or just use this and blend it in my other batches.

 

[Hog]

How’s your beer doing? Did you ever pitch another yeast to finish it?

So i'm on day 9 and I'm in the exact same situation as yourself, sitting at went from 1.072 to 1.030, doesn't seem to move much.
What is your beer currently doing? I'm contemplating between pitching some other yeast or just use this and blend it in my other batches.

Hey again,

That's very interesting your batch with wlp540 has also stalled at 1.030 and same starting gravity, crazy!

Yes @NJGeorge - my beer wouldn't budge from 1.030 for about 4 days... I ended up pitching a full whitelabs package of WLP644 without a starter. The beer just made its way down to 1.018. I decided to cold crash it on Tuesday and i'll keg it this weekend.

I'll be sure to provide preliminary flavour updates as soon as I keg. It was still tasting good out of the fermenter before I crashed it.

Look forward to reading your updates @beervoid too.

 

[TBryerton]

First split batch with WLP023 against Vermont... 12g split into two fermenters.

1.052

Millenium @ 30 (supposedly highest amount of 3MH thiol according to 2019 YCH data)

Simcoe @ 5

WP: Idaho7, Mosaic, Simcoe

DH will be mostly Citra with maybe a bit of Mosaic and Cascade.

@couchsending - how did these turn out? Did the Millenium @ 30 have a noticeable impact?

 

[couchsending]

Honestly I’ve been super underwhelmed with 023 so far. As compare to VT the mouthfeel is much drier at the same gravity and it seems to amplify bitterness. It might have a slightly more “juicy” flavor profile but VT seems to be a bit more aromatic. The overall aroma profile is very similar between the two. Fermentation speed and attenuation are almost identical. 023 does seem to create a hazier beer using the same grist and process.

Just started cooling the split batch I did with VT in one fermenter and a blend of 023/540 in the other. Both hit 1.012 from 1.050 in under 48 hours. 66* for VT, 68* for 023/540. Both were brewed with hops trying to maximize thiol content on the hotside (mosaic, southern cross, millenium, Idaho 7)... both are rather underwhelming before DH to be honest.

I have zero clue if the Millennium I have is any good or not. It smells fine but I don’t know what good Millennium even smells like. A rather hard hop to track down that’s for sure.

 

[beervoid]

Honestly I’ve been super underwhelmed with 023 so far. As compare to VT the mouthfeel is much drier at the same gravity and it seems to amplify bitterness. It might have a slightly more “juicy” flavor profile but VT seems to be a bit more aromatic. The overall aroma profile is very similar between the two. Fermentation speed and attenuation are almost identical. 023 does seem to create a hazier beer using the same grist and process.

Just started cooling the split batch I did with VT in one fermenter and a blend of 023/540 in the other. Both hit 1.012 from 1.050 in under 48 hours. 66* for VT, 68* for 023/540. Both were brewed with hops trying to maximize thiol content on the hotside (mosaic, southern cross, millenium, Idaho 7)... both are rather underwhelming before DH to be honest.

I have zero clue if the Millennium I have is any good or not. It smells fine but I don’t know what good Millennium even smells like. A rather hard hop to track down that’s for sure.

I think chasing oils from hotside might not be the most efficient way to get them in the wort.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I also don't see why those thiol releasing enzymes wouldn't be effective after fermentation. No need to hop during active fermentation but might need highish temps to stay active just like hop creep enzymes.

 

[couchsending]

I think chasing oils from hotside might not be the most efficient way to get them in the wort.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I also don't see why those thiol releasing enzymes wouldn't be effective after fermentation. No need to hop during active fermentation but might need highish temps to stay active just like hop creep enzymes.

Depends... From my understanding a lot of the thiols aren’t that volatile. 3MH for instance actually increases with time in the boil. Most of the studies I’ve seen have focused on getting the thiols into the wort from the hotside. I am going to dry hop this 023/540 blend a bit warmer than I would normally do so there should be plenty of yeast in suspension. I just hate dealing with hop creep.

However I did even get some hop creep down at 58 with 023 on another batch which surprised me as it’s a bit sluggish below 68 from what I can gather. The mouthfeel alone and increased bitterness don’t really inspire me to continue to use it.

 

[beervoid]

Depends... From my understanding a lot of the thiols aren’t that volatile. 3MH for instance actually increases with time in the boil. Most of the studies I’ve seen have focused on getting the thiols into the wort from the hotside. I am going to dry hop this 023/540 blend a bit warmer than I would normally do so there should be plenty of yeast in suspension. I just hate dealing with hop creep.

However I did even get some hop creep down at 58 with 023 on another batch which surprised me as it’s a bit sluggish below 68 from what I can gather. The mouthfeel alone and increased bitterness don’t really inspire me to continue to use it.

But isnt that where those thiol releasing enzymes should do their magic, release those bound thiols instead of relying on hotside, perhaps vigorous fermentation blows all the nice aroma and flavor away. Like you stated before, and I'm experiencing the same thing, no matter how much I load up hotside kettle or wp, when I smell and taste the beer post fermentation, I have never been impressed.

 

[couchsending]

But isnt that where those thiol releasing enzymes should do their magic, release those bound thiols instead of relying on hotside, perhaps vigorous fermentation blows all the nice aroma and flavor away. Like you stated before, and I'm experiencing the same thing, no matter how much I load up hotside kettle or wp, when I smell and taste the beer post fermentation, I have never been impressed.

I don’t know about that. I’m pretty amazed how well certain hops make it through fermentation. Idaho7 and Mosaic especially. Nelson and Riwaka too.

I’ve been focusing on the 3MH thiol which certain yeasts have the ability to turn into 3MHA. However who the hell knows if the hops I’m using even have thiol content similar to what that YCH study reported???

 

[beervoid]

Update on wlp540 batch.
I decided about 6 days ago cause it didn't move, to pitch a package of verdant. Now 6 days later it's down to around 1.023 so still far from what I'm aiming for (1.016)
I expected verdant to finish it off rather quick but it seems to just bubble away very slowly ever since I pitched it. Wlp540 smells really nice, I want to try to make this work but have no way to aireate my wort and I think this is the reason it stalled out earlier.
Next batch I'll probably co pitch it with half a package of verdant and hope it will speed things up a bit

 

[Hog]

Hi all,

Update on my wlp540 and wlp644 batch.

It's tasting great. I still think wlp540 tastes tree-housy but the 644 gave it more of a generic neipa flavour.

Next time i'd try wlp540 only and if it stalls again I'll add some wb-06 or t-58 to finish it off.

Still think if you're considering wlp540 you should go for it. Get that very fluffy mouthfeel and bubblegum note.

Cheers.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Hi all,

Update on my wlp540 and wlp644 batch.

It's tasting great. I still think wlp540 tastes tree-housy but the 644 gave it more of a generic neipa flavour.

Next time i'd try wlp540 only and if it stalls again I'll add some wb-06 or t-58 to finish it off.

Still think if you're considering wlp540 you should go for it. Get that very fluffy mouthfeel and bubblegum note.

Cheers.

Do you think WLP540 is the workhorse not actually S04? A blend of wlp540 and s04 might be nice - the attenuation from s04 will stop the stall.

 

[Hog]

Hi,

Yeah that's the idea, based on @suregork's suggestion that wlp540 could be a "dark horse".

WLP540 is the closest I've come to anything resembling treehouse. The bubblegum in particular.

I think your suggestion of finishing with S04 is a good one... or even co-pitching the two to stop the stall.

My next run I'll probably try WLP540 then add the wb06 and t-58 later if it stalls.

Either way I think you'll get a nice beer with 540 and s04.

Cheers.

 

[beervoid]

Hi,

Yeah that's the idea, based on @suregork's suggestion that wlp540 could be a "dark horse".

WLP540 is the closest I've come to anything resembling treehouse. The bubblegum in particular.

I think your suggestion of finishing with S04 is a good one... or even co-pitching the two to stop the stall.

My next run I'll probably try WLP540 then add the wb06 and t-58 later if it stalls.

Either way I think you'll get a nice beer with 540 and s04.

Cheers.

That bubblegum does fade very fast though, at least with my batches. It really seems they got their DO down to absurd low levels, or somehow found a way to create so much esters they stick around.
The esters of WLP540 seems to change overtime from tropical bubblegum to more raisin, dark fruit like flavors.

It really seems to me as mentioned in this thread before that the first few days after dryhopping the flavor is closest to the Tree House kind of beer, intense fruit and hop flavors...

 

[echoALEia]

That bubblegum does fade very fast though, at least with my batches. It really seems they got their DO down to absurd low levels, or somehow found a way to create so much esters they stick around.
The esters of WLP540 seems to change overtime from tropical bubblegum to more raisin, dark fruit like flavors.

It really seems to me as mentioned in this thread before that the first few days after dryhopping the flavor is closest to the Tree House kind of beer, intense fruit and hop flavors...

This was my experience with 540 exactly. The bubblegum during fermentation is very transient and does not last. I started out at 64, let it rise to 66, fermented it for 3 days, then let it free rise after that. I actually got some fusels from it after that.

We all know this yeast chart (I personally love it)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/htmlview
Can anyone explain why New England has a question mark and why it’s on the same line as wb06? I must be missing something. It would make sense to use this yeast more than wb06.

Cheers everyone!

 

[TBryerton]

Anyone have one of the new curiosity beers that are just Pilsner malt? It seems like they’re making their beers with significantly less protein than all these other breweries, with just as much haze and hop flavor/aroma.

 

[EstebanPro86]

Drinking a ggggreeennn right now canned this month and the aroma is of dog kibble/soy sauce. I was reading that that can happen when old Munich malt is used...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

the aroma is of dog kibble/soy sauce.

Soy sauce can be a sign of yeast autolysis, suggesting it's been left too long with too much dead yeast.

 

[NJGeorge]

Anyone have one of the new curiosity beers that are just Pilsner malt? It seems like they’re making their beers with significantly less protein than all these other breweries, with just as much haze and hop flavor/aroma.

I haven’t. Wish I could try one but there is a lot of protein in good pilsner malt.

 

[couchsending]

I haven’t. Wish I could try one but there is a lot of protein in good pilsner malt.

Continental Pilsner malt, generally no.

North American Pilsner malt, potentially yes. But it depends.

 

[TBryerton]

Continental Pilsner malt, generally no.

North American Pilsner malt, potentially yes. But it depends.

It seems like the mindset of most breweries lately is to load these beers with oats, wheat, or something similar, and a lot of beers that people seem to be drooling over taste like an astringent mess to me. Even some of the better ones are like eating a turkey dinner - they’re so filling I don’t want more than one. Maybe I’m just getting old! Lol

But this seems to be another indication that TH is doing what they do w/o adjuncts for the most part.

 

[NJGeorge]

Continental Pilsner malt, generally no.

North American Pilsner malt, potentially yes. But it depends.

My weyermann brake pils has 11%. That’s pretty high.

 

[beervoid]

My weyermann brake pils has 11%. That’s pretty high.

I just got a batch with only weyermann pale ale and weyermann carapils going. I've had no problem with haze with only english malts.

 

[NJGeorge]

Wonder if they use any pilsner in the core beers? A lot of hoppy breweries use it in their base. I’ve done it a bunch and love it.

 

[couchsending]

Drinking a 110 right now... got some 111 and 112 as well. Yeast character is there but it’s way toned down. I can actually pick our hops on the aroma which is nice.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My impression (with no data) is that the early examples of hazies (across the board, not thinking just TH here) used US malt with no adjuncts, then people started using more British malts (which have lower protein) and added high-protein adjuncts to keep the haze up. Then the copycats saw recipes with oats and wheat and started using them with a base grist of US malt, when perhaps it wasn't needed.

It's worth thinking about these things anyway.

It's also worth noting that the wet weather that delayed planting of spring crops in England followed by hot, dry weather for 3 months means that most 2020 English malt will have high protein content more like European malt, a lot is struggling to meet nitrogen specs. It was a more normal year up north and in Scotland, so pay attention to datasheets but eg Baird and Fawcett will probably have lower nitrogen than the main East Anglian maltsters like Crisp and Munton.

The physiology of nutrient partition is complicated, but the best way to think of it is that when plants have a long growing season and grow slowly (ie normal British conditions) there is more time for the fertiliser applied to the young plants to get used/washed away before they start making grain. So the grain has less nitrogen in it. Whereas there's more nitrogen around when grain is being made by plants growing faster, so more nitrogen ends up in grain grown in European/US conditions.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

The physiology of nutrient partition is complicated, but the best way to think of it is that when plants have a long growing season and grow slowly (ie normal British conditions) there is more time for the fertiliser applied to the young plants to get used/washed away before they start making grain. So the grain has less nitrogen in it. Whereas there's more nitrogen around when grain is being made by plants growing faster, so more nitrogen ends up in grain grown in European/US conditions.

In addition to what you say here (which is certainly true), there is often also an additional, purely concentration/dilution effect. If plants are able to enjoy a prolonged grain-filling period without stress (e.g., without excessive heat, drought or diseases that kill the foliage), they will make bigger grains, so ultimately more yield.
So you will have more starch in the grains relative to protein, i.e. the protein concentration goes down.
If in contrast the plants experience stress during grain filling, you'll end up with smaller kernels, and a (generally) higher protein concentration.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Continental Pilsner malt, generally no.

North American Pilsner malt, potentially yes. But it depends.

Briess 2-Row barley base malt protein seems to average about 11% for types ranging from Brewers to Pilsner. How low does base malt protein need to be whereby to accomplish a cloudy beer? What is the % protein for typical UK Maris Otter or GP?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Wonder if they use any pilsner in the core beers? A lot of hoppy breweries use it in their base. I’ve done it a bunch and love it.

I don't think they use pilsner (maybe a little?) in their core beers. One of the recent curiosities said something about using German pilsner malt as a base malt for the first time. And we do know for sure that 2-row is being used based on descriptions from different offerings. But with that being said, they could be using American pilsner malts in their core beers.

EDIT: Went back and looked: Curiosity Ninety Nine

https://treehousebrew.com/curiosity-ninety-nine

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Briess 2-Row barley base malt protein seems to average about 11% for types ranging from Brewers to Pilsner. How low does base malt protein need to be whereby to accomplish a cloudy beer? What is the % protein for typical UK Maris Otter or GP?

As an example, Simpsons are currently quoting min/max of 8.13-9.69% protein (you have to go to the ASBC/EBC tabs, as the UK normally quotes % nitrogen, which is protein/6.25).

Haze is generally considered to be the result of protein (mostly from grist) interacting with polyphenols (mostly from hops), so you don't want low protein but high. But there may be other considerations, like the flavour contributions of British malts.

 

[Trillium]

Bummer that all the images from Isomerization posts are gone.