Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[beervoid]

I assume you tried different fermentation temps & that did not work for you? You must be referring to final pH? I am one of the few that actually like that weird tart thing in S04, but only get it in my beers inconsistently. I pick up the S04 signature flavor strongly in Psuedo Sue, not really at all in other TG beers.

Not really the tart thing, it's more like a banana/bubblegum thing that I really don't dig, I'm missing that tropical juicy flavor that for example conan or la3 can bring to the table. I picked it up in King Sue very clearly.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Yes, I aim for 4.5 final and am usually in the ballpark, I just really don't like the character of this yeast somehow, I can pick it up very strongly in Toppling Goliath beers.

Aiming for a final pH is not the same as mash or kettle. But if you don't like it, then you don't like it. I found it changed profile drastically once I was adjusting before the fermenter

 

[beervoid]

Aiming for a final pH is not the same as mash or kettle. But if you don't like it, then you don't like it. I found it changed profile drastically once I was adjusting before the fermenter

Interesting, I would never suspect pre fermentation PH would influence yeast flavor but that does make sense it could. What kind of PH did you notice made the different? I'm usually around 5.0-5.1 ko

 

[Northern_Brewer]

FWIW, TH have announced a custom 19oz glass :

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Okay so my trial of a 50/50 blend of wlp540 (I used wyeast 1762 - the equivalent) and s04 is in. Fermented at 60-61 for about 3 days and then let it free rise to 66 where I let it finish. Overall, very close to a TH in flavor in texture, but still missing a little special something. I think next time the move is 25/75 of wlp540/s04. I have some fresh TH on hand to compare it to and there is def similarities in flavor, but I think the belgian yeast came through slightly too much. Not in a phenolic, fusel, type way - just a little overly fruity compared to TH. Excellent beer though. Now I just need to get the foam to stick to the glass more in the likes of TH but that is another topic. Great head retention other wise.

OG: 1.076
FG: 1.014

 

[beervoid]

Okay so my trial of a 50/50 blend of wlp540 (I used wyeast 1762 - the equivalent) and s04 is in. Fermented at 60-61 for about 3 days and then let it free rise to 66 where I let it finish. Overall, very close to a TH in flavor in texture, but still missing a little special something. I think next time the move is 25/75 of wlp540/s04. I have some fresh TH on hand to compare it to and there is def similarities in flavor, but I think the belgian yeast came through slightly too much. Not in a phenolic, fusel, type way - just a little overly fruity compared to TH. Excellent beer though. Now I just need to get the foam to stick to the glass more in the likes of TH but that is another topic. Great head retention other wise.

OG: 1.076
FG: 1.014

Did you add dryhops during fermentation? and as far as I know the Wyeast version is not exactly the same, can't source you on this cause I dont remember where I read it, might be suregork

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Did you add dryhops during fermentation? and as far as I know the Wyeast version is not exactly the same, can't source you on this cause I dont remember where I read it, might be suregork

I dry hop post fermentation now.

Good to know about the Wyeast 1762. I would use it again based on these results, but next time I will probably
try the White Labs version

 

[TheHairyHop]

Interesting, I would never suspect pre fermentation PH would influence yeast flavor but that does make sense it could. What kind of PH did you notice made the different? I'm usually around 5.0-5.1 ko

After aiming for a mash pH of 5.25, my problems with S-04 went away. I’ve never measured KO, but I think it should calculate out to like 4.9.
Research has shown that a higher KO pH results in more ester production. Completely out of my ass, but I would bet it also results in increased organic acid production as the yeast tries harder to get its environment to the pH that it wants. I’m guessing that both of these things can result in S-04 having that gross bready twang.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Some peer reviewed research from yore quantified that once a room temperature measured pH of about 5.1-5.2 is achieved, little to no additional pH drop occurs across the duration of the boil step (unless you add acid). If you enter the boil at a room temperature measured 5.25 pH, you are more likely to be reaching KO at around 5.1-5.2 pH, than reaching KO at 4.9 pH.

Per the literature, if you enter the boil at a room temperature measured pH of 5.50 - 5.55, and there is sufficient excess remaining unbound calcium ion present, you "may" see a drop to 5.2 pH across the boil. But the 'maximum' measure of the boil pH drop is about 0.3 - 0.35 pH points, and the minimum measure of the same drop is zero. In general, the higher the pre-boil pH and the higher the 'free' calcium, the greater the measured pH drop across the boil, but with a maximum drop of about 0.3 to perhaps 0.35 points...

 

[TheHairyHop]

The topic of what temperature pH is measured at has been discussed to death. The only time I’ve seen threads basically locked on this site has come from some of those topics. People get angsty af over it. The only point that matters is that when I target a mash pH of 5.25, my problems with S-04 go away. I also *sincerely * doubt that reducing a volume of an organic solution by over 10% does not alter its pH.

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Honest question: do you all (people in this thread) still think most of the treehouse beers are as good as they once were?

Last week I had an aaaalterrr ego, a very green, and a brighter than starlight and I thought all three were just meh. They really weren’t all that special at all and the brighter than starlight had major hop burn and was super astringent. I’ve had a lot of treehouse over the years and am really starting to be disappointed every time i get my hands on some.

If I blind taste tested all the three of these, and then found out they were treehouse I’d have been pretty surprised. Just my 2 cents.....curious if anyone else feels the same.

I wanted to 2nd this. I live in MA and get TH fairly frequently. Green (circa 2017) was the greatest beer i've ever had. So dank! Stinky like an old pair of gym socks, but in a good way! But for the past 2yrs or so it's just 'meh'. Same with all the other core beers. Funny thing is I also feel this way about Trillium ipa's. They are meh lately too.

I've told myself that its either my palette changing or that maybe hops were better a few ago and the latest crops just aren't all that strong? I mean, wine vintages vary from year to year and go through multi-year good and bad stretches.

Is there anybody else out there who feels 2020-2021 ipas just aren't as good as they were a few years ago or are my senses broken?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I also *sincerely * doubt that reducing a volume of an organic solution by over 10% does not alter its pH.

Well, the pH alteration from volume shrinkage via boiling might not be as much as one might imagine.

Let's look at the 10% volume reduction pH of a non-buffered (sans for the addition of some acid) DI water sample acidified to pH 5.25.

Molar concentration of free H+ ions = 10^-5.25 = 0.000005623

Now when we retain the free H+ (acid) ions, but shrink the volume by 10%, we can loosely assume that the molar concentration of H+ ions increases by 11.111...%. Therefore:

0.000005623 x 1.111 = 0.000006247

And the pH associated with this new H+ concentration due to boil-off alone (with the presumption of zero azeotropic loss of free H+ ions) is:

-log(0.000006247) = ~5.204 pH

The shrinkage in volume by ~10% results for this case in a pH reduction of ~0.046 pH points.

But in a highly buffered system (such as Wort) the induced pH drop due to reducing volume by 10% would be less than the 0.046 pH points drop for weakly buffered water.

 

[beervoid]

Some peer reviewed research from yore quantified that once a room temperature measured pH of about 5.1-5.2 is achieved, little to no additional pH drop occurs across the duration of the boil step (unless you add acid). If you enter the boil at a room temperature measured 5.25 pH, you are more likely to be reaching KO at around 5.1-5.2 pH, than reaching KO at 4.9 pH.

Per the literature, if you enter the boil at a room temperature measured pH of 5.50 - 5.55, and there is sufficient excess remaining unbound calcium ion present, you "may" see a drop to 5.2 pH across the boil. But the 'maximum' measure of the boil pH drop is about 0.3 - 0.35 pH points, and the minimum measure of the same drop is zero. In general, the higher the pre-boil pH and the higher the 'free' calcium, the greater the measured pH drop across the boil, but with a maximum drop of about 0.3 to perhaps 0.35 points...

Interesting, I always wondered why I never see much PH drop, I'm usually around 5.2-5.3 at the end of mash. I always have to add quiet some acid to get to a 5.0 KO

The topic of what temperature pH is measured at has been discussed to death. The only time I’ve seen threads basically locked on this site has come from some of those topics. People get angsty af over it. The only point that matters is that when I target a mash pH of 5.25, my problems with S-04 go away. I also *sincerely * doubt that reducing a volume of an organic solution by over 10% does not alter its pH.

I would bet your KO would be somewhere in the 5.1-5.2 range, have you ever measured it?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I dug through Wiley Online and came across this 1975 brewing research document (link below). See Table XI on page 68 at the bottom left. It shows that in their tests:

1) A Wort which started the boil at a room temp. pH of 5.78 exited the boil at pH 5.48. Drop = 0.30 pts.
2) A Wort which started the boil at a room temp. pH of 5.64 exited the boil at pH 5.41. Drop = 0.23 pts.
3) A Wort which started the boil at a room temp. pH of 5.48 exited the boil at pH 5.30. Drop = 0.18 pts.
4) A Wort which started the boil at a room temp. pH of 5.32 exited the boil at pH 5.19. Drop = 0.13 pts.

This confirms that the higher the initial pH the greater the across the boil pH drop, and visa-versa. The table data is said within the text to be sourced from no less than Narziss. Convergence occurs at pH 5.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1975.tb03663.x

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

Took me over a week to read this whole thread start to finish. Awesome stuff. I think I’m gonna try to do an under pitch of S-04 and use a whole packet of Bananza and do on the low side 60ish and raise to 66 over the course of a day or so. Seems like this could get us close to treehouse because seems like we have not figured out the other half of treehouse yeast. They must be doing something to hide that clove characteristic but if Omega has done it for us then why not try it out? I’ll report back. Will be doing a basic recipe and will update.

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

Update

I ended up brewing today

Batch size 5.5-6g in fermenter

9lbs Golden Promise
3lbs Maris Otter
2lbs Oat Malt
12oz Carapils

I know people recommended carafoam and not oat component but I figured I would try what I had. Also ran out of golden promise. I wanted to use just that as my base malt

Mash 156 (had some trouble and mash was 154-158 so it averaged out)
Mash Out 168 10 min

Basic water profile

Hop schedule
.5oz Warrior at 60 min
2oz Cashmere WP at 170
2oz Mosaic WP at 170
1oz Idaho 7 at 170

I added yeast nutrient at 10 min in the boil

SG 1071

Pitched full packet of Bananza and half pack of S-04 at 74 immediately cooled to 60 prob took 4-5 hours, ground water is too warm to get it to 60 without a ferm chamber.

Dry hop plan
Day 2/3 ramp up to 66
1oz Cashmere
1oz Mosaic
.5 Idaho 7
1g of aromatic enzyme

After fermentation dry hop
3oz Cashemere
3oz Mosaic
1.5oz Idaho 7
Maybe after .5g of aromatic enzyme?

I know they don’t double dry hop often but I want to try this with the aromatic enzyme and dry hopping after fermentation with my new equipment with no oxygen (new kegmenter)

Then cold crash for a day or two then carb in the keg, either with CBC-1 yeast or my regular kegging method. I haven’t decided. I will update later on the progress. I’m excited to see how this goes. I know someone did one similar that turned out okay but they didn’t have temp control. I’m gonna try this on the cold side and see how it plays out. Even though they suggest over 68 for Banana flavor with Bananza.

EDIT: I actually might do 64 fermenting in the beginning due to that being the low end of the suggested range for Bananza.

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

Thinking out loud. Since WB-06 is made for Hefeweizen beers and T-58 is made for Belgian beers, I’m wondering how it would be mixing Sundew/Bananza/s-04. You get all those tropical yeast qualities without the phenolic characteristics. Depending how this one comes out I’ll probably shoot for that next. I know this isn’t treehouse “secret sauce” but could be a cheat code to get there.

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

Update

I ended up brewing today

Batch size 5.5-6g in fermenter

9lbs Golden Promise
3lbs Maris Otter
2lbs Oat Malt
12oz Carapils

I know people recommended carafoam and not oat component but I figured I would try what I had. Also ran out of golden promise. I wanted to use just that as my base malt

Mash 156 (had some trouble and mash was 154-158 so it averaged out)
Mash Out 168 10 min

Basic water profile

Hop schedule
.5oz Warrior at 60 min
2oz Cashmere WP at 170
2oz Mosaic WP at 170
1oz Idaho 7 at 170

I added yeast nutrient at 10 min in the boil

SG 1071

Pitched full packet of Bananza and half pack of S-04 at 74 immediately cooled to 60 prob took 4-5 hours, ground water is too warm to get it to 60 without a ferm chamber.

Dry hop plan
Day 2/3 ramp up to 66
1oz Cashmere
1oz Mosaic
.5 Idaho 7
1g of aromatic enzyme

After fermentation dry hop
3oz Cashemere
3oz Mosaic
1.5oz Idaho 7
Maybe after .5g of aromatic enzyme?

I know they don’t double dry hop often but I want to try this with the aromatic enzyme and dry hopping after fermentation with my new equipment with no oxygen (new kegmenter)

Then cold crash for a day or two then carb in the keg, either with CBC-1 yeast or my regular kegging method. I haven’t decided. I will update later on the progress. I’m excited to see how this goes. I know someone did one similar that turned out okay but they didn’t have temp control. I’m gonna try this on the cold side and see how it plays out. Even though they suggest over 68 for Banana flavor with Bananza.

EDIT: I actually might do 64 fermenting in the beginning due to that being the low end of the suggested range for Bananza.

Meant 1061 not 1071***

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thinking out loud. Since WB-06 is made for Hefeweizen beers and T-58 is made for Belgian beers, I’m wondering how it would be mixing Sundew/Bananza/s-04. You get all those tropical yeast qualities without the phenolic characteristics.

It's an interesting thought that is perhaps worth pursuing in its own right, but the premise is mistaken. WB-06 is not a hefe yeast, it's a weird member of the saison family that is closest to the Duvel yeasts. If you want a POF- hefe yeast, it's called a kolsch yeast, but a POF- version of WB-06 is much harder, probably WLP026 is the nearest we have.

And T-58 isn't particularly "Belgian", and we already have POF- versions of it that are much closer to it than Sundew - they're called S-33 and Windsor. It's not clear whether they have the same biotransformation activity though.

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

It's an interesting thought that is perhaps worth pursuing in its own right, but the premise is mistaken. WB-06 is not a hefe yeast, it's a weird member of the saison family that is closest to the Duvel yeasts. If you want a POF- hefe yeast, it's called a kolsch yeast, but a POF- version of WB-06 is much harder, probably WLP026 is the nearest we have.

And T-58 isn't particularly "Belgian", and we already have POF- versions of it that are much closer to it than Sundew - they're called S-33 and Windsor. It's not clear whether they have the same biotransformation activity though.

Sorry I thought WB-06 was a Hefeweizen strain due to the clove flavor. I guess my thought was that it’s loosely confirmed that it’s WB-06 and T-58, along with S-04, and treehouse is somehow doing something to get rid of or lessen that POF+ characteristic, whether it is using a 3/4 generation of these to lessen those characteristics, while Sundew/Bananza has done that by getting rid of those all together. Either way it definitely would be an interesting experiment nonetheless.

 

[NJGeorge]

Update

I ended up brewing today

Batch size 5.5-6g in fermenter

9lbs Golden Promise
3lbs Maris Otter
2lbs Oat Malt
12oz Carapils

I know people recommended carafoam and not oat component but I figured I would try what I had. Also ran out of golden promise. I wanted to use just that as my base malt

Mash 156 (had some trouble and mash was 154-158 so it averaged out)
Mash Out 168 10 min

Basic water profile

Hop schedule
.5oz Warrior at 60 min
2oz Cashmere WP at 170
2oz Mosaic WP at 170
1oz Idaho 7 at 170

I added yeast nutrient at 10 min in the boil

SG 1071

Pitched full packet of Bananza and half pack of S-04 at 74 immediately cooled to 60 prob took 4-5 hours, ground water is too warm to get it to 60 without a ferm chamber.

Dry hop plan
Day 2/3 ramp up to 66
1oz Cashmere
1oz Mosaic
.5 Idaho 7
1g of aromatic enzyme

After fermentation dry hop
3oz Cashemere
3oz Mosaic
1.5oz Idaho 7
Maybe after .5g of aromatic enzyme?

I know they don’t double dry hop often but I want to try this with the aromatic enzyme and dry hopping after fermentation with my new equipment with no oxygen (new kegmenter)

Then cold crash for a day or two then carb in the keg, either with CBC-1 yeast or my regular kegging method. I haven’t decided. I will update later on the progress. I’m excited to see how this goes. I know someone did one similar that turned out okay but they didn’t have temp control. I’m gonna try this on the cold side and see how it plays out. Even though they suggest over 68 for Banana flavor with Bananza.

EDIT: I actually might do 64 fermenting in the beginning due to that being the low end of the suggested range for Bananza.

I would ferment at 66-68 right off the bat and not 60. 60 might suppress those nice esters from Bananza. I did bananza at 66-68 with so4 and it was great. Why start out at 60?

 

[beervoid]

I would ferment at 66-68 right off the bat and not 60. 60 might suppress those nice esters from Bananza. I did bananza at 66-68 and it was great. Why start out at 60?

I'd be surprised the yeast ferments at that temperature. I think on a homebrew scale we need to be very vigilant on KO temps into the fermenter and the actual temperature control we have, considering the fermenter heats up during fermentation and many folks do not temperature control by a probe inside the fermenter.
On such a small scale temperature differences will occur much faster.

 

[NJGeorge]

I'd be surprised the yeast ferments at that temperature. I think on a homebrew scale we need to be very vigilant on KO temps into the fermenter and the actual temperature control we have, considering the fermenter heats up during fermentation and many folks do not temperature control by a probe inside the fermenter.
On such a small scale temperature differences will occur much faster.

Exactly. I use the temp probe inside my spike conical. I think I read that Omega says DO NOT go under 65 or 66 with that yeast. Warm that sucker up ASAP! and keep around 66 to 70.

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

Exactly. I use the temp probe inside my spike conical. I think I read that Omega says DO NOT go under 65 or 66 with that yeast. Warm that sucker up ASAP! and keep around 66 to 70.

Thanks for the input. I just raised it up. My plan was to keep it at 60-62 for a day or two so that the S-04 might get going then bump the temp up later for the Bananza because in this thread there is a lot of talk that treehouse ferments in the beginning at 60F then might ramp it up but I did not find anyone fermenting at 60F for S-04, usually around 66F. Was going to take the bullet and see what happens at 60F but I guess I’ll do 66-68 to get that banana flavor

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

I'd be surprised the yeast ferments at that temperature. I think on a homebrew scale we need to be very vigilant on KO temps into the fermenter and the actual temperature control we have, considering the fermenter heats up during fermentation and many folks do not temperature control by a probe inside the fermenter.
On such a small scale temperature differences will occur much faster.

I agree. I have a tilt and that’s the most accurate reading, and surprisingly my probe is relatively close to my tilt temp.

 

[NJGeorge]

Thanks for the input. I just raised it up. My plan was to keep it at 60-62 for a day or two so that the S-04 might get going then bump the temp up later for the Bananza because in this thread there is a lot of talk that treehouse ferments in the beginning at 60F then might ramp it up but I did not find anyone fermenting at 60F for S-04, usually around 66F. Was going to take the bullet and see what happens at 60F but I guess I’ll do 66-68 to get that banana flavor

We have NO IDEA what they start fermentation at lol. All speculation beside the pictures of the old fermentation temp control panel which was in Monson and most were set at 66. Same with their yeast, we have no idea what they are using.

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

We have NO IDEA what they start fermentation at lol. All speculation beside the pictures of the old fermentation temp control panel which was in Monson and most were set at 66.

I agree. There are still a lot of unknowns but the unknown of temp hasn’t really be tested in this thread. I have found that all the experiments with S-04 or the trio, have been at 66F and not on the cool side at 60F, unless I missed someone testing this out? I would like to hear their experience. That’s why I was going to test it but I would rather have the banana esters from Bananza, maybe next time just use S-04 at 60F and pitch the Bananza a couple days on at the high 68-70 temp.

 

[NJGeorge]

I agree. There are still a lot of unknowns but the unknown of temp hasn’t really be tested in this thread. I have found that all the experiments with S-04 or the trio, have been at 66F and not on the cool side at 60F, unless I missed someone testing this out? I would like to hear their experience. That’s why I was going to test it but I would rather have the banana esters from Bananza, maybe next time just use S-04 at 60F and pitch the Bananza a couple days on at the high 68-70 temp.

In the very beginning of this thread a coupe guys were trying the trio and different ratios at 60-62.

 

[beervoid]

In the very beginning of this thread a coupe guys were trying the trio and different ratios at 60-62.

Yes but was that 60-62 ambient meassured outside or inside with probe or tilt? That can have a big difference.

 

[beervoid]

Just to elaborate, I do not believe any of these yeasts would ferment good at 60-62f
What im questioning is if people that are claiming they tested the yeasts at these temps where pitching at those cold temps and did they meassure fermentation temps afterwards inside the fermenter.