Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[mcoman]

My best hazy to date that I did back in the spring I had 6 oz whirlpool(180 degrees) in a 4.25 gallon batch. It wasn't meant to be that much whirlpool but I accidentally threw some of the dry hop charge into whirlpool. Dry hop ended up being 4 oz T90 and 1 oz cryo(simcoe), so essentially the same amount. The beer wasn't bitter at all and bursting with juicy hop flavor. I think alot of people sleep on the hot side hops and assume they don't add much.

The recipe I like uses 4.5oz/5gal in the whirlpool and 6.5oz/5gal of dry hops. I get plenty of juicy hop flavor too much IMO with LAIII. I think hop quality plays a big role as well. I recently started buying my hops directly from Yakima Valley rather than my local homebrew shop. Not only is the quality much better but they are usually cheaper too.

In my recipes I mostly keep it to 2 hop verities a main hop and supporting hop in roughly a 3:1 ratio. I just buy 8 oz. packs from Yakima Valley and use the whole thing in one batch as my main hop, that way I don't have to worry about how fresh an open pack of hops are.

 

[TBryerton]

Ordered some 1028, wlp023, wlp540 to try next to VT Ale. Interested to see how the supposed “biotransformative” properties of these yeast compare to the yeast I use all the time.

@couchsending what do you typically ferment VT ale at? Underpitch or no?

I ordered from the yeast bay for the first time - going to brew this wknd.

 

[couchsending]

@couchsending what do you typically ferment VT ale at? Underpitch or no?

I ordered from the yeast bay for the first time - going to brew this wknd.

I think unless you’ve got a microscope I wouldn’t suggest under pitching. I don’t trust yeast calculators at all and generally try to pitch a pretty healthy amount of yeast. I’ve been repitching by weight lately. Gotten to 7 or 8 generations with VT. If it’s 5% or less I pitch at 62 and let freerise to 68 and leave it there. If it’s 6% or over I pitch at 62 and let rise to 66 for 2-3 days then let it finish at 68-70 usually.

 

[beervoid]

My best hazy to date that I did back in the spring I had 6 oz whirlpool(180 degrees) in a 4.25 gallon batch. It wasn't meant to be that much whirlpool but I accidentally threw some of the dry hop charge into whirlpool. Dry hop ended up being 4 oz T90 and 1 oz cryo(simcoe), so essentially the same amount. The beer wasn't bitter at all and bursting with juicy hop flavor. I think alot of people sleep on the hot side hops and assume they don't add much.

Ok so just to know what you see as bitter. Is Other Half bitter for you?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Ok so just to know what you see as bitter. Is Other Half bitter for you?

I haven't had a ton of OH(I think 4?). I don't recall alot of bitterness but they may have had some bite. One of them with galaxy hops had major hop burn and was terrible

 

[NJGeorge]

Have any of you guys had the recent bottled Julius? Been hearing a lot of buzz about this batch. Looks darker from the pics too. Anyone try a touch roast malt in ipas?

 

[TheHairyHop]

I just did another split batch of S-04. I'm pretty sure knockout pH is really important in avoiding the tart, bready flavors that I had (and hated) in the past. This is my second or so batch adjusting pH, and the beer is nice. One of the kegs, I pitched at a rate half of the other. This was a really crude underpitch experiment. I tell you what, I haven't oxidized an IPA in what feels like years, but that sucker is brown, sweet, and kind of tastes like olives. Absolute disaster. I think maybe the slow fermentation allowed the heavy whirlpool to oxidize before the yeast could scrub the fermenter.

 

[beervoid]

I just did another split batch of S-04. I'm pretty sure knockout pH is really important in avoiding the tart, bready flavors that I had (and hated) in the past. This is my second or so batch adjusting pH, and the beer is nice. One of the kegs, I pitched at a rate half of the other. This was a really crude underpitch experiment. I tell you what, I haven't oxidized an IPA in what feels like years, but that sucker is brown, sweet, and kind of tastes like olives. Absolute disaster. I think maybe the slow fermentation allowed the heavy whirlpool to oxidize before the yeast could scrub the fermenter.

Sure you didnt over oxygenate?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Sure you didnt over oxygenate?

Hm. Maybe? I don't have a stone or anything. Just filled up the 5 gallon and shook it. I guess to be clear, I'm less making a statement about the underpitch itself, and more just coming to the conclusion that I apparently can't treat it like my other pitches

 

[beervoid]

Hm. Maybe? I don't have a stone or anything. Just filled up the 5 gallon and shook it. I guess to be clear, I'm less making a statement about the underpitch itself, and more just coming to the conclusion that I apparently can't treat it like my other pitches

Awkward indeed.
Dry yeast doesnt need oxygenation but there is a limit to how much oxygen you can get into your wort by shaking, it typically lower then yeast needs.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Awkward indeed.
Dry yeast doesnt need oxygenation but there is a limit to how much oxygen you can get into your wort by shaking, it typically lower then yeast needs.

Yea, the shaking is more to get the dry yeast in suspension and not just caking on the bottom than anything else. I ferment in 5 gallon corny kegs as well. Closed transfer to fermentation purged serving kegs. So, yea... not sure. Thankfully, I just wasted Wakatu instead of something more expensive. Although, I was really looking forward to having a Wakatu IPA on tap :/
I guess the one other variable was that I switched to Bravo for my whirlpooling this time. I don't think Bravo has anything going on with it like extra manganese or whatever Scott identified as an oxidation precursor in his book. Could be wrong though

 

[NJGeorge]

That is fascinating indeed. I will pull the trigger and get some wlp540 and wlp644 to play with.
I'm done experimenting with s04 and the other dry yeasts personally. None of them give me bright juicy flavors. La3 was always preferred by a long shot, I really wonder now how much thiols la3 releases. I guess it would be fair to associate the signature neipa juice with mainly thiols.

Have you had any luck trying those yeast yet? If so, what did you think of them?

 

[beervoid]

Have you had any luck trying those yeast yet? If so, what did you think of them?

I havent gotten them in yet, orders take a while here, ill def report back.

 

[couchsending]

First split batch with WLP023 against Vermont... 12g split into two fermenters.

1.052

Millenium @ 30 (supposedly highest amount of 3MH thiol according to 2019 YCH data)

Simcoe @ 5

WP: Idaho7, Mosaic, Simcoe

DH will be mostly Citra with maybe a bit of Mosaic and Cascade.

 

[beervoid]

Just wanted to add, I tried Bry-97 vs La3, the bry batch dropped clear and smells very different, much more clean true to hop and less juicy then la3.
Its carbing now, if something changes I will report back.

 

[NJGeorge]

I know we would like to know what yeast they use but we could try to get close trying new things. I have a batch fermented with the new bananza and a half pack of s04. 1.082OG going to dry hop with mostly citra, some Galaxy Simco and Amarillo.

 

[Hog]

Another guy who's been lurking from the get-go attempting to make a small contribution here.

Following @suregork 's suggestions I've got a batch fermenting with WLP544 - the Rochefort strain. I'll let you all know it goes. Doing this un-blended to get the best idea of how it tastes in an IPA and it possibly being the S04-like component of the blend (Suregork).

The starter is the bready-est smelling yeast I've brewed with thus since I began brewing NEIPAs on a regular basis in 2016.

Recipe is:
20litres
Golden promise 4.2kg
Goldennaked oats 1.2kg
Rolled oats - 1.2kg
Acidulated 0.300g

100g grams each of citra, galaxy and Nelson. Late boil and dry hop.

I've consumed a-lot or Rochefort 8 and a fair bit of treehouse. Could definitely equate the treehouse fluffy light mouth feel with Rochefort 8.

If it turns out alright I'll try another with WLP544 + Sach Trois and possibly T-58.

Anyway cheers I'll post how it tastes.

 

[Hog]

Haha, off to a great start, I meant to say WLP540, not 544. Yeesh.

 

[NJGeorge]

Haha, off to a great start, I meant to say WLP540, not 544. Yeesh.

How’s it going how does it smell and taste? My batch using bananza and some s04 is promising.

 

[Hog]

How’s it going how does it smell and taste? My batch using bananza and some s04 is promising.

Hey there,

Sample after 6 days in the fermenter tastes like grape hubba-bubba (to me) like melted grape hubba-bubba tape. That's my most accurate description and precisely what I taste. so I hope that helps. To me it's a good flavour, loads of character.

The smell is hard for me to describe. Like artificial fruit/orange juice concentrate. Plasticky fruit. Winegums?

Those flavours and scents are strong too, not muted and as I said, to me, good.

Having said that it's a bit too early to tell. I'm at 1.030 down from 1.062.

I'm going to add 200grams of hops now and see how that flavour changes. Will update again shortly.

How's the bananza S04 tasting?

Cheers.

 

[NJGeorge]

Hey there,

Sample after 6 days in the fermenter tastes like grape hubba-bubba (to me) like melted grape hubba-bubba tape. That's my most accurate description and precisely what I taste. so I hope that helps. To me it's a good flavour, loads of character.

The smell is hard for me to describe. Like artificial fruit/orange juice concentrate. Plasticky fruit. Winegums?

Those flavours and scents are strong too, not muted and as I said, to me, good.

Having said that it's a bit too early to tell. I'm at 1.030 down from 1.062.

I'm going to add 200grams of hops now and see how that flavour changes. Will update again shortly.

How's the bananza S04 tasting?

Cheers.

My batch is good. Fruity banana notes. I haven’t brewed in a while and forgot to adjust my efficiency on the recipe calculator so it came out to 9%! So it’s a bit strong. I can see similarities to TH but obviously not exact. I want to mix the bananza with that other yeast Omega just came out with which is a pof- Belgian yeast. Keep us posted!

 

[beervoid]

Hey there,

Sample after 6 days in the fermenter tastes like grape hubba-bubba (to me) like melted grape hubba-bubba tape. That's my most accurate description and precisely what I taste. so I hope that helps. To me it's a good flavour, loads of character.

The smell is hard for me to describe. Like artificial fruit/orange juice concentrate. Plasticky fruit. Winegums?

Those flavours and scents are strong too, not muted and as I said, to me, good.

Having said that it's a bit too early to tell. I'm at 1.030 down from 1.062.

I'm going to add 200grams of hops now and see how that flavour changes. Will update again shortly.

How's the bananza S04 tasting?

Cheers.

What temps did you ferment at? Im giving wlp540 a go soon

 

[Hog]

What temps did you ferment at? Im giving wlp540 a go soon

Hey there,

I fermented at around 19c (66f).

I have a fermentation chamber with temp probe on stainless ss brewbucket.

So it's day 8 for me now and I'm still at 1.030. It has not moved in the past 60 hours.

Also FYI I used in-date WLP540 and had it in a 2.5 litre starter for 2 days before pitching. 3L flask nearly bubbled over.

I think this is interesting because I've read a few forum posts where people have said this yeast has stalled around there (1.030) for them too.

Perfect opportunity to pitch some 644 and T-58 perhaps? It's almost too perfect, right? Finishing the beer with two minority yeasts after your favourite yeast stalls to add the final touch. I know that's jumping to conclusions but just a funny observation I had to add.

When you do get around to trying this, I do not think you'll be disappointed. It tastes a little rocheforty (only a little) before dry hopping but post dry-hop it's just tasting like fruit-bubblegum juice. Does not taste like a Belgian beer at all (to me).

Can't wait to hear how you go with it.

I haven't had any treehouse in the past 2 years but the last beer I had was king Julius and it absolutely had similarities to this. The big candy taste and bubblegum this yeast gives off reminds me of KJ for sure, and there's nothing about this batch that makes me say, "no, that's a miss". You'll see for yourself.

Might up the temperature a bit now or potentially add a packet of 644.

I think @suregork is really onto something here.

BTW I've been trying all the different S04 wb06 T-58 combos from the get go. Dumped all of them, did not have any success with those.

 

[beervoid]

Hey there,

I fermented at around 19c (66f).

I have a fermentation chamber with temp probe on stainless ss brewbucket.

So it's day 8 for me now and I'm still at 1.030. It has not moved in the past 60 hours.

Also FYI I used in-date WLP540 and had it in a 2.5 litre starter for 2 days before pitching. 3L flask nearly bubbled over.

I think this is interesting because I've read a few forum posts where people have said this yeast has stalled around there (1.030) for them too.

Perfect opportunity to pitch some 644 and T-58 perhaps? It's almost too perfect, right? Finishing the beer with two minority yeasts after your favourite yeast stalls to add the final touch. I know that's jumping to conclusions but just a funny observation I had to add.

When you do get around to trying this, I do not think you'll be disappointed. It tastes a little rocheforty (only a little) before dry hopping but post dry-hop it's just tasting like fruit-bubblegum juice. Does not taste like a Belgian beer at all (to me).

Can't wait to hear how you go with it.

I haven't had any treehouse in the past 2 years but the last beer I had was king Julius and it absolutely had similarities to this. The big candy taste and bubblegum this yeast gives off reminds me of KJ for sure, and there's nothing about this yeast that makes me say, "no, that's a miss". You'll see for yourself.

Might up the temperature a bit now or potentially add a packet of 644.

I think @suregork is really onto something here.

BTW I've been trying all the different S04 wb06 T-58 combos from the get go. Dumped all of them, did not have any success with those.

Thanks for the feedback.
Did you aireate?

 

[Hog]

Thanks for the feedback.
Did you aireate?

Hey there,

No worries. Good question/point, I did not aerate this beer. I have never aerated a beer!

Hope that's of value and may of course explain the stall.

Cheers.

 

[beervoid]

Hey there,

No worries. Good question/point, I did not aerate this beer. I have never aerated a beer!

Hope that's of value and may of course explain the stall.

Cheers.

Wlp says the strain benefits from extra aireation

 

[Clyde McCoy]

@suregork have you tested Fermentis S-04 and T-58 and found liquid strains (White Labs, Escarpment, etc.) with identical banding patterns? Would be useful if you could find a match in case Tree House isn't using Fermentis yeast.

These are some of the unresolved strains:

 

[suregork]

I haven't tested very many no. I do have a load of White Labs (including WLP540) and Fermentis strains in the -80 freezer though, so can try to test them at some point when I have time later this spring. Currently out of office on parental leave.

 

[chieftain]

So I gotta say that taste-wise, my latest attempt was notably in range for the Hurricane/Typhoon series, which is one of my favorites. I definitely had some process screw-ups along the way, that likely negatively impacted the beer, but this is progress (for me, at least)!

I ran S04 at 62 for prob 4-5 days, then gradually bumped to 65-67-70 for another 4-5 days. I then dry-hopped in a separate keg, after a cool crash to 60 degrees. The beer went from 1.068 to 1.010, so it does not have the body that Tree House does, but it is also not "thin," perhaps thanks to dry hopping load. The beer was notably clear going into the dry hopping keg, and came out opaque.

Water profile - 52ppm Ca, 21ppm Mg, 46 ppm NaCl, 162 CaSO4, 104 Cl.

Grist

​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​
12 lbs​	Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)​	Grain​	7​	70.6 %​
4 lbs​	Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (1.2 SRM)​	Grain​	8​	23.5 %​
1 lbs​	Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)​	Grain​	9​	5.9 %​

Hops

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​
0.25 oz​	Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min​	Hop​	10​	10.5 IBUs​
1.00 oz​	Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min​	Hop​	11​	7.0 IBUs​
0.50 oz​	Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min​	Hop​	12​	3.2 IBUs​

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​
2.00 oz​	Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min​	Hop​	13​	12.5 IBUs​
2.00 oz​	Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min​	Hop​	14​	13.5 IBUs​

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​
6.90 oz​	Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days​	Hop​	16​	0.0 IBUs​
3.00 oz​	Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days​	Hop​	17​	0.0 IBUs​

 

[NJGeorge]

Hey there,

No worries. Good question/point, I did not aerate this beer. I have never aerated a beer!

Hope that's of value and may of course explain the stall.

Cheers.

How’s your beer doing? Did you ever pitch another yeast to finish it?