applescrap
Be the ball!
I think it might be. Where can I get 7 gallons of Fiji water.
Is water the most important element of home brewing and what is the best water you ha
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filthyastronaut
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It's hard to say if a single element of your process is the most important element of homebrewing, because I'd say your process is the most important element. The beer is the sum of its parts. If you have great water but you're fermenting 6-row at 80 degrees with S-04 without sanitizing your equipment, your beer is gonna be garbage. I'd even say that unless your city has really bad water for brewing, you are better served getting into water chemistry after looking at everything else in your process. Here in Fort Collins we have great, soft water without chlorine, and many award-winning breweries use it without any treatment for a huge variety of beer styles. It may be more essential if you go just east of us to Timnath. So I'd say it is not the most important element of homebrewing or brewing in general.
OP
OP
applescrap
Be the ball!
How could this post have one reply and that reply is to say that process is important? I'm starting to think that this thread says everything anybody would need to know about homebrewers and this forum.
SlanginDueces
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Unless your water taste bad coming out of the tap, it probably isn't an issue. I would perfect everything else and then to take your already good beer to the next level get into water chemistry. My water sucks and tastes like chlorine. I just use RO water with simple additions. You don't need to be a rocket scientist with all the free spreadsheets out there.
Also your post only had one reply because it was a pretty terribly worded/misspelled question.
Also your post only had one reply because it was a pretty terribly worded/misspelled question.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I believe that what is being implied is that if your process is not in control it will not matter as much with regard to whether or not your water chemistry is in control.
Also, plenty of history indicates that one water chemistry does not fit all styles. Water chemistry is merely a variable (as is process control).
Another series of Brulosophy 'like' experiments are knocking at your doorstep.
Also, plenty of history indicates that one water chemistry does not fit all styles. Water chemistry is merely a variable (as is process control).
Another series of Brulosophy 'like' experiments are knocking at your doorstep.
I believe water makes a difference, and depending on the quality of your tap water, going to RO+salts can make a BIG difference.
I'm not going to agree without reserve that it is the "most" important element. I made good beer with bad water for years. Switching to RO+salts put it over the top, yes, but getting my process down with everything else was IMHO as or more important than water.
I wouldn't suggest Fiji. As mentioned, one water chemistry is not ideal for every style of beer. And you don't know what's in Fiji water without getting it tested. And of course it's expensive. Granted, I know that question about Fiji water was in jest, but for anyone that brews regularly and really cares about their water, an RO system will pay for itself over time compared to buying things like those 5 gallon bottles of spring water at the grocery store.
But if your water sucks, and if an RO is out of reach, those 5 gallon spring water bottles are a good solution. Even better is the distilled or RO water dispensers at many grocery stores, and then add salts to your preferred water chemistry.
So yes, water is important. Very important. If you already have good water, then there's no reason to mess around with water, and you're lucky. If you're like me and your tap water isn't good, then going to RO+salts or even bottled spring water will make a noticeable improvement to your beer.
I'm not going to agree without reserve that it is the "most" important element. I made good beer with bad water for years. Switching to RO+salts put it over the top, yes, but getting my process down with everything else was IMHO as or more important than water.
I wouldn't suggest Fiji. As mentioned, one water chemistry is not ideal for every style of beer. And you don't know what's in Fiji water without getting it tested. And of course it's expensive. Granted, I know that question about Fiji water was in jest, but for anyone that brews regularly and really cares about their water, an RO system will pay for itself over time compared to buying things like those 5 gallon bottles of spring water at the grocery store.
But if your water sucks, and if an RO is out of reach, those 5 gallon spring water bottles are a good solution. Even better is the distilled or RO water dispensers at many grocery stores, and then add salts to your preferred water chemistry.
So yes, water is important. Very important. If you already have good water, then there's no reason to mess around with water, and you're lucky. If you're like me and your tap water isn't good, then going to RO+salts or even bottled spring water will make a noticeable improvement to your beer.
Carbon is the most important element in brewing. Satisfied?
Water may or may not be the single most important element in brewing, but for me it's the most interesting element, and fun too. By the way, is it still fair to say that brewing water is the last element of brewing that homebrewers try?
I don't think water is the most important part of home brewing, I think the correct processes and ingredients coming together to create synergy is what makes excellent beer.
I have very drinkable water but it changes seasonally and sometime weekly, so for reproducibility I put together a RO system and add salts. According to the water report it is also better suited for amber beers than the lighter colored beer I normally brew which helped me make the switch.
I have very drinkable water but it changes seasonally and sometime weekly, so for reproducibility I put together a RO system and add salts. According to the water report it is also better suited for amber beers than the lighter colored beer I normally brew which helped me make the switch.
bstway
Member
My water is very drinkable and changes frequently. The past six months I've been amending my water to better meet particular styles. Unfortunately, I've become obsessed with brewing quickly as possible and skirting most conventional wisdom. So, my last batch went back to straight out of the tap. If I can't discern the difference between it and a previous batch of the same beer made with "better water" I'm scrapping the water adjustment thing too.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Sweetened sprouted grass seed juice perhaps. The old saying was: "People make wort, yeast makes beer."
As to water, the best natural source I've ever brewed with was artesian spring water with analyticals as follow:
Ca 38 ppm
Mg 5.8 ppm
Cl 65 ppm
SO4 14 ppm
Na 18 ppm
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 52 ppm
pH 6.8
I made some spectacular tasting Bohemian Pilsners with that water. For other styles I added extra minerals.
https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/
Question... You say your water is drinkable and changes frequently. However you've been "amending" it for particular styles.
How do you know what your water is coming out of the tap? What are you doing to change it? It doesn't *sound* like you're describing starting with RO and building from scratch.
If you don't know your water profile going in, it's tough to say whether your amendments are making the water better or worse.
I read that in Palmer's book when I started and since my water tastes great, I figured I was good to go. As I learned more and more, I was given to send a sample of my water to Ward's in Nebraska. Guess what? Great water if I'm brewing a Stout, terrible water for most everything else.
And yet, it tastes great!
I have a theory that those who say water doesn't matter much were just lucky in that their local water happened to be a match for the styles they're brewing.
Water matters a great deal. But so do a lot of other things, any one of which can take a great beer and turn it into a dumper.
SlanginDueces
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Not saying it doesn't matter...just saying that most new brewers have much bigger problems to fix before worrying about water chemistry.
Bilsch
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Maybe true but then again it's not terribly difficult, or expensive, to get ~8 gallons of RO water anymore these days.
SlanginDueces
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Norselord
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The synergy between all the elements is most important. Its how you combine grain, hops, water, and yeast. You can't say one is more important than the other.
All of the ingredients must be high quality. Once you have good quality ingredients, it is about how you combine them to make them work together. The whole is greater than the parts.
P.S. i suspect we are being trolled.
All of the ingredients must be high quality. Once you have good quality ingredients, it is about how you combine them to make them work together. The whole is greater than the parts.
P.S. i suspect we are being trolled.
My municipal water must be exceptional. I run it through a carbon filter. No campden or anything else. I make very good beers of almost any style with it. I got a Ward Labs analysis and made adjustments on 2 batches. They were not significantly different from any of the others. I am going to move to another state so things may change drastically...... We'll see. I am starting to look at water to see if I can make my very good beers even better.
RO water +10. Start with a clean slate and go from there. Don't leave it to luck. Luck is what uninformed people rely on.
I noticed an interesting this this year with my water... it went from 110 ppm to 330ppm over the course of a few months, and now its trending down. At last check it was around 270ppm. That's a huge difference!!!
With RO you take out 97% of everything so you're left with negligible minerals, even for poor source water. It also filters out nearly all chemical contaminants you don't want to consume.
RO systems are cheap, easy to install for home brewers, and can also provide great drinking water.
I noticed an interesting this this year with my water... it went from 110 ppm to 330ppm over the course of a few months, and now its trending down. At last check it was around 270ppm. That's a huge difference!!!
With RO you take out 97% of everything so you're left with negligible minerals, even for poor source water. It also filters out nearly all chemical contaminants you don't want to consume.
RO systems are cheap, easy to install for home brewers, and can also provide great drinking water.
110ppm what? How did you notice this and how are you following this trend? Really curious, I'm using water authority published data for my neighborhood and that data shows decent fluctuation over course of the year. It's pretty soft all around with almost no sulfite though so I seem to get away with hitting hoppy beer with gypsum and malty beer with cacl2 but remain curious.
110ppm TDS. I have an inline TDS meter on my RO system. Cost about $20 and change off amazon (HM Digital DM-1). Changes daily. I know my source water can be a blend of different sources depending upon the season.
I don't really care what exactly the make-up is since i reject better than 95% of it, so the end result is ~10ppm, which is negligible for anything of interest.
Singletrack
Because it's judgement that defeats us.
In conclusion, process is important.
I have a question: any brewers out there that start with their tap water and create a recipe based on the available profile? As opposed to creating the recipe first or buying RO water. That's a brewer I would like to meet.
I can tell ya that Fiji water doesn't mean great beer, but I drank a ton of it anyway.
bstway
Member
All of the numbers are available through the municipality. There usually is a slight difference with each update. I use a combination of Bru'n Water and BeerSmith for adjustments. Not as scientific as most would do but I'm not really that concerned about it.
StewMakesBrew
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Well, I'm blessed with living in a city with what is said to be some of the best municipal waters in the world - Chicago. I literally brew straight from the tap - I don't do anything with additives or anything else.
That said, if you live in an area that has a chlorine taste in the water, try just filling a couple of 5 gallon buckets full of water and let them "out gas" overnight - the chlorine will evaporate off the water and leave it relatively chlorine free.
The next thing you can try is buying reverse osmosis water in 5 gallon reusable bottles from your local grocery store (if they do that - mine stopped doing it awhile ago but Menards still offers it).
Adding a bit of gypsum to your water to harden it a bit if you live in an area with naturally soft water can also help. I use about a teaspoon of gypsum is some of my beers.
That said, if you live in an area that has a chlorine taste in the water, try just filling a couple of 5 gallon buckets full of water and let them "out gas" overnight - the chlorine will evaporate off the water and leave it relatively chlorine free.
The next thing you can try is buying reverse osmosis water in 5 gallon reusable bottles from your local grocery store (if they do that - mine stopped doing it awhile ago but Menards still offers it).
Adding a bit of gypsum to your water to harden it a bit if you live in an area with naturally soft water can also help. I use about a teaspoon of gypsum is some of my beers.
Absolutely not. This thread came as an offshoot of the VERY long Brulosophy thread where we were debating water amongst other things. So while I disagree with applescrap on HOW important water is, it's a sincere thread. No trolling.
Just to clarify, overnight will work for chlorine, but will NOT work for chloramine. More and more municipalities are going to chloramine for this exact reason -- they can use less of it and it won't dissipate as easily.
If you have chloramine, it's much harder to get rid of by either leaving water out overnight or by boiling. That's where campden tablets come in (they'll neutralize either one basically immediately).
So everyone if they're using tap water should inquire with their local water source to understand the treatment used. Either chlorine or chloramine can result in phenols that you don't want in the finished product, and you should take the necessary steps to remove them from your water prior to brewing.
There's a funny thing about how the brewing community (if you can call it that) approaches water. I'm still new enough that I remember very clearly trying to figure this out, and wondering why it was as hard as it is.
What I wanted was a recipe, including water, that I could reverse-engineer of sorts. In other words, have a recipe such as for my California Common where I'd start w/ RO water, and then here are the amendments given the grain bill and amounts. I'd then go back and figure out why it was a good water composition. And I'd brew good beer.
When I started--and I have a Ward's report, TDS meter, RO system, pH meter, so I didn't skimp on trying to understand it--it was almost as if people wanted to make it as hard to understand as possible.
One well-known water expert seems to revel in making obtuse water posts. Even went so far as to say perhaps people shouldn't be able to post (i.e., ask questions) in threads about water until they had a minimal base knowledge. I found that revealing, to say the least.
A local homebrewer with 20+ years of experience gave me some general guidelines, but no specific ones. It seemed clear to me that it was a "I had to learn it the hard way" approach instead of a "here's something to get you started, and why."
So I've had to learn it the hard way. It's an inefficient way to be sure. What bothered me was that if I had to build up water myself without experience doing it, how could I be sure I was doing it correctly? If the beer didn't turn out, was it my water or something else?
If I was to help people learn to do all-grain and get their water right, I'd probably post 3-4 recipes, along with how to adjust the water. Let them brew a couple, get it right, then figure out why the recipe for the water was correct. I've taught a local guy how to brew all-grain, and for starters I just gave him the water amendments so he could focus on process. I can't imagine how he would have fared if he'd just followed the "if it tastes good it'll brew good beer" advice.
This seems to be the last great frontier, and we certainly don't do much to make it easy.
What I wanted was a recipe, including water, that I could reverse-engineer of sorts. In other words, have a recipe such as for my California Common where I'd start w/ RO water, and then here are the amendments given the grain bill and amounts. I'd then go back and figure out why it was a good water composition. And I'd brew good beer.
When I started--and I have a Ward's report, TDS meter, RO system, pH meter, so I didn't skimp on trying to understand it--it was almost as if people wanted to make it as hard to understand as possible.
One well-known water expert seems to revel in making obtuse water posts. Even went so far as to say perhaps people shouldn't be able to post (i.e., ask questions) in threads about water until they had a minimal base knowledge. I found that revealing, to say the least.
A local homebrewer with 20+ years of experience gave me some general guidelines, but no specific ones. It seemed clear to me that it was a "I had to learn it the hard way" approach instead of a "here's something to get you started, and why."
So I've had to learn it the hard way. It's an inefficient way to be sure. What bothered me was that if I had to build up water myself without experience doing it, how could I be sure I was doing it correctly? If the beer didn't turn out, was it my water or something else?
If I was to help people learn to do all-grain and get their water right, I'd probably post 3-4 recipes, along with how to adjust the water. Let them brew a couple, get it right, then figure out why the recipe for the water was correct. I've taught a local guy how to brew all-grain, and for starters I just gave him the water amendments so he could focus on process. I can't imagine how he would have fared if he'd just followed the "if it tastes good it'll brew good beer" advice.
This seems to be the last great frontier, and we certainly don't do much to make it easy.
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A high quality charcoal filter will also remove chloramine
I agree with that, and although I think it's starting to get better, it's still not "easy".
I use the Bru'n'Water spreadsheet and basically just use their descriptors of "Pale bitter", "Yellow malty", etc and then "Pale Ale" for anything really hoppy. And I adjust the salt additions to get the numbers as close to right as I can.
I still don't understand the lactic acid addition though. I used my spreadsheet and a homebrew club buddy used his method (forget which one it was) and his called for 3x the amount of lactic acid in the mash as Bru'n'Water did. I have no idea why... I have a pH meter, but I don't have any calibrating solution so I haven't used it. I've just gone with the assumption that since I'm starting with RO, using the water spreadsheet recommendation should be "close enough". But then when two different spreadsheets gave a 3x difference in acid addition, it threw me for a loop.
But here is one area where I stand by my assertion that the difference between "bad" water and "good enough" water is huge, but the difference between "good enough" water and "ideal" water is probably not so huge. So if I'm basically starting with RO and everything else is "in the ballpark", I'm cool with that. My beers made a noticeable jump just by going to RO and being in the ballpark, so I'm happy with the outcome.
IMHO, close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and brewing water.
It does reveal that there are different types of home brewers out there.
To be fair there were a lot of people that were trying to be helpful, but giving blatantly wrong advice. They didn't know it because they weren't knowledgeable enough in the subject. They were just repeating tidbits they had heard elsewhere. For a lot of water situations you can follow simple rules. Others are vastly more complex and require more knowledge and understanding. I don't see what's wrong with wanting people to not spread incorrect information.
I agree....and I should have been more specific as to the instance to which I was referring.
The "minimal water knowledge" referred not to people providing advice, but people asking questions. As if you should have had to pass a quiz validating your legitimacy in asking questions.
Great way to turn people off.
Of all the ingredients we typically use, water is the "mystery" ingredient because it doesn't come with a label. The municipal water report is published annually and gives ranges for many values. The water varies seasonally, and sometimes significantly.
Water language is "different" and can be confusing without a chemistry background. The hardest part is knowing what you are starting with, there are plenty of tools that will help make adjustments and predict final concentrations and pH effects but you have start with something reliable, and hopefully accurate.
I am another that starts with RO water from a local water store and builds it up for my brews. I don't brew porters or stouts so I really don't have a lot of variation in my water for all the different beers I brew. I have a general profile for Pale Ale and all of it's variations, and another profile that I use for my Belgian beers and lagers and that's about it.
My take-away from talking to several pro's is that Calcium is the magic brewing ingredient:
Decreases mash pH which results in
◦Increased fermentability
◦Improved extract
◦Increased FAN and soluble nitrogen
◦Quicker runoff
◦Reduced phenol (tannin) extraction in mash
Non pH related benefits:
Protects alpha amylase from thermal degredation
◦Improves kettle break
◦Reduces color pick-up in the boil
◦Improves yeast flocculation
◦Removes oxalate reducing haze/gushing/beerstone
Also:
Hardness = Ca + Mg and is not bad
Alkalinity = Carbonate content and is bad and can be reduced with boiling or acid
pH of water isn’t important, pH of mash is
Know your water if you intend to change it
Don’t stress about it!!! (add some gyp or CaCl2)
And you can easily predict pH effects with a quick RA calculation:
Burton on Trent
•CO3(-2) 141 ppm
•Ca(+2) 268 ppm
•Mg(+2) 62 ppm
RA= ppmHCO3/61-(ppmCa(+2)/70+ ppmMg(+2)/84)
RA= 141/61-(268/70+ 62/84)
RA= −2.26
pH impact = −2.26x 0.08
pH impact = -0.18
negative RA will decrease pH (more acidic)
positive RA will increase pH (more alkaline)
It doesn't have to get more complicated than that.
Water language is "different" and can be confusing without a chemistry background. The hardest part is knowing what you are starting with, there are plenty of tools that will help make adjustments and predict final concentrations and pH effects but you have start with something reliable, and hopefully accurate.
I am another that starts with RO water from a local water store and builds it up for my brews. I don't brew porters or stouts so I really don't have a lot of variation in my water for all the different beers I brew. I have a general profile for Pale Ale and all of it's variations, and another profile that I use for my Belgian beers and lagers and that's about it.
My take-away from talking to several pro's is that Calcium is the magic brewing ingredient:
Decreases mash pH which results in
◦Increased fermentability
◦Improved extract
◦Increased FAN and soluble nitrogen
◦Quicker runoff
◦Reduced phenol (tannin) extraction in mash
Non pH related benefits:
Protects alpha amylase from thermal degredation
◦Improves kettle break
◦Reduces color pick-up in the boil
◦Improves yeast flocculation
◦Removes oxalate reducing haze/gushing/beerstone
Also:
Hardness = Ca + Mg and is not bad
Alkalinity = Carbonate content and is bad and can be reduced with boiling or acid
pH of water isn’t important, pH of mash is
Know your water if you intend to change it
Don’t stress about it!!! (add some gyp or CaCl2)
And you can easily predict pH effects with a quick RA calculation:
Burton on Trent
•CO3(-2) 141 ppm
•Ca(+2) 268 ppm
•Mg(+2) 62 ppm
RA= ppmHCO3/61-(ppmCa(+2)/70+ ppmMg(+2)/84)
RA= 141/61-(268/70+ 62/84)
RA= −2.26
pH impact = −2.26x 0.08
pH impact = -0.18
negative RA will decrease pH (more acidic)
positive RA will increase pH (more alkaline)
It doesn't have to get more complicated than that.
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Singletrack
Because it's judgement that defeats us.
To add to your information on chloramine: Chloramine is a weaker disinfectant than chlorine that is used more often now because chlorine forms cancer-causing compounds, such as trihalomethanes (THM) and haloacetic acids (HAA), more readily than chloramine.
My chloramine removing filter just reduced it. It was one step up from being unmeasurable but it was still there. I only found out because a beer judge said he could taste it and I thought he was full of crap so I got a test kit. If you are trying to remove chloramine by filtering it you should check/test it or just toss in some Camden tablets for insurance.
It also requires a slow rate flow rate to give long contact time. If you have a high output RO system and a high reject rate you may not have a low enough flow.
NoIguanaForZ
Well-Known Member
No.
Water is a compound.
Water is a compound.
