Is water the most important element of home brewing and what is the best water you ha

[mongoose33]

There's a funny thing about how the brewing community (if you can call it that) approaches water. I'm still new enough that I remember very clearly trying to figure this out, and wondering why it was as hard as it is.

What I wanted was a recipe, including water, that I could reverse-engineer of sorts. In other words, have a recipe such as for my California Common where I'd start w/ RO water, and then here are the amendments given the grain bill and amounts. I'd then go back and figure out why it was a good water composition. And I'd brew good beer.

When I started--and I have a Ward's report, TDS meter, RO system, pH meter, so I didn't skimp on trying to understand it--it was almost as if people wanted to make it as hard to understand as possible.

One well-known water expert seems to revel in making obtuse water posts. Even went so far as to say perhaps people shouldn't be able to post (i.e., ask questions) in threads about water until they had a minimal base knowledge. I found that revealing, to say the least.

A local homebrewer with 20+ years of experience gave me some general guidelines, but no specific ones. It seemed clear to me that it was a "I had to learn it the hard way" approach instead of a "here's something to get you started, and why."

So I've had to learn it the hard way. It's an inefficient way to be sure. What bothered me was that if I had to build up water myself without experience doing it, how could I be sure I was doing it correctly? If the beer didn't turn out, was it my water or something else?

If I was to help people learn to do all-grain and get their water right, I'd probably post 3-4 recipes, along with how to adjust the water. Let them brew a couple, get it right, then figure out why the recipe for the water was correct. I've taught a local guy how to brew all-grain, and for starters I just gave him the water amendments so he could focus on process. I can't imagine how he would have fared if he'd just followed the "if it tastes good it'll brew good beer" advice.

This seems to be the last great frontier, and we certainly don't do much to make it easy.

 

[helibrewer]

A high quality charcoal filter will also remove chloramine

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

This seems to be the last great frontier, and we certainly don't do much to make it easy.

I agree with that, and although I think it's starting to get better, it's still not "easy".

I use the Bru'n'Water spreadsheet and basically just use their descriptors of "Pale bitter", "Yellow malty", etc and then "Pale Ale" for anything really hoppy. And I adjust the salt additions to get the numbers as close to right as I can.

I still don't understand the lactic acid addition though. I used my spreadsheet and a homebrew club buddy used his method (forget which one it was) and his called for 3x the amount of lactic acid in the mash as Bru'n'Water did. I have no idea why... I have a pH meter, but I don't have any calibrating solution so I haven't used it. I've just gone with the assumption that since I'm starting with RO, using the water spreadsheet recommendation should be "close enough". But then when two different spreadsheets gave a 3x difference in acid addition, it threw me for a loop.

But here is one area where I stand by my assertion that the difference between "bad" water and "good enough" water is huge, but the difference between "good enough" water and "ideal" water is probably not so huge. So if I'm basically starting with RO and everything else is "in the ballpark", I'm cool with that. My beers made a noticeable jump just by going to RO and being in the ballpark, so I'm happy with the outcome.

IMHO, close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and brewing water.

 

[schematix]

One well-known water expert seems to revel in making obtuse water posts. Even went so far as to say perhaps people shouldn't be able to post in threads about water until they had a minimal base knowledge. I found that revealing, to say the least.

It does reveal that there are different types of home brewers out there.

To be fair there were a lot of people that were trying to be helpful, but giving blatantly wrong advice. They didn't know it because they weren't knowledgeable enough in the subject. They were just repeating tidbits they had heard elsewhere. For a lot of water situations you can follow simple rules. Others are vastly more complex and require more knowledge and understanding. I don't see what's wrong with wanting people to not spread incorrect information.

 

[mongoose33]

It does reveal that there are different types of home brewers out there.

To be fair there were a lot of people that were trying to be helpful, but giving blatantly wrong advice. They didn't know it because they weren't knowledgeable enough in the subject. They were just repeating tidbits they had heard elsewhere. For a lot of water situations you can follow simple rules. Others are vastly more complex and require more knowledge and understanding. I don't see what's wrong with wanting people to not spread incorrect information.

I agree....and I should have been more specific as to the instance to which I was referring.

The "minimal water knowledge" referred not to people providing advice, but people asking questions. As if you should have had to pass a quiz validating your legitimacy in asking questions.

Great way to turn people off.

 

[helibrewer]

Of all the ingredients we typically use, water is the "mystery" ingredient because it doesn't come with a label. The municipal water report is published annually and gives ranges for many values. The water varies seasonally, and sometimes significantly.

Water language is "different" and can be confusing without a chemistry background. The hardest part is knowing what you are starting with, there are plenty of tools that will help make adjustments and predict final concentrations and pH effects but you have start with something reliable, and hopefully accurate.

I am another that starts with RO water from a local water store and builds it up for my brews. I don't brew porters or stouts so I really don't have a lot of variation in my water for all the different beers I brew. I have a general profile for Pale Ale and all of it's variations, and another profile that I use for my Belgian beers and lagers and that's about it.

My take-away from talking to several pro's is that Calcium is the magic brewing ingredient:

Decreases mash pH which results in
◦Increased fermentability
◦Improved extract
◦Increased FAN and soluble nitrogen
◦Quicker runoff
◦Reduced phenol (tannin) extraction in mash
Non pH related benefits:
Protects alpha amylase from thermal degredation
◦Improves kettle break
◦Reduces color pick-up in the boil
◦Improves yeast flocculation
◦Removes oxalate reducing haze/gushing/beerstone

Also:
Hardness = Ca + Mg and is not bad
Alkalinity = Carbonate content and is bad and can be reduced with boiling or acid
pH of water isn’t important, pH of mash is
Know your water if you intend to change it
Don’t stress about it!!! (add some gyp or CaCl2)

And you can easily predict pH effects with a quick RA calculation:

Burton on Trent
•CO3(-2) 141 ppm
•Ca(+2) 268 ppm
•Mg(+2) 62 ppm
RA= ppmHCO3/61-(ppmCa(+2)/70+ ppmMg(+2)/84)
RA= 141/61-(268/70+ 62/84)
RA= −2.26
pH impact = −2.26x 0.08
pH impact = -0.18

negative RA will decrease pH (more acidic)
positive RA will increase pH (more alkaline)

It doesn't have to get more complicated than that.

 

[Singletrack]

Just to clarify, overnight will work for chlorine, but will NOT work for chloramine. More and more municipalities are going to chloramine for this exact reason -- they can use less of it and it won't dissipate as easily.

To add to your information on chloramine: Chloramine is a weaker disinfectant than chlorine that is used more often now because chlorine forms cancer-causing compounds, such as trihalomethanes (THM) and haloacetic acids (HAA), more readily than chloramine.

 

[Bilsch]

I would like to thank certain people with the hardcore water knowledge that take their valuable time to explain the technical details.

 

[ba-brewer]

A high quality charcoal filter will also remove chloramine

My chloramine removing filter just reduced it. It was one step up from being unmeasurable but it was still there. I only found out because a beer judge said he could taste it and I thought he was full of crap so I got a test kit. If you are trying to remove chloramine by filtering it you should check/test it or just toss in some Camden tablets for insurance.

It also requires a slow rate flow rate to give long contact time. If you have a high output RO system and a high reject rate you may not have a low enough flow.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

No.

Water is a compound.

 

[Jwin]

How could this post have one reply and that reply is to say that process is important? I'm starting to think that this thread says everything anybody would need to know about homebrewers and this forum.

Honestly, I thought it was kinda a joke/troll just to see response. That is the world we live in now.
Didn't realise it was so meta.

So, in that regard. Yes, water is an important ingredient, but I view it akin to cooking.
If you have a dish that requires 5 ingredients and a specific cooking cycle and you botch one of those 6 things, you don't end with the desired product. Now, if you nail 4-5 of those things, but miss one, it is not inedible. But it is not a pinnacle dish.
Depending on your pallet, ability, and resources, you may settle on edible. You may also strive for pinnacle.

 

[helibrewer]

My chloramine removing filter just reduced it. It was one step up from being unmeasurable but it was still there. I only found out because a beer judge said he could taste it and I thought he was full of crap so I got a test kit. If you are trying to remove chloramine by filtering it you should check/test it or just toss in some Camden tablets for insurance.

It also requires a slow rate flow rate to give long contact time. If you have a high output RO system and a high reject rate you may not have a low enough flow.

Good to know, I'll have to ask the breweries up here what they are doing. Vinnie at RRBC told me they just filter muni water, no RO and no Camden because they don't want to have to test for sulphites for labeling purposes.

 

[applescrap]

Honestly, I thought it was kinda a joke/troll just to see response.

You now have the infamous and dubious honor of being the second person to mention the word troll on a thread about the importance of water in a Homebrew forum. Beer is 90% water. What kind of misguided and uninformed thinking could lead someone to believe that a thread about something that creates 90% of the product is trolling? How out-of-touch and overly process-driven does one have to be to think water discussion in beer making is trolling? Jwin and others, i am sure we probably could have enjoyable talks about other things, and I would like to keep that open. I guess what I am saying is, in brewing talk it could get more heated, but I hope you know, I have no problems with you.

 

[Jwin]

I think it might be. Where can I get 7 gallons of Fiji water.

The OP is why, hence my first response.
Not exactly a post of much depth.

 

[applescrap]

Fair enough, you posted the website for the water, thanks. At only 80 dollars per batch it is viable . I am sure some tap water with mineral adjustments would be better or the same, right?

 

[applescrap]

Oops

View attachment 1503031895045.jpg

View attachment 1503031901984.jpg

 

[Pkrd]

You really should add a pinch of kava if you want the authentic Fiji water experience.

 

[applescrap]

From the mouth or just stirred in?

Better maybe to drink straight kava, then fiji water made beer, then run around Viti levu beaches naked. Actually, come to think of it, for authentic fiji experience spam would go in the mash if i am correct. They love canned meats, wife majored in anthropology and i read some of her books.

 

[Morrey]

Is water the most important element of home brewing? I'll say that water (management) is probably the last focal point that a new brewer will tackle. It has been said that your initial focus should be on process, sanitation and fermentation temperature control. Ok...semi-agree. Some can get away with tap water, others buy RO water...you know the options. Finally, after you get all the other stuff figured out, the light bulb comes on and you dive into water makeup which challenges your chemistry background...or lack of it perhaps.

Water can really fine tune and/or tweak nuances you wish for in a beer. In NEIPAs I have been brewing, reversing SO4/Cl ratios can do interesting things for your beers. Now we are seeing the impact "water" can have on the product.

Is water the most important element of home brewing? I'd vote for sanitation and fermentation temperature contols to be more important or critical. Water is quite important for sure, yet that knowledge bank may be more akin to getting a master's degree in home brewing. Agree or not, water is often, but not always, the last great frontier a brewer will explore.

 

[Jwin]

The longer the thread goes, the more unsure I become about it being a serious conversation. B)

 

[applescrap]

I absolutely agree that water thinking tends to come later, IF EVER, in brewing thinking. And I guess I am saying it should come earlier than that, perhaps even first! I dont have a hole or scratch in my kettle and brew manually. After boil and cool, I pick up, up to 11 gallons sometimes and dump it in the fermenter.

 

[Jwin]

I think ph and chloramine/chlorine (if needed) should be addressed pretty early in the learning process. Water science isn't easy for everyone. I have a very mechanical mind, great at math, love science yet I have and am bad at chemistry. I don't hate it for what it is, as I find it very interesting. I just have trouble wrapping my head around it sometimes. I've been through much of the Water book, read countless things online, and feel I understand it, to an extent. That being said, I still have issues at time. There's a bit of voodoo in it all as well. I think telling a new brewer to go head first into bru'n water because it is so important can be a daunting and overwhelming task for them.
In sum, a new brewer should make sure their water isn't bad. And experienced brewer should make sure their water is good.

 

[brewcat]

No. My tap water works well. If a new brewer is starting with extract, water is less important.

I'd advise a new brewer towards fermentation temp control.

 

[applescrap]

No. My tap water works well. If a new brewer is starting with extract, water is less important.

I'd advise a new brewer towards fermentation temp control.

Pretty much disagree with this whole heartedly. Here in denver we have some of the best tap water in the country. Denver water even has a home brew page and I still strongly disagree.

 

[schematix]

I think the home brewing community, and especially new brewers, are disproportionately impacted by ugly baby syndrome when it comes to their beer.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I don't understand why people think water is so hard, or that you need a BS in Chemistry in order to handle it.

The calculators are pretty simple. I've used Bru'n'water but I'm potentially searching for alternates. But with Bru'n'water, I basically do the following:

1. Pick my beer target profile (i.e. yellow bitter, amber malty, "pale ale" for anything hoppy, etc). Basically that gives you an idea of what you're trying to hit.
2. Start with my own water profile (RO set to 100% "dilution" since I use only RO.
3. From there I just play around with the values of each salt. It's nice that they identify the molecular makeup, ie Gypsum (CaSO4) is Calcium and Sulfate, while Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) is Calcium and Chloride). For every mineral, there are at least two chemicals that can supply it, so if adding too much of one puts one number out of whack, you can substitute in one of the other salts instead. I work with these until I hit numbers that are basically close to the target in my finished water profile.
4. Figure out acid addition (this one I'm still trying to work out as I understand Bru'n'water might underestimate the acid needed).
5. Brew!

My scale isn't absolutely perfect to tenths of a gram anyway, so undoubtedly my actual finished water profile is just "close" to target. But it's close enough. And playing around with the numbers in the calculator is frankly pretty darn simple.

 

[processhead]

Most of what I have read about water for brewing is basically, "if your water tastes good from the tap, it is capable of brewing good beer".

Sure there are qualifiers to that statement, but I think it is generally true.

I also think that to say water is the single most important component of beer is an overstatement and an oversimplification of what brewing is about.

Good water is just a single starting point among many raw materials that go into the entire process, with the end result being a beer that can fall anywhere along an entire spectrum of quality and drinkability.

 

[schematix]

Most of what I have read about water for brewing is basically, "if your water tastes good from the tap, it is capable of brewing good beer".

Sure there are qualifiers to that statement, but I think it is generally true.

No this is not generally true. It's sometimes true and sometimes not.

 

[mongoose33]

Most of what I have read about water for brewing is basically, "if your water tastes good from the tap, it is capable of brewing good beer".

Sure there are qualifiers to that statement, but I think it is generally true.

No this is not generally true. It's sometimes true and sometimes not.

This^ this^ this^

I fell for the "if your water tastes good" myth when I started brewing. Well. It's very alkaline, suitable (if all-grain) only for stouts.

I don't care for stouts.

My first three beers were extract brews, and none of them were particularly good. One was not terrible. I attribute much of that to not understanding water. For instance, I had no chlorine control.

I think that part of the reason some people believe this myth is that their water just happens to be ok for the beer they're brewing. Put 'em in my town, with my water, and I think they'd find it's a different story.

 

[triethylborane]

Actually, come to think of it, for authentic fiji experience spam would go in the mash if i am correct. They love canned meats, wife majored in anthropology and i read some of her books.

The Polynesian (and micronesian etc) palate for spam, canned ham, and the like is a relatively recent development in the anthropological record, c. 1941. Ive traveled to Fiji and spam is not prevalent there like it is in Hawaii, A. Samoa or even Guam. Black label canned hams fly off the shelves during the holidays. Near where I live in HI, you can pick up a spam musubi (fried spam on white rice with a garnish of seaweed) at a gas station or you can get it at Morimoto's, and sometimes at Roy's to go along with your filet.